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lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: New guy with questions

 	  jindoguy(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		  Lucien, This is getting pointless. The EAA will get back to me in a day or two and I'll post their reply. I need to check in with my airworthiness guy at the FSDO anyway, so I'll ask Jim, too, get his take and publish. 

If I'm wrong, and I'm not, I'll buy you a cold one sometime.



Rick

	




I don't agree that it's a pointless discussion, since it's kind of an important point - it's relevant to us in particular because we fly amateur built aircraft, so knowing the correct interp of the rules is pretty crucial for us.



In any case, you can't be right that noone other than the original builder of an amateur built aircraft can apply for the AW cert. for it, not only because aircraft have been certificated in these circumstances in the past but also because the regs don't require this to be case to my knowledge.



You are, of course, quite right that EAB is NOT available for any aircraft that CAN'T be shown to have been 51% amateur built - I don't want that point to get lost in the shuffle of this, and I fully support your point on that.

I also agree that there are probably a fair number of "fat-UL" uncertificated planes out there that won't pass EAB muster in this respect either.



This is a fact of the expiration of the so-called "(i) 1" ELSA provision that we've been discussing. 



But I am quarrelling with the misinterpretations that



a) EAB is not available for _any_ "fat-UL", _even if it can be shown to satisfy the EAB cert. requirements_ merely as a consequence of the expiration of "(i) 1" at the end of Jan. That's simply wrong, as none of the EAB regulations have changed substantively with the introduction of the ELSA category.



b) Noone other than the original builder can apply for and get an EAB cert. for an amateur built a/c (provided that documentation exists for that plane that it was in fact amateur built). Again I am reasonably sure that the regs support me on this, which is why I'm arguing the point. 



Of course, I could always be wrong in these cases, and I don't think I am, but if so I will of course retract my argument. Either way, hopefully the correct interp will come out in the end.



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

flymichigan(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:18 pm Post subject: New guy with questions

Rick,



Suppose I build a Kolb from a kit.  It is complete, but I have not registered it yet, or gotten an air worthiness cert.  Then I get hit by a bus and die.  Is it your opinion that the plane can never be registered??  Someone buying the plane did not hire it built.  They bought a plane that was built for recreational purposes.



Bryan Dever

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:06 pm Post subject: New guy with questions

If I were buying it, I'd ask your widow to get the experimental certificate, then I'd buy it. The other option would be to take off the covering and redo it, so I'd have a builder's log.

Look at it another way. You can go out and buy a Quicksilver kit, assemble it all yourself and the FAA would not give you an E-AB experimental certificate. You didn't do enough of the work to qualify as 51%. That's why you don't see Quicksilver listed on the approved kit list. 

If Lucien's logic was correct, why would there be an approved kit list at all?



Rick



On 9/2/07, flymichigan(at)comcast.net  (flymichigan(at)comcast.net) <flymichigan(at)comcast.net (flymichigan(at)comcast.net)> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: flymichigan(at)comcast.net (flymichigan(at)comcast.net)



Rick,



Suppose I build a Kolb from a kit.  It is complete, but I have not registered it yet, or gotten an air worthiness cert.  Then I get hit by a bus and die.  Is it your opinion that the plane can never be registered??  Someone buying the plane did not hire it built.  They bought a plane that was built for recreational purposes. 

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:59 am Post subject: Re: New guy with questions

Rick and Lucien,



Warning - Long Post.



Most of the posts by Rick are well thought out and I tend to agree with his conclusions/interpretations most of the time. However, on this one, I truly believe Lucien is correct. If Rick's interpretation was correct then no one could buy a completed (or nearly so)  pile of parts that has never been registered, then do the last few things to make it flyable and then get the E-A/B A/W certificate, because the guy who bought the un-registered vehicle (not yet an airplane) did not do 51% of the work. 



How many Kolbers have done something like this, i.e. bought someone else's partially finished kit and did less than 51% of the work and registered it as E-A/B? My guess is a lot have done this. If this were not the case there would be zero market for partially completed kits, which of course is not the case. The person who registers the aircraft as E-A/B does not have to be the builder. The person applying for the repairman certificate for this particular E-A/B does have to be the one or primary builder, if done by a group.



Another thing to remember/note. A flying vehicle (fat or skinny ul) that has never been registered is not an aircraft (by FAA's definition) until it is registered with the FAA and issued an A/W certificate of some kind. The fact that it has been flying (perhaps illegally, perhaps under the UL trainer exemption, perhaps as a legal UL) for years has nothing to do with whether it qualifies as a 51% aircraft when it is eventually registered. The option to register it and have its A/W certificate issued as an E-LSA expires next January. There is no time limit or expiration date for registering a qualifying 51% amateur built aircraft as such. Anyone flying this machine after that date if it is not registered with the FAA and/or not certificated in some way by the FAA, is operating illegally. Actually operating it today unless it is a legal UL or under the training exemption is illegal, as it always has been. The fact that a flying machine has been operated/flown illegally at any time in its past does not disqualify it for registration and certification as an E-A/B at some future date if it qualifies. 



One more thing: What a particular person at a particular FSDO says is virtually meaningless unless that person is the one who is doing the certification on the aircraft in question. Ignorance in the FSDOs is abundant, especially in the LSA area.



Lets not forget that E-A/B has not changed in any significant way in recent years. The E-LSA business is now a limited time only OPTION for those that can meet the requirements but not an obligation on the part of the owner of the flying machine in question. One might think of it as a limited time amnesty opportunity. The existence of this limited time only E-LSA option has nothing at all to do with the ongoing E-A/B rules. One has nothing to do with the other.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

flymichigan(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:07 am Post subject: New guy with questions

flymichigan(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:13 am Post subject: New guy with questions

My point was that SOMEBODY has to build it as a educational or recreational 

activity.  The regs do not say that YOU have to be the one to build it, unless 

you are wanting the repairman's cert.  Buying someone else's project does not 

mean that you hired it built.



I agree with you that you have to demonstrate that someone built at least 51% as 

a recreational or educational activity.



Bryan Dever



 You didn't do enough of the work to qualify as 51%. That's why

 	  Quote: 	
		   you don't see Quicksilver listed on the approved kit list.

 If Lucien's logic was correct, why would there be an approved kit list at

 all?


	




do not archive

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:23 am Post subject: New guy with questions

Since we're talking abstract scenarios, how about the guy who built an RV and tried to get it classified as a motor glider. He thought it was a great way to get around having to worry about a medical and still be able to fly fast. The RV flew, his hair brained idea, didn't. 

Show me the rule there. The RV had a motor, and every landing would have involved gliding. Why didn't he get the classification he wanted?

On the theoretical side........

I set up the Aeronautical Education Foundation. I'm the only paid employee, but I never touch the aircraft. I staff it with high school kids who are all unpaid interns. Can I pump out Cessna 150 clones and sell them to people ready to fly, without any kind of paperwork except a kit on how to license an E-AB? Why not? 

I'm a mad scientist and I figure out how to implant the design knowledge of Burt Rutan and the airplane building skills of Tony Bingelis into chimpanzees. The high school kids wised up and I had to restaff the foundation. Now can I build 150 clones and sell them to people ready to fly, without any kind of paperwork except a kit on how to license an E-AB? Why not? 

We could spend all day dreaming up far fetched ideas to try and beat the system, like talking heads on the noise trying to justify torturing detainees.

Say, isn't this how ultalights got fat, grew an extra seat and the LSA rules came about? 



Rick



On 9/3/07, Richard Girard <jindoguy(at)gmail.com (jindoguy(at)gmail.com)> wrote:[quote] If I were buying it, I'd ask your widow to get the experimental certificate, then I'd buy it. The other option would be to take off the covering and redo it, so I'd have a builder's log.

Look at it another way. You can go out and buy a Quicksilver kit, assemble it all yourself and the FAA would not give you an E-AB experimental certificate. You didn't do enough of the work to qualify as 51%. That's why you don't see Quicksilver listed on the approved kit list. 

If Lucien's logic was correct, why would there be an approved kit list at all?



Rick



On 9/2/07,  flymichigan(at)comcast.net  (flymichigan(at)comcast.net) <flymichigan(at)comcast.net (flymichigan(at)comcast.net)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		    --> Kolb-List message posted by: flymichigan(at)comcast.net (flymichigan(at)comcast.net)



Rick,



Suppose I build a Kolb from a kit.  It is complete, but I have not registered it yet, or gotten an air worthiness cert.  Then I get hit by a bus and die.  Is it your opinion that the plane can never be registered??  Someone buying the plane did not hire it built.  They bought a plane that was built for recreational purposes. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List  

takes on a whole new meaning 

when you live at the airport. 	


-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:31 am Post subject: New guy with questions

Bryan, We're not talking about taking over projects, that's done all the time. We're talking about buying a used, previously flying, unregistered aircraft and the buyer being allowed to get an E-AB certificate for it. 



Rick



On 9/3/07, flymichigan(at)comcast.net (flymichigan(at)comcast.net) <flymichigan(at)comcast.net  (flymichigan(at)comcast.net)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by:  flymichigan(at)comcast.net (flymichigan(at)comcast.net)



My point was that SOMEBODY has to build it as a educational or recreational

activity.  The regs do not say that YOU have to be the one to build it, unless

you are wanting the repairman's cert.  Buying someone else's project does not 

mean that you hired it built.



I agree with you that you have to demonstrate that someone built at least 51% as

a recreational or educational activity.



Bryan Dever



 You didn't do enough of the work to qualify as 51%. That's why 



	


-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:53 am Post subject: New guy with questions

Look out for Bus on road 

 

 Couldn't resist 

 

 Ellery In Maine 

 do not archive

**************************************

herbgh

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 145

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:17 am Post subject: New guy with questions

Best way to beat the system with a fat ul is to install a fake BRS   Law abiding, God fearing ,government despising  ,honest and  principiled  ...Herb 

  

   do not archive  

  

 On Mon, 3 Sep 2007 07:23:17 -0500 "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com (jindoguy(at)gmail.com)> writes:

 [quote]   Since we're talking abstract scenarios, how about the guy who built an RV    and tried to get it classified as a motor glider. He thought it was a great    way to get around having to worry about a medical and still be able to fly    fast. The RV flew, his hair brained idea, didn't. 

Show me the rule there.    The RV had a motor, and every landing would have involved gliding. Why didn't    he get the classification he wanted?

On the theoretical side........

I    set up the Aeronautical Education Foundation. I'm the only paid employee, but    I never touch the aircraft. I staff it with high school kids who are all    unpaid interns. Can I pump out Cessna 150 clones and sell them to people ready    to fly, without any kind of paperwork except a kit on how to license an E-AB?    Why not? 

I'm a mad scientist and I figure out how to implant the design    knowledge of Burt Rutan and the airplane building skills of Tony Bingelis into    chimpanzees. The high school kids wised up and I had to restaff the    foundation. Now can I build 150 clones and sell them to people ready to fly,    without any kind of paperwork except a kit on how to license an E-AB? Why not?    

We could spend all day dreaming up far fetched ideas to try and beat the    system, like talking heads on the noise trying to justify torturing    detainees.

Say, isn't this how ultalights got fat, grew an extra seat and    the LSA rules came about? 



Rick





   On 9/3/07, Richard    Girard <jindoguy(at)gmail.com (jindoguy(at)gmail.com)>    wrote:    	  Quote: 	
		  If      I were buying it, I'd ask your widow to get the experimental certificate,      then I'd buy it. The other option would be to take off the covering and redo      it, so I'd have a builder's log.

Look at it another way. You can go out      and buy a Quicksilver kit, assemble it all yourself and the FAA would not      give you an E-AB experimental certificate. You didn't do enough of the work      to qualify as 51%. That's why you don't see Quicksilver listed on the      approved kit list. 

If Lucien's logic was correct, why would there be an      approved kit list at all?



Rick     



     On 9/2/07, flymichigan(at)comcast.net       (flymichigan(at)comcast.net)<flymichigan(at)comcast.net (flymichigan(at)comcast.net)> wrote:      	  Quote: 	
		  -->        Kolb-List message posted by: flymichigan(at)comcast.net (flymichigan(at)comcast.net)



Rick,



Suppose I        build a Kolb from a kit.  It is complete, but I have not        registered it yet, or gotten an air worthiness cert.  Then I get        hit by a bus and die.  Is it your opinion that the plane can        never be registered??  Someone buying the plane did not hire it        built.  They bought a plane that was built for recreational        purposes. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List 

takes on a        whole new meaning 

when you live at the airport.      	


-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll      drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.   	  Quote: 	
		  



http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

matronics.com



	


	


    

[b]

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:57 am Post subject: Re: New guy with questions

 	  jindoguy(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		  Bryan, We're not talking about taking over projects, that's done all the time. We're talking about buying a used, previously flying, unregistered aircraft and the buyer being allowed to get an E-AB certificate for it. 



Rick

	




Well I'll be interested to hear what your sources say about this, but I don't see anything in the regs that special-case this, provided documentation exists for it that it was originally amateur built.



My titan was flown the first few hours as a registered UL trainer under the exemptions, but was later granted an Exp A/B AW cert. This was done by the original owner, but I don't see why it couldn't have been done by someone else later as long as the builders log and etc. changed hands in the sale.....



Anyway, this thread is probably dead now, so....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:00 pm Post subject: New guy with questions

At 08:23 AM 9/3/2007, Richard Girard wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Can I pump out Cessna 150 clones and sell them to people ready to fly, without any kind of paperwork except a kit on how to license an E-AB? Why not? 	


 Back when I was in college, a friend and I had a similar idea.  The plan was to build VariEzes five or ten at a time, form a flying club so the members would fly the required test time off, then sell them and start a new batch.  Couldn't see any reason why it wouldn't be legal, but kids often have impractical dreams.  The friend graduated and I never heard from him again.



                                 -Dana



 do not archive

 

 --

 --

 Children seldom misquote you. In fact, they usually repeat word for word what you shouldn't have said.    [quote][b]

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: New guy with questions

 	  Quote: 	
		    

We could spend all day dreaming up far fetched ideas to try and beat the    system, like talking heads on the noise trying to justify torturing    detainees.

	




As you've no doubt already noticed, the FARs are pretty vague in a lot of areas and frustratingly so. 

But, this is actually deliberate to allow a certain amount of latitude in the interpretation of the rules. If they specified absolutely everything, they'd be far too restrictive. 



Of course, then there's stuff like "...and anything else the Administrator may deem appropriate" in lots of places which is, er, probably too much latitude... 

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Say, isn't this how ultalights got fat, grew an extra seat and    the LSA rules came about? 

	




Actually, the LSA rules came about for different reasons, but that's another thread entirely...



do not archive



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

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