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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:38 am Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

> Then what you are saying is that the dissimilarities made it an invalid

 	  Quote: 	
		   test.  The only valid test is a before and after on your own aircraft.

 > Jack B. Hart FF004
	


Jack H:



No.................I am not saying the dissimilarities made it an invalid 

test.  Was merely pointing out the differences, primarily in weight, between 

Richard's mkIII and my mkIII.  On light aircraft, weight makes considerable 

difference in performance.



I think my old gal made a slendid showing flying side by side with a 

similar, but lighter, Kolb.



No thanks.  Have no desire to make a VG test on my airplane.  I am more than 

happy with the performance of my mkIII.



I never said I doubted VGs.  I have said I never found a need for them on 

it.  I have flown Homer's airplanes for a while and like the way he designed 

them, and the way they perform.



"How many dips in the mkIII wing?"  Only the one in the pilot's seat!  



Take care,



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:53 am Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

I tried VG's couldn't resist, But Didn't like the taste of em  

  

  Ellery in Maine 

 Building Mk3x

  

 do not archive

  

  



See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage.

  [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:05 am Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

Ellery:

  

 Try some Monterey Jack Cheese with jalopenos on the VGs.   Microwave for 40 seconds.  Better than tostistos.

  

 john h

 mkIII

 [quote]   I tried VG's couldn't resist, But Didn't like the taste of em     

    

    Ellery in Maine 

    

   DO NOT ARCHIVE

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Michael Sharp

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 118
Location: Oak Grove, MO (Kansas City)

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:19 am Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

Ellery, 

  

If you saute' them in SeaFoam and follow with some of Mr. Buford's Scotch they are pretty tasty... 

Mike

  

 PLEASE

 Do Not Archive



 ---

_________________
The air up there in the clouds is very pure and fine...And why shouldn't it be?-
--It is the same the angels breathe.
Mark Twain,
Roughing it' 1886

Mike

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:53 am Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

If you saute them in good black rum, they dissolve!

PLEASE

Do Not Archive



 [quote][b]

1planeguy(at)kilocharlie.
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:18 pm Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

With much fear of flogging this deceased horse a little more…I will tread on…reluctantly…I will tread on… (sigh)  

   

Regretfully, I was unable to make the Fri. morning flight from Lower Alabama to London, KY thanks to 20+ mph winds on the ground and 35+ at 3K all on the nose…if the flight was required for life saving measures or national security I would have soldiered on but for the mere matter of personal enjoyment and camaraderie amongst fellow brethren on the wing, I decided 5-ish hours of getting thrown around the cockpit trying to avoid internal injury from the seatbelts didn’t sound like a good use of a day off from work…heck neither did mowing the grass, but I degress…  

   

That said I didn’t get to witness this “test” (of sorts)…as has been stated already there were enough differences in this test to make the political polls look accurate   (Ever wonder how they can have 2 polls asking the same question and be 10 points off, yet each poll only has a 3 point margin of error?) I degress again…  

   

Having read the list of differences going on , weights, flaps/no flaps, power levels, alignment of the planets, etc., etc. etc.  (Mr. Pike was heading home was there luggage involved??? Might have negated some of the weight…who knows)  All that being said, I will state for the record what that “test” proved…that airplane nuts hanging around a flyin can think of fun ways to kill time   (My favorite has always been the feather duster toss and the bean bag toss at the cardboard targets.)  

   

Anyway I propose another “test” that will require no work whatsoever…Think back to the couple of dozen or so guys that have tried the VG thing in one form or another on just this list…do you remember a single one that flew there own plane before and after VG and said, “Crap that was a waste of a couple of hours and $100” and pulled them off?  

   

I haven’t heard of a one…on the Kolb list, the Kitfox list, the Titan list, or the RANS S7 list.  Oh, and the guy who mentioned maybe trying them on a C152…I’ve flown one of them before and after the VG install and I will say it was an improved handling airplane on the slow end.  (Now why the VG STC on a C152 cost the $800 some-odd dollars is beyond me…Lord keep me from GA aircraft ownership…)  

   

I’ll take the opinion of those many guys that HAVE tried them and flown the same airplane with and without them over the opinions of 1 or 2 that have not tossed in their couple of hours of spare time to see.    

   

I have brushed my teeth a couple of times a day for my entire life, but that doesn’t make me a dentist.  Having lots of hours in the same plane but exactly zero hours in that same plane with VG’s doesn’t make that person knowledgeable of VG effectiveness either…  

   

Anyway…That is my opinion of a reasonable test…and opinions are like a certain bodily orifice…everybody has one…so there   

   

Jeremy Casey  

   

   

   

       [quote][b]

ronlee

Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 141

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:28 pm Post subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

Wow, there are some stubborn people on this list.  It seems they can't see the forest for the trees. One plane was with full flaps and the other none. Why didn't both fly the same? Was the angle of attack the same on both? It sounds like one was constantly on the edge of stalling while the other wasn't. One can certainly fly a lot slower with flaps on then retracted! Which had more or any aileron control at or near the stall. One plane was heavy compared to the other. Which needed more power to maintain level flight? I'm sure the one with lots of flaps on! A good pilot can hang on the prop with lots of flaps on and fly VERY slowly. Is it dangerous? Yes, unless one only uses the rudder to stay level and does not use the ailerons, which can flip you on your back quickly.

I have had VGs on two planes. I can say very truthfully  that they each flew better (much better) with them. That is not to say these planes weren't well designed in the first place. Any design in this world can be improved. Be it a Kolb wing or a Stealth bomber. Especially on a fat winged, slow plane VGs can and will do wonders for the handling of your fat winged slow plane. I guarantee if you try them you will love what they do. Sorry about the venting.

_________________
Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:38 pm Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

Jeremy:

  

 From a previous msg today:

  

 I never said I doubted VGs.  I have said I never found a need for them  on 

it.  I have flown Homer's airplanes for a while and like the way he  designed 

them, and the way they perform.



 I think my old gal made a slendid showing flying side by side with a  

similar, but lighter, Kolb.



 Should add to the above:  ........but lighter, Kolb  with VGs.

  

 I know it is difficult for VG'ers,  but over the  years and hours, I have not found a requirement for VGs on Homer's  airplanes.

  

 Thanks for your attention,

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

 [quote]    I have brushed my teeth a couple of times a    day for my entire life, but that doesn’t make me a dentist.  Having lots    of hours in the same plane but exactly zero hours in that same plane with VG’s    doesn’t make that person knowledgeable of VG effectiveness    either…

      

    

Jeremy  Casey

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

a58r(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:44 pm Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

One more mention of Seefram and I epoxy my kybd!



 regards,

Bob N.    FireFly 070 Old Kolb

http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/

do not archive



 



 [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:06 pm Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

Hi Roger:



 "> Wow, there are some stubborn people on this list. "



If you are referring to me.  I probably am stubborn.  Never been known to be 

a sheep and get in line.



See if you can read and understand this Roger:



The flyoff was between me and Richard P.  He has VGs.  I don't.  No attempt 

to have two identical mkIIIs.  I can assure you we both had full aileron 

control.  In fact, my old fat gal will fall out of the sky in a full stall 

and still have roll control.  All Kolb models will do that.  They have done 

that since I started flying the US in 1984.  Rudder does not fit into the 

equation in a Kolb.  If you call 3000 rpm with a 912ULS "more power", OK.



"  A good pilot can hang on the prop with lots of flaps on and fly VERY 

slowly. Is it dangerous? Yes, unless one only uses the rudder to stay level 

and does not use the ailerons, which can flip you on your back quickly."



Roger, this comment above just blows me away.  Do you realize what you would 

have to do to hang my airplane on the prop?  It is a pusher.  The high 

thrust line a minimal speed pushes the nose down, not pull or push it up. 

Anyhow, I was flying with 40 degrees of flaps, no rudder, and a little 

aileron.  Don't need much aileron at one pubic hair on the plus side of the 

stall.  Dangerous, unless only using rudder and no aileron??????   Horse 

crap!!!  Kolbs are not rudder airplanes.  They are aileron airplanes.  They 

do not maintain roll control with rudder.  Maybe for a few seconds, but when 

they start to drop a wing, rudder only aggrevates the situation.



"which can flip you on your back quickly."



The above is a totally rediculous statement.  Are you speaking of getting a 

Kolb on its back by flying slowly with aileron???   I didn't know there was 

any other way to fly it.  Have you ever tried to get a Kolb on its back? 

Throwing an elephant over your shoulder and on to its back would be a much 

easier task.



"I guarantee if you try them you will love what they do. Sorry about the 

venting."



That's ok.  Your vent did not make much sense.



Now.  What does it take to get it through your thick skull that I am most 

happy with my fat old mkIII.  If they make your airplane fly better, I am 

very happy for you.  Based on your comments above, you probably need them.



BTW:  Are you flying a Kolb?



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

It is obvious to me that the only John will ever fly with VG's on Miss P'Fer is for someone to sneak out to Haucks holler one night, put them on, and hope he does not preflight the next day    



That being said, I hope I see John H. at Sun and Fun , or some other fly in and he can take my MK III around the patch and see what he thinks about a MKIII with the VG's.   My plane is pretty close to his weight wise, and with the same engine and prop, but with VG's.   John H knows these planes so well, it would be very informative to me to see what his opinion of them on the MK III are.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

apilot(at)webtv.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:18 pm Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

Group,  Here is what I do not understand.  On Richards and on the Cub

Crafter site, the outboard VGs are moved forward.  On a 737 airliner, they

are moved aft in the aileron area.  Someone please explain.  John is right

about the Kolb not being a rudder airplane.  However, mine is because I

added lifting winglet to the wings.  Now, it flys like a Champ or any other

airplane with dihedral.  The downside is, of course, in the crosswind

landing situations.  But with good aileron technique which can provide

useful adverse yaw to hold runway alignment, the lifting winglets should

not be a problem.  Mine is still an aileron airplane too.  I will add VGs

soon, but I wish that I knew more about the outboard locations.  My interst

is not so much in flying slower (I stall at exactly 40 mph with no tendency

to drop a wing).  What I am looking for is a more progressive stall so that

my gear will quit bending when the tail wheel hits first.  I am machining

fiberglass gear legs now, but they look kind of weak.  We shall see.

      Vic in Sacramento

Original Message:

-----------------

From: John Hauck jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com

Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 17:06:31 -0500

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge




Hi Roger:



 "> Wow, there are some stubborn people on this list. "



If you are referring to me.  I probably am stubborn.  Never been known to

be 

a sheep and get in line.



See if you can read and understand this Roger:



The flyoff was between me and Richard P.  He has VGs.  I don't.  No attempt 

to have two identical mkIIIs.  I can assure you we both had full aileron 

control.  In fact, my old fat gal will fall out of the sky in a full stall 

and still have roll control.  All Kolb models will do that.  They have done 

that since I started flying the US in 1984.  Rudder does not fit into the 

equation in a Kolb.  If you call 3000 rpm with a 912ULS "more power", OK.



"  A good pilot can hang on the prop with lots of flaps on and fly VERY 

slowly. Is it dangerous? Yes, unless one only uses the rudder to stay level 

and does not use the ailerons, which can flip you on your back quickly."



Roger, this comment above just blows me away.  Do you realize what you

would 

have to do to hang my airplane on the prop?  It is a pusher.  The high 

thrust line a minimal speed pushes the nose down, not pull or push it up. 

Anyhow, I was flying with 40 degrees of flaps, no rudder, and a little 

aileron.  Don't need much aileron at one pubic hair on the plus side of the 

stall.  Dangerous, unless only using rudder and no aileron??????   Horse 

crap!!!  Kolbs are not rudder airplanes.  They are aileron airplanes.  They 

do not maintain roll control with rudder.  Maybe for a few seconds, but

when 

they start to drop a wing, rudder only aggrevates the situation.



"which can flip you on your back quickly."



The above is a totally rediculous statement.  Are you speaking of getting a 

Kolb on its back by flying slowly with aileron???   I didn't know there was 

any other way to fly it.  Have you ever tried to get a Kolb on its back? 

Throwing an elephant over your shoulder and on to its back would be a much 

easier task.



"I guarantee if you try them you will love what they do. Sorry about the 

venting."



That's ok.  Your vent did not make much sense.



Now.  What does it take to get it through your thick skull that I am most 

happy with my fat old mkIII.  If they make your airplane fly better, I am 

very happy for you.  Based on your comments above, you probably need them.



BTW:  Are you flying a Kolb?



john h

mkIII

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Dave Bigelow

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 103
Location: Kamuela, Hawaii

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:15 am Post subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

Only really valid way to test the merits of VG's is before and after on the same plane.



Before:  My FSII started getting mushy feeling below 40 mph, and pretty much quit flying at 35.  The stall was mushy and very forgiving without any tendency to fall off on a wing, and aileron control was good throughout.  On landing, there was not very much cushion effect from ground effect - no float.



After:  Control is firm and rock-solid right down to stall break at 30 mph.  Stall is abrupt and rudder is more effective than aileron keeping the wings level.  During landing flare, the plane floats in ground effect more than without the VG's.  If the air is reasonably smooth, I can comfortably fly final at 45 mph indicated -  had to use 50 mph without the VG's



I like the VG's and believe they are a great help in getting into short tight fields.  My recommendation for a new Kolb pilot is to get 25-50 hours without the VG's in your plane, and then install them.  Bet you won't take them off - ever!



The comments about imagination and pitot/static position error don't fly.  The before and after speeds cross check with my GPS.

_________________
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:38 am Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

Fly slower???    How slow do you NEED to fly?   It took me 3 years to  

even pull down the flap handle one notch.

As John needles me, mine is plenty slow right now 

Have to admit though, the flaps sure do cut down on the number of  

bumps I have to withstand before the

wheels leave the ground.

In the rare event that I WASH my wings I prefer the lovely smooth  

topside just the way it is.



Anyway, I would have enjoyed witnessing the shennanigans.  A flour  

bombing contest can be fun too

but maybe would have to be done carefully in a pusher?

BB, low and slow

do not archive

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:39 am Post subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

 	  slyck(at)frontiernet.net wrote: 	
		  Fly slower???    How slow do you NEED to fly?   It took me 3 years to  

even pull down the flap handle one notch.

      	




The ability to fly slow in a Kolb is a HUGE safety factor.   If my engine ever quits, and I am going to be landing in one of those plowed fields, or tall beans, or whatever is in there, having the mains touch down at 30 MPH instead of 40 MPH could make all the difference in the world as to how much damage I do to the plane, and weather I get hurt or not.



Having the ability to fly 10 MPH slower around the pattern, and 10 MPH slower on final again is a HUGE safete factor.   Not getting into that stall spin accident until the plane is 10 MPH slower could make the difference between it ever happening or not.



On my MK III, my indicated stall changed by a full 10 MPH, my touchdown speed decreased by 10 MPH, my minimum comfortable approach speed went from 60 to 50 MPH.  The control in the slow speed range feels much better, no mushy feeling at all.  All this with no downside, I will never take them off.  Exactly where to install VG's are expained very well in the directions.   I put my VG's on with double sided 3M automobile trim tape from advance auto so I could take them off if I did not like them.  The size, angle, and placement of VG's is critical.   I would suggest buying the ones we know will work for 100 bucks, rather than spending days fabricating ones that may or may not work well.



WWW.LANDSHORTER.COM



Its the best 100 bucks you will ever spend on your Kolb.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:40 am Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

In a message dated 10/3/2007 11:40:26 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  orcabonita(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Having    the ability to fly 10 MPH slower around the pattern, and 10 MPH slower on    final again is a HUGE safete factor.   Not getting into that stall    spin accident until the plane is 10 MPH slower could make the difference    between it ever happening or not.



On my MK III, my indicated stall    changed by a full 10 MPH, my touchdown speed decreased by 10 MPH, my minimum    comfortable approach speed went from 60 to 50 MPH.   	


 

 Mike,  At the Homecoming I watched the 1/2 VW Firestar Pilot fly his  pattern and approach at minimum airspeed and nose high attitude. The first time  was scary, I thought he stalled it at 80 feet.

 Have you considered that all other things aside, Potential Kinetic energy  is a function of airspeed and altitude and that while flying your approach at  minimum airspeed you are giving both of them away at the same time?  Why  not keep something in the Bank for that unexpected gust of air or the "Kolb  Quit" Demon out there?

  

  



See what's new="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.

  [quote][b]

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:23 am Post subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

You are so right Steve, I do not make a habbit out of flying slow approaches.  I was merely reporting what I have tested and could do.  I typically fly my approaches power clear back to idle stop, 65-70 MPH diving like a bat out of hell     



But it is very nice to know, if I something unexpected ever happens, or if I just ever screw up my flying that bad, the grim reaper wont come knocking for another 10 MPH.  The slower the plane can fly and land, it gives me a lot more room for error, and the safer I am.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

1planeguy(at)kilocharlie.
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:11 pm Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

I know it is difficult for VG'ers,  but over the years and hours, I have not found a requirement for VGs on Homer's airplanes.  

    

   

    

Thanks for your attention,  

    

   

    

john h  

    

   

<SNIP>  

   

John,  

   

Never said they were “required” on a Kolb or any other plane for that matter.  Their benefits are well known and understood…nothing “difficult” to understand…They are standard performance enhancements to serious Supercubs, Huskys, etc. …was nothing “WRONG” with those planes before…they just perform better with them.  

   

Did Homer design our wonderful planes with a “requirement” for a BRS?  I don’t think so, yet many of Homer’s wonderfully designed airplanes still wear them as standard equipment (including yours)…what’s wrong with another layer of safety equipment?  Especially one that weighs next to nothing, cost next to nothing, and you can enjoy the benefits of it year round?  You never have to send it back in for repack either…  

   

John, you are well respected in the Kolb clan and rightfully so.  You have modified and “improved” the Kolb aircraft you have played with more than probably any other half dozen people.  You developed longer and stronger gear legs, bigger fuel tanks, wing reinforcements, more comfy seats, dual controls in the M3’s,  and heaven only knows what else.  Why you refuse to stick a few little (removeable) plastic wedges on your plane and try them out before deciding they are not “required” or possibly a safety benefit is beyond me…  

   

   

Jeremy “having no difficulty” Casey  

  

       [quote][b]

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

Could those flaps momentarily deploy due to airloads or bumping the lever?



OK next year some one is going to install REAL high lift low speed devices like leading edge Slats right?



Kolb Stork!!!! ????

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

Do Not Archive

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 2:17 pm Post subject: Grand Vortex Generator Challenge

 	  Quote: 	
		   OK next year some one is going to install REAL high lift low speed devices 

 like leading edge Slats right?



 Kolb Stork!!!! ????   [Wink]



 --------

 Ray


	


Ray:



For what?



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

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