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zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:39 pm Post subject: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response

   

Jeff, would this be the wrong time to mention that my company demonstrator 601XL is a plans built with a Corvair engine? Not to mention that total cost is below $15,000 if you don't count my panel of which I went overboard. In addition, you added Jabiru to the aircraft motors, this is not a certified Aircraft motor and is mostly constructed using automotive parts. I have a few friends that have a 601 even cheaper, one gent has a standard panel 601XL ready for flight,( waiting for final inspection) he plans built it in a year and is under $12,000 without paint but everything else.   

   

Safety is construction methods and materials, not brand names! Although most plans built aircraft are not as nice as a kit built plane, I have seen some plans built planes I would be very happy to fly and some kit built that scarred me, also I have seen a few that won Grand Champion at the airshows.  

   

Jeff, you are inflicting your point of view, this comes from the path you have traveled over your life. IT is sound advice for those who have traveled similar routes. Nevertheless, it is not an opinion that is relevant to others who walked the line of life enjoying the creation of projects. Building a plane from plans is not hard; 10 years ago, Zenair only sold kits that were hand created, to say, each and every part was made in the plans builder fashion. THEREFORE, if a builder is willing to take the time to learn the proper methods, there is no reason in this world why he cannot build a plane just as airworthy as yours.  

[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01C805FD.347C1130[/img]  

   

   

MOREOVER, if plans’ building was such a hard and unachievable goal then why would Zenith support such a feature? Why would I have instructed a workshop, in the Zenith facility during the open house?  

    

   

Hosted by Mark of Can-Zac Aviation (Zenith Aircraft's Canadian representative), this workshop covered the skills, materials, tools and commitment required to accomplish the feat of plans-building your own aircraft, whether the STOL CH 701 or Zodiac XL, for less than $10,000 (not counting the engine).  Topics included: Reading and understanding the drawings and manuals, making rib form blocks, cutting the sheet metal rib blanks, deburring and polishing techniques, rib forming, tips, tricks and techniques, and more.    

From the Zenith website, written by the President of Zenith. Being generous with a FWF of $5,000 for a Corvair installation and you have a plane for under $15,000.   

Jeff, I in no way wish to insult you, Everything you have stated in the last few letters is true as it applies to yourself and other like minded people. I believe that you truly cannot see that it is possible for others to accomplish this feat; I also believe that you have certain beliefs in your decisions that would not allow you to accomplish this goal. However, others do not share your thought process, nor should they if it is not appropriate.  

   

In closing, installing a Jabiru engine in my 601XL would have been my first choice, along with the FWF. It really is a simple installation and very nice engine. Nevertheless, I am not a rich man, so when I weighed the options I installed the Corvair and have a safe plane, with a proven track record design.  

   

Yes Jeff, I do consider my 601XL a “real” plane. Also I consider myself an average builder when I began it, plus my first plane I built from plans I considered myself a less then average builder, but very eager to learn as much as I could.  

   

I have said this before to many, if you are building to own and fly a brand new plane with superior performance over the old dilapidated rental fleets out there, buy a QBK kit! IF you are building to save a few dollars but get a flying plane then purchase a kit. IF your building to live an adventure of building a plane from a flat sheet and the flying at the end is just a new bonus then consider a plans built, it is a hell of an adventure.  

   

As for the NSI and dead stick landings, yup I can see that. I have always held the belief that if you take any motor designed at 70hp then hop It up to 105hp your in for a world of headaches. I like the Subaru engines, I have 5 in the shop, but they are a harder conversion and not for the average guy like the Corvair is. In addition, the average Corvair is outputting the hp is was designed for. Nevertheless, each of us must make that decision based on their own investigations, NO-ONE can tell us what to do in our own planes, but it is always good to hear the opinions, BOTH sides of the coin and pick which truths apply to our own personal capabilities and situations.  

   

As for Renting, Lets see my last rental, C-150 walk around. All fiberglass parts cracked. Duct tape holding things on, oil leaks from FWF, drips of fuel from wing tank bleeders. Paint in shameful faded condition. Windshield and side windows glazed, fuel gauges inaccurate, one non-functional, seats ripped and hard to move, carpet stank !   

   

GOD I wish I only found this on one plane but it is all to typical of the rental fleet out there. I show my list of real problems I would NOT accept in my own plane and get the response that it has just had a fresh annual a month or two ago and is all good till next year. IT may fly but I feel far safer behind the plane I built and did not have to use duct tape to keep parts on.  

   

Moreover, don’t forget the bragging rights as you take that pretty woman up for her first flight in a plane you own and built. Well hopefully someone has bragged over this, I have been married for over 20 years and forfeited this right.  

   

Mark Townsend  

Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.  

president(at)can-zacaviation.com  

www.can-zacaviation.com   

   

   

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kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response

_________________
â€œAlways do what you are afraid to do.â€
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)

"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009

"Life is a good deal...it's worth it" Feb 1969
Dorothy McCune

klr12(at)psu.edu
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:12 pm Post subject: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response

Mark,

 Well said! My number are coming in around 14-15K too but hey, I'm not 

going to argue about it.

                                                                                                                       

Kevin R.

                                                                                                                    

601XL/Corvair

psm(at)ATT.NET
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:19 pm Post subject: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response

Hi Mark,



I don't want to get into the scratch builder pricing discussion, but 

I would like to comment on one little part of your message.



At 05:37 PM 10/3/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  IF you are building to save a few dollars but get a flying plane 

then purchase a kit.


	




I think there are nearly as many reasons people build an airplane as 

there are people doing it.  I am not really trying to get a plane for 

a discount and get flying quickly.  Indeed, I am not sure I will 

enjoy flying at all.  I have been an inactive pilot for around 20 

years, and while I always was a good pilot I never really enjoyed it 

a whole bunch.  Flying has always been more of a challenge for me 

than an act of pleasure.  I am hoping the lack of scheduling issues 

flying rentals will make flying my own plane more enjoyable.



I mostly wanted to build a plane because I wanted  something 

"Worthwhile" to build.  After retiring as an engineer and designer of 

computers for mass production, I found life to be a bit boring.  I 

have always enjoyed building stuff and it never really mattered what 

kind of stuff it was.  The new Sport Pilot and LSA rules led me down 

the garden path to building an airplane.



For me the kit approach was the clear choice.  I have sufficient 

funds for any approach to flying light airplanes.  The kit 

manufacturer allows me to build my own plane without doing the 

administrative work of finding all the materials.  They also perform 

many of the "Difficult" tasks that require special equipment or 

skills.  These include things like welding and bending 12 foot long 

pieces of metal.  I am happy to pay Zenith for these services.  For 

me the really important saving offered by the kit is not the saving 

of money but the saving of time and effort doing stuff I don't really 

like doing.

I think it is good for us to have these discussions of builder 

motives and costs.  Alas, the temptation we all seem to have is to 

think our own analysis is the only one that really counts and should 

be applied to all other builders.  I think the truth is each builder 

and each airplane built is unique.  We can all try to help each other 

complete our projects even if we can't agree on the reasons and 

issues each of us must consider.



Paul

XL fuselage

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:38 am Post subject: Re: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response

Here here. Sounds good to me. 



do not archive



 	  zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca wrote: 	
		  ?  

Jeff, would this be the wrong time to mention that my company demonstrator 601XL is a plans built with a Corvair engine? Not to mention that total cost is below $15,000 if you don't count my panel of which I went overboard. In addition, you added Jabiru to the aircraft motors, this is not a certified Aircraft motor and is mostly constructed using automotive parts. I have a few friends that have a 601 even cheaper, one gent has a standard panel 601XL ready for flight,( waiting for final inspection) he plans built it in a year and is under $12,000 without paint but everything else.   

   

Safety is construction methods and materials, not brand names! Although most plans built aircraft are not as nice as a kit built plane, I have seen some plans built planes I would be very happy to fly and some kit built that scarred me, also I have seen a few that won Grand Champion at the airshows.  

   

Jeff, you are inflicting your point of view, this comes from the path you have traveled over your life. IT is sound advice for those who have traveled similar routes. Nevertheless, it is not an opinion that is relevant to others who walked the line of life enjoying the creation of projects. Building a plane from plans is not hard; 10 years ago, Zenair only sold kits that were hand created, to say, each and every part was made in the plans builder fashion. THEREFORE, if a builder is willing to take the time to learn the proper methods, there is no reason in this world why he cannot build a plane just as airworthy as yours.  

[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01C805FD.347C1130[/img]  

   

   

MOREOVER, if plans? building was such a hard and unachievable goal then why would Zenith support such a feature? Why would I have instructed a workshop, in the Zenith facility during the open house?  

?   

   

Hosted by Mark of Can-Zac Aviation (Zenith Aircraft's Canadian representative), this workshop covered the skills, materials, tools and commitment required to accomplish the feat of plans-building your own aircraft, whether the STOL CH 701 or Zodiac XL, for less than $10,000 (not counting the engine).  Topics included: Reading and understanding the drawings and manuals, making rib form blocks, cutting the sheet metal rib blanks, deburring and polishing techniques, rib forming, tips, tricks and techniques, and more.    

From the Zenith website, written by the President of Zenith. Being generous with a FWF of $5,000 for a Corvair installation and you have a plane for under $15,000.   

Jeff, I in no way wish to insult you, Everything you have stated in the last few letters is true as it applies to yourself and other like minded people. I believe that you truly cannot see that it is possible for others to accomplish this feat; I also believe that you have certain beliefs in your decisions that would not allow you to accomplish this goal. However, others do not share your thought process, nor should they if it is not appropriate.  

   

In closing, installing a Jabiru engine in my 601XL would have been my first choice, along with the FWF. It really is a simple installation and very nice engine. Nevertheless, I am not a rich man, so when I weighed the options I installed the Corvair and have a safe plane, with a proven track record design.  

   

Yes Jeff, I do consider my 601XL a ?real? plane. Also I consider myself an average builder when I began it, plus my first plane I built from plans I considered myself a less then average builder, but very eager to learn as much as I could.  

   

I have said this before to many, if you are building to own and fly a brand new plane with superior performance over the old dilapidated rental fleets out there, buy a QBK kit! IF you are building to save a few dollars but get a flying plane then purchase a kit. IF your building to live an adventure of building a plane from a flat sheet and the flying at the end is just a new bonus then consider a plans built, it is a hell of an adventure.  

   

As for the NSI and dead stick landings, yup I can see that. I have always held the belief that if you take any motor designed at 70hp then hop It up to 105hp your in for a world of headaches. I like the Subaru engines, I have 5 in the shop, but they are a harder conversion and not for the average guy like the Corvair is. In addition, the average Corvair is outputting the hp is was designed for. Nevertheless, each of us must make that decision based on their own investigations, NO-ONE can tell us what to do in our own planes, but it is always good to hear the opinions, BOTH sides of the coin and pick which truths apply to our own personal capabilities and situations.  

   

As for Renting, Lets see my last rental, C-150 walk around. All fiberglass parts cracked. Duct tape holding things on, oil leaks from FWF, drips of fuel from wing tank bleeders. Paint in shameful faded condition. Windshield and side windows glazed, fuel gauges inaccurate, one non-functional, seats ripped and hard to move, carpet stank !   

   

GOD I wish I only found this on one plane but it is all to typical of the rental fleet out there. I show my list of real problems I would NOT accept in my own plane and get the response that it has just had a fresh annual a month or two ago and is all good till next year. IT may fly but I feel far safer behind the plane I built and did not have to use duct tape to keep parts on.  

   

Moreover, don?t forget the bragging rights as you take that pretty woman up for her first flight in a plane you own and built. Well hopefully someone has bragged over this, I have been married for over 20 years and forfeited this right.  

?  

Mark Townsend  

Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.  

president(at)can-zacaviation.com  

www.can-zacaviation.com   

   

   

--

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response

Inflicting my view? Sorry, I didn't realize my opinion conflicted with yours.

I'll run right out and change it. By the way which side of politics do you

stand on?



Have a nice day,



Jeff 



 	  zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca wrote: 	
		  ?  

Jeff, would this be the wrong time to mention that my company demonstrator 601XL is a plans built with a Corvair engine? Not to mention that total cost is below $15,000 if you don't count my panel of which I went overboard. In addition, you added Jabiru to the aircraft motors, this is not a certified Aircraft motor and is mostly constructed using automotive parts. I have a few friends that have a 601 even cheaper, one gent has a standard panel 601XL ready for flight,( waiting for final inspection) he plans built it in a year and is under $12,000 without paint but everything else.   

   

Safety is construction methods and materials, not brand names! Although most plans built aircraft are not as nice as a kit built plane, I have seen some plans built planes I would be very happy to fly and some kit built that scarred me, also I have seen a few that won Grand Champion at the airshows.  

   

Jeff, you are inflicting your point of view, this comes from the path you have traveled over your life. IT is sound advice for those who have traveled similar routes. Nevertheless, it is not an opinion that is relevant to others who walked the line of life enjoying the creation of projects. Building a plane from plans is not hard; 10 years ago, Zenair only sold kits that were hand created, to say, each and every part was made in the plans builder fashion. THEREFORE, if a builder is willing to take the time to learn the proper methods, there is no reason in this world why he cannot build a plane just as airworthy as yours.  

[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01C805FD.347C1130[/img]  

   

   

MOREOVER, if plans? building was such a hard and unachievable goal then why would Zenith support such a feature? Why would I have instructed a workshop, in the Zenith facility during the open house?  

?   

   

Hosted by Mark of Can-Zac Aviation (Zenith Aircraft's Canadian representative), this workshop covered the skills, materials, tools and commitment required to accomplish the feat of plans-building your own aircraft, whether the STOL CH 701 or Zodiac XL, for less than $10,000 (not counting the engine).  Topics included: Reading and understanding the drawings and manuals, making rib form blocks, cutting the sheet metal rib blanks, deburring and polishing techniques, rib forming, tips, tricks and techniques, and more.    

From the Zenith website, written by the President of Zenith. Being generous with a FWF of $5,000 for a Corvair installation and you have a plane for under $15,000.   

Jeff, I in no way wish to insult you, Everything you have stated in the last few letters is true as it applies to yourself and other like minded people. I believe that you truly cannot see that it is possible for others to accomplish this feat; I also believe that you have certain beliefs in your decisions that would not allow you to accomplish this goal. However, others do not share your thought process, nor should they if it is not appropriate.  

   

In closing, installing a Jabiru engine in my 601XL would have been my first choice, along with the FWF. It really is a simple installation and very nice engine. Nevertheless, I am not a rich man, so when I weighed the options I installed the Corvair and have a safe plane, with a proven track record design.  

   

Yes Jeff, I do consider my 601XL a ?real? plane. Also I consider myself an average builder when I began it, plus my first plane I built from plans I considered myself a less then average builder, but very eager to learn as much as I could.  

   

I have said this before to many, if you are building to own and fly a brand new plane with superior performance over the old dilapidated rental fleets out there, buy a QBK kit! IF you are building to save a few dollars but get a flying plane then purchase a kit. IF your building to live an adventure of building a plane from a flat sheet and the flying at the end is just a new bonus then consider a plans built, it is a hell of an adventure.  

   

As for the NSI and dead stick landings, yup I can see that. I have always held the belief that if you take any motor designed at 70hp then hop It up to 105hp your in for a world of headaches. I like the Subaru engines, I have 5 in the shop, but they are a harder conversion and not for the average guy like the Corvair is. In addition, the average Corvair is outputting the hp is was designed for. Nevertheless, each of us must make that decision based on their own investigations, NO-ONE can tell us what to do in our own planes, but it is always good to hear the opinions, BOTH sides of the coin and pick which truths apply to our own personal capabilities and situations.  

   

As for Renting, Lets see my last rental, C-150 walk around. All fiberglass parts cracked. Duct tape holding things on, oil leaks from FWF, drips of fuel from wing tank bleeders. Paint in shameful faded condition. Windshield and side windows glazed, fuel gauges inaccurate, one non-functional, seats ripped and hard to move, carpet stank !   

   

GOD I wish I only found this on one plane but it is all to typical of the rental fleet out there. I show my list of real problems I would NOT accept in my own plane and get the response that it has just had a fresh annual a month or two ago and is all good till next year. IT may fly but I feel far safer behind the plane I built and did not have to use duct tape to keep parts on.  

   

Moreover, don?t forget the bragging rights as you take that pretty woman up for her first flight in a plane you own and built. Well hopefully someone has bragged over this, I have been married for over 20 years and forfeited this right.  

?  

Mark Townsend  

Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.  

president(at)can-zacaviation.com  

www.can-zacaviation.com   

   

   

--

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response

 LOL



Mark, just let him spend too much. Apparently it's good for the economy, but not necessarily good for the individual. LOL



Jeff, you're right, a $34,999 XL is not safe regardless of who builds it, but a $35,001 plane is safe, even if built by a kit builder with no skills developed during the process. Price accordingly, just like Hammacher Schlemmer. Now that I think of it, that must be where that $199 Corvair gasket set came from. At least it's monogrammed and comes with a certificate of authenticity with a handsome display case, suitable for display on any mantle or just to say 'look who's the boss' in the office. 



Available in Black, Ivory, Desert Sun, and Blush.



LOL

 	  n85ae wrote: 	
		  Inflicting my view? Sorry, I didn't realize my opinion conflicted with yours.

I'll run right out and change it. By the way which side of politics do you

stand on?



Have a nice day,



Jeff 



 	  zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca wrote: 	
		  ?  

Jeff, would this be the wrong time to mention that my company demonstrator 601XL is a plans built with a Corvair engine? Not to mention that total cost is below $15,000 if you don't count my panel of which I went overboard. In addition, you added Jabiru to the aircraft motors, this is not a certified Aircraft motor and is mostly constructed using automotive parts. I have a few friends that have a 601 even cheaper, one gent has a standard panel 601XL ready for flight,( waiting for final inspection) he plans built it in a year and is under $12,000 without paint but everything else.   

   

Safety is construction methods and materials, not brand names! Although most plans built aircraft are not as nice as a kit built plane, I have seen some plans built planes I would be very happy to fly and some kit built that scarred me, also I have seen a few that won Grand Champion at the airshows.  

   

Jeff, you are inflicting your point of view, this comes from the path you have traveled over your life. IT is sound advice for those who have traveled similar routes. Nevertheless, it is not an opinion that is relevant to others who walked the line of life enjoying the creation of projects. Building a plane from plans is not hard; 10 years ago, Zenair only sold kits that were hand created, to say, each and every part was made in the plans builder fashion. THEREFORE, if a builder is willing to take the time to learn the proper methods, there is no reason in this world why he cannot build a plane just as airworthy as yours.  

[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01C805FD.347C1130[/img]  

   

   

MOREOVER, if plans? building was such a hard and unachievable goal then why would Zenith support such a feature? Why would I have instructed a workshop, in the Zenith facility during the open house?  

?   

   

Hosted by Mark of Can-Zac Aviation (Zenith Aircraft's Canadian representative), this workshop covered the skills, materials, tools and commitment required to accomplish the feat of plans-building your own aircraft, whether the STOL CH 701 or Zodiac XL, for less than $10,000 (not counting the engine).  Topics included: Reading and understanding the drawings and manuals, making rib form blocks, cutting the sheet metal rib blanks, deburring and polishing techniques, rib forming, tips, tricks and techniques, and more.    

From the Zenith website, written by the President of Zenith. Being generous with a FWF of $5,000 for a Corvair installation and you have a plane for under $15,000.   

Jeff, I in no way wish to insult you, Everything you have stated in the last few letters is true as it applies to yourself and other like minded people. I believe that you truly cannot see that it is possible for others to accomplish this feat; I also believe that you have certain beliefs in your decisions that would not allow you to accomplish this goal. However, others do not share your thought process, nor should they if it is not appropriate.  

   

In closing, installing a Jabiru engine in my 601XL would have been my first choice, along with the FWF. It really is a simple installation and very nice engine. Nevertheless, I am not a rich man, so when I weighed the options I installed the Corvair and have a safe plane, with a proven track record design.  

   

Yes Jeff, I do consider my 601XL a ?real? plane. Also I consider myself an average builder when I began it, plus my first plane I built from plans I considered myself a less then average builder, but very eager to learn as much as I could.  

   

I have said this before to many, if you are building to own and fly a brand new plane with superior performance over the old dilapidated rental fleets out there, buy a QBK kit! IF you are building to save a few dollars but get a flying plane then purchase a kit. IF your building to live an adventure of building a plane from a flat sheet and the flying at the end is just a new bonus then consider a plans built, it is a hell of an adventure.  

   

As for the NSI and dead stick landings, yup I can see that. I have always held the belief that if you take any motor designed at 70hp then hop It up to 105hp your in for a world of headaches. I like the Subaru engines, I have 5 in the shop, but they are a harder conversion and not for the average guy like the Corvair is. In addition, the average Corvair is outputting the hp is was designed for. Nevertheless, each of us must make that decision based on their own investigations, NO-ONE can tell us what to do in our own planes, but it is always good to hear the opinions, BOTH sides of the coin and pick which truths apply to our own personal capabilities and situations.  

   

As for Renting, Lets see my last rental, C-150 walk around. All fiberglass parts cracked. Duct tape holding things on, oil leaks from FWF, drips of fuel from wing tank bleeders. Paint in shameful faded condition. Windshield and side windows glazed, fuel gauges inaccurate, one non-functional, seats ripped and hard to move, carpet stank !   

   

GOD I wish I only found this on one plane but it is all to typical of the rental fleet out there. I show my list of real problems I would NOT accept in my own plane and get the response that it has just had a fresh annual a month or two ago and is all good till next year. IT may fly but I feel far safer behind the plane I built and did not have to use duct tape to keep parts on.  

   

Moreover, don?t forget the bragging rights as you take that pretty woman up for her first flight in a plane you own and built. Well hopefully someone has bragged over this, I have been married for over 20 years and forfeited this right.  

?  

Mark Townsend  

Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.  

president(at)can-zacaviation.com  

www.can-zacaviation.com   

   

   

--

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:38 am Post subject: Re: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response

Know-it-all airplane builder opinions frequently change when they become airplane fliers (some times glider fliers). That is my observation. 



Let me just tell you point blank, I do not think much of auto conversions

regardless of who did the work. So everything you read that I post, you 

can keep in mind my opinion.



Jeff.

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:34 am Post subject: Re: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response

Interesting. You know there are a lot of flyers out there that think much the same about that Rotax you have in your Kitfox. There are even more people that think the same about airplanes that aren't built in a factory, again like your Kitfox and the 801 you are building.



I've had two inflight engine failures in the 25+ years I've been flying. Guess what? In the first I was sitting behind a Lycoming engine. In the second I was sitting in front of a Lycoming engine. In both cases they were installed at the factory that built the aircraft. 

 	  n85ae wrote: 	
		  Know-it-all airplane builder opinions frequently change when they become airplane fliers (some times glider fliers). That is my observation. 



Let me just tell you point blank, I do not think much of auto conversions

regardless of who did the work. So everything you read that I post, you 

can keep in mind my opinion.



Jeff.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:44 am Post subject: Re: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response

Gig -



I have a factory new injected Continental IO240B in it NOT a Rotax. 



Regards,

Jeff.

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:14 am Post subject: Re: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response

Sorry Jeff, I went by the listing here... http://www.homebuilt.org/directory/skystar.html



But it says a lot that the correction of the type of engine you have is your only reply to my post.



 	  n85ae wrote: 	
		  Gig -



I have a factory new injected Continental IO240B in it NOT a Rotax. 



Regards,

Jeff. 	


DO NOT ARCHIVE

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:44 am Post subject: Re: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response

Hey Gig -



No, I'm up for it. This is just an email list, I'm certainly not afraid to put

messages on it. It certainly can't compete with my kids for antagonizing

me.  I enjoy the debate, it breaks up my day. 



What was the point you wanted me to address?



Regards,

Jeff

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:08 am Post subject: Re: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response

Just the facts that A. The vast majority of people think that flying in any non-certified plane is as dangerous as you seem to think that auto conversions are. B. That engines failures happen with "Airplane" engines as well.



DO NOT ARCHIVE



 	  n85ae wrote: 	
		  Hey Gig -



No, I'm up for it. This is just an email list, I'm certainly not afraid to put

messages on it. It certainly can't compete with my kids for antagonizing

me.  I enjoy the debate, it breaks up my day. 



What was the point you wanted me to address?



Regards,

Jeff

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:49 am Post subject: Re: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response

Gig -



I agree with that.



Mechanical devices of all types, can and do fail. The likelihood is increased

by using them for purposes other than that which they were designed.



Jeff

klr12(at)psu.edu
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:32 pm Post subject: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response

I found this enlightening.

      

 

 Sport Aviation, October 2007

 page 35, 1st column- last paragraph

 

 "Corvairs arrived at Oshkosh in force, spawned........................................ 

 The Zenair display featured Dick Schmidt's new 601 HD, which he built from plans for less than $5000 (firewall aft)................"

 

                                                                                                                     Kevin R.

                                                                                                                       XL/C

    [quote][b]

leo(at)zuehlfield.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:53 pm Post subject: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response

Gang, Lets go back to 1957, Travis AFB, CA.  On one of my first flights 

as a USAF navigator on C124s, the Flight Engineer (gray haired old 

sergeant)  turned to me and asked, "Lieutenant, do you know why they put 

four engines on this airplane?"  I answered no and he said, "Because one 

of them always quits." - More truth than fiction.  Four engines have 

four times the chance of one of them quiting.



Leo Gates

Do not archive.



n85ae wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Gig -



 I agree with that.



 Mechanical devices of all types, can and do fail. The likelihood is increased

 by using them for purposes other than that which they were designed.



 Jeff

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response

Here's the problem Jeff. I don't think you will find a greater failure rate on properly built and installed auto conversions than you find in Exp-HB aircraft as a whole.



If you look at the accident records I think you will find, in both, that accidents are caused by failures that are not related to the equipments certification status. I've seen plenty of shiny new Lyco's installed in such a way that I wouldn't fly in them if you held a gun to my head.



I think your discounting of auto-conversions just because they weren't originally designed as aircraft engines is kind of silly considering you are building an aircraft yourself. That is unless you are an aeronautical engineer.  



Nobody is saying you need to choose one but to attack those that choose to use, say a Corvair, as being in some way less safe than you is going to piss a lot of people off and cause them to discount anything you have to say on any topic.



DO NOT ARCHIVE



 	  n85ae wrote: 	
		  Gig -



I agree with that.



Mechanical devices of all types, can and do fail. The likelihood is increased

by using them for purposes other than that which they were designed.



Jeff

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response

Gig -



I don't think I made any personal attacks, I may have stated my 

opinions in a way that gets under people's skin, but that's about it.

Heck - I think probably everybody on this list would all be friends 

if we met at the airport offline. Honestly. 



You have a nice website, and it looks like a nice plane. I think you ought

to put a higher quality engine on it. It looks like based on the facilities

you are building in that you can afford to do so. 



However, that being said - You are certainly entitled to put whatever 

you want on it.



Remember this is just an internet list, and in the greater reality of life

is pretty unimportant. 



Have a nice weekend.



Regards,

Jeff

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:43 pm Post subject: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response

Good discussion guys,

Popular auto conversions for aircraft require more builder 

decision-making on ignition, carburetor's and cooling. Statistically, 

numbers prove that the conversions have a broader range of solutions to 

deal with like selecting carbs, coils and radiators. Too many “brilliant 

type-As” are reluctant to employ successful aircraft and engine 

solutions of previous builders. Most people fear doing a conversion, but 

don’t blame the engine, be it a Subaru, Corvair, Ford or Chevy. These 

are great engines! It is the builder that repeatedly makes the mistakes 

and the most onerous statistics would point to the conversion engines 

when they should point to the less than responsible builder.

I'd like to think of it as a kind of a Darwinist plan for improving 

aircraft builder intellect and capability.

Think, build and then fly safe,

Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

Gig Giacona wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Nobody is saying you need to choose one but to attack those that choose to use, say a Corvair, as being in some way less safe than you is going to piss a lot of people off and cause them to discount anything you have to say on any topic.

> Gig -

>

> I agree with that.

>

> Mechanical devices of all types, can and do fail. The likelihood is increased

> by using them for purposes other than that which they were designed.

>

> Jeff

>

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:13 am Post subject: Re: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response

Personally, about the only thing I can see as a problem with an auto-conversion is if you're rally trying to push it past it's limits to get power out of it. For a comparison though, the engine in my Hyundai Elantra sees 3100 rpm in 5th gear at 65mph. If that engine were light enough to use as an aircraft engine, I'd redline it at 3100. 7 years of highway driveway with no problems indicates that's an ok speed for that engine. In comparison, years ago I had a Datsun B-210 that was a 4 speed and turned about 4000 rpm at 60mph, even so, it ran for years no problem. I know for a fact that Chevy 350s when used it boating applications (and they need to be dependable) turn 4 and change, so apparently these engines are capable of putting out that kind of power for extended periods of time. But just off the top of my head, you run an auto conversion at rpms it would have seen on the street at 60mph or less and that puppy will last quite awhile. 100,000 miles at 55mph is about 1,800 hours. I would guess a Corvair in 5th gear doing 55mph would turn the engine about 2500rpm, under an Chevy engineered load. Just as some basic starting numbers, that sounds totally realistic to me with proper cooling and routine maintenance.

Here's and interesting side note too, the Corvair is a more naturally balance engine compared to a 4 cylinder O-200. Not only that, but with those two extra cylinders, for the same power output, each of those cylinders has less stress on it. Just an interesting side note, having used a 140 Evinrude on my boat for years, I have a better appreciation for overstressed designs. The 140 is the same block, bore and stroke as the 90hp, but the 

heads are different to up the compression. The 140 is the most problematic of the bunch. Go back to a 90hp or step up to the 6-cylinder 150hp and there's a lot less problems. People swear by the old 150s. Low stress engine.

 	  larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote: 	
		  Good discussion guys,

Popular auto conversions for aircraft require more builder 

decision-making on ignition, carburetor's and cooling. Statistically, 

numbers prove that the conversions have a broader range of solutions to 

deal with like selecting carbs, coils and radiators. Too many ?brilliant 

type-As? are reluctant to employ successful aircraft and engine 

solutions of previous builders. Most people fear doing a conversion, but 

don?t blame the engine, be it a Subaru, Corvair, Ford or Chevy. These 

are great engines! It is the builder that repeatedly makes the mistakes 

and the most onerous statistics would point to the conversion engines 

when they should point to the less than responsible builder.

I'd like to think of it as a kind of a Darwinist plan for improving 

aircraft builder intellect and capability.

Think, build and then fly safe,

Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

Gig Giacona wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Nobody is saying you need to choose one but to attack those that choose to use, say a Corvair, as being in some way less safe than you is going to piss a lot of people off and cause them to discount anything you have to say on any topic.

> Gig -

>

> I agree with that.

>

> Mechanical devices of all types, can and do fail. The likelihood is increased

> by using them for purposes other than that which they were designed.

>

> Jeff

>

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