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Sorry Guys it is another long winded response
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ashontz



Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:45 am    Post subject: Re: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response Reply with quote

Even if you went with a Lyc, you can still get one a lot cheaper. Anyone here think of airboat engines? I noticed years ago they use aircraft engines, and they're generally less expensive.

If I needed a new Lycoming O-360 for a CH801
http://www.westernskyways.com/gator_engines.asp
$12,000, sweet!

Bet you could get gator engines to scrounge up and rebuild a O-200 for you for $10,000 or less. They apparently have access to a bunch of cheap Lycomings. And if they can't there's probably a thousand airboat junkyards from Texas to Georgia and down to Everglades City that could find one for you, rebuild it and sell it to you for that price. That's generally a lower end market, simply because some dude from Pigsknuckles, FL isn't going to want to drop $30,000 on an airboat engine. Better be competitive with an outboard engine less the market forces decide they'd rather spend their money on a Evinrude shallow water jetboat engine.

O-235, $3,600
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&viewitem=&item=280157388698


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purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:55 am    Post subject: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response Reply with quote

Go to infi(at)ramengines.com see what is done to those engines---the only part
that is Subaru is the block, and it is not stock in any way .I think it
will out perform and out last any thing out there, so I can't see how you
can paint all these auto converts with a broad brush . Mabye if you're
talking about going to a junk yard and draging aE 81 out putting some kind
of a re drive on it and calling it a auto converson That's what you're
talking about.! You are giving auto converts a bad rap,and turn you are not
giving the people that are asking for real info a fair shake . Read the
Spec's and then give us your Long winded responce.
Anxious N101HD 601XL RAMOriginal Message -----
From: "ashontz" <ashontz(at)nbme.org>
To: <zenith-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response
Quote:


Personally, about the only thing I can see as a problem with an
auto-conversion is if you're rally trying to push it past it's limits to
get power out of it. For a comparison though, the engine in my Hyundai
Elantra sees 3100 rpm in 5th gear at 65mph. If that engine were light
enough to use as an aircraft engine, I'd redline it at 3100. 7 years of
highway driveway with no problems indicates that's an ok speed for that
engine. In comparison, years ago I had a Datsun B-210 that was a 4 speed
and turned about 4000 rpm at 60mph, even so, it ran for years no problem.
I know for a fact that Chevy 350s when used it boating applications (and
they need to be dependable) turn 4 and change, so apparently these engines
are capable of putting out that kind of power for extended periods of
time. But just off the top of my head, you run an auto conversion at rpms
it would have seen on the street at 60mph or less and that puppy will last
quite awhile. 100,000 miles at 55mph is about 1,800 h!
ours. I would guess a Corvair in 5th gear doing 55mph would turn the
engine about 2500rpm, under an Chevy engineered load. Just as some basic
starting numbers, that sounds totally realistic to me with proper cooling
and routine maintenance.

Here's and interesting side note too, the Corvair is a more naturally
balance engine compared to a 4 cylinder O-200. Not only that, but with
those two extra cylinders, for the same power output, each of those
cylinders has less stress on it. Just an interesting side note, having
used a 140 Evinrude for years, I have a better appreciation for
overstressed designs. The 140 is the same block, bore and stroke as the
90hp, but the
heads are different to up the compression. The 140 is the most problematic
of the bunch. Go back to a 90hp is step up to the 6-cylinder 150hp and
there's a lot less problems. People swear by the old 150s. Low stress
engine.
larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote:
> Good discussion guys,
> Popular auto conversions for aircraft require more builder
> decision-making on ignition, carburetor's and cooling. Statistically,
> numbers prove that the conversions have a broader range of solutions to
> deal with like selecting carbs, coils and radiators. Too many ?brilliant
> type-As? are reluctant to employ successful aircraft and engine
> solutions of previous builders. Most people fear doing a conversion, but
> don?t blame the engine, be it a Subaru, Corvair, Ford or Chevy. These
> are great engines! It is the builder that repeatedly makes the mistakes
> and the most onerous statistics would point to the conversion engines
> when they should point to the less than responsible builder.
> I'd like to think of it as a kind of a Darwinist plan for improving
> aircraft builder intellect and capability.
>
> Think, build and then fly safe,
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
> Gig Giacona wrote:
>
> > Nobody is saying you need to choose one but to attack those that
> > choose to use, say a Corvair, as being in some way less safe than you
> > is going to piss a lot of people off and cause them to discount
> > anything you have to say on any topic.
> >
> >
> > > Gig -
> > >
> > > I agree with that.
> > >
> > > Mechanical devices of all types, can and do fail. The likelihood is
> > > increased
> > > by using them for purposes other than that which they were designed.
> > >
> > > Jeff
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz


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ashontz



Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:00 am    Post subject: Re: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response Reply with quote

http://www.southernairboat.com/classifieds/showproduct.php/product/1529/cat/2

$4,400, take the engine, resell the hull. Appears to be an O-235 on there.

$1,000 POS. Who cares. Looks like an O-200.

http://www.southernairboat.com/classifieds/showproduct.php/product/1568/cat/2

Apparently these good old boys have access to Lyc parts fairly cheap. From the looks of their backyards they don't look like they're rolling in cash.


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ashontz



Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:01 am    Post subject: Re: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response Reply with quote

'Nother source for cheap engines.

http://terf.com/AircraftEngines.html


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purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:34 pm    Post subject: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response Reply with quote

---

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:38 pm    Post subject: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response Reply with quote

Oh by the way I had 2- 350 chevs in a boat that turned 6800 rpm . for 30
to 40 mins. at atime and ran 5200 to5600 for hrs. no problems at all. It
all goes back to who built the eng, and it wasn't someone who thought they
were a eng. builder ,but a real eng. builder same with the subaru or any
other eng. that you can think of... Anxious N101HD 601XL/RAM
---


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ashontz



Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response Reply with quote

Damn, didn't realize they turned that fast. Yeah, it's always the unlikely grease-monkey that's actualy better at whatever someone else's alleged expertise is. Guess it's the peter principle thng at work for the other guy. LOL

purplemoon99(at)bellsouth wrote:
Oh by the way I had 2- 350 chevs in a boat that turned 6800 rpm . for 30
to 40 mins. at atime and ran 5200 to5600 for hrs. no problems at all. It
all goes back to who built the eng, and it wasn't someone who thought they
were a eng. builder ,but a real eng. builder same with the subaru or any
other eng. that you can think of... Anxious N101HD 601XL/RAM
---


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:58 pm    Post subject: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response Reply with quote

I don't know if they would like being called" grease monkeys ", the one's
I know put there engs. together in" Clean Rooms" where they don't even get
dust In them. Grease monkey's are the ones that build that E81 found in a
junk yard, build it on the kitchen table and can't figure why it doesn't do
such a hot job. Hence "auto conv. are no good" The distance between
"grease monkey"and "engine builder" is about 10 to 25 years . Joe N101
HD 601 XL/ RAM
---


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steveadams



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 191

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:38 am    Post subject: Re: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response Reply with quote

I guess I will jump into the fray. First I just want to say that a lot of my opinion is based on researching possible alternatives for a larger 180-200hp engine, and may not be applicable to the smaller 80-100hp engines. I see a lot of "I think", "should", "could", and "I believe" from people talking about auto conversions. People touting their conversions are long on promises and potential, and short on data. Certified engines do fail, however there are pretty good stats on failure rates, causes of failure, maintenance issues to look out for, and how long they will reliably last. Auto conversions are a crap shoot. If you go for one of the bigger engine builders with some measure of previous installations and success, savings, if any, over a certified engine are pretty small. Engineer your own conversion and you best stay close to the airport because it is likely that no matter how smart you are or mechanically gifted, it is very unusual that someone will get everything right the first time. I respect those of you going this this route for your desire to find a more modern and efficient engine than the traditional certified engines available. However, if you think going this route carries less risk than going with the tried and true, you are deluding yourself. If you think I am wrong, show me some data and I'll jump on the auto conversion bandwagon. As far as buying an old airboat lyco and sticking it in your plane; there is a reason they are cheap. They are built up of out of spec parts, which may be "good enough" for a boat, but are not what I want to hang my life and my families life on. There is a difference between good value and being cheap.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:48 am    Post subject: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response Reply with quote

steveadams <dr_steve_adams(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote:
Certified engines do fail, however there are pretty good stats on failure rates, causes of failure, maintenance issues to look out for, and how long they will reliably last. Auto conversions are a crap shoot.

Can you show me where I can find stats on failure rates for Jabiru 3300, Rotax, Continental O-200?
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida.
[quote][b]


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steveadams



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 191

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:58 am    Post subject: Re: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response Reply with quote

bill_dom(at)yahoo.com wrote:


Can you show me where I can find stats on failure rates for Jabiru 3300, Rotax, Continental O-200?
quote]

As I said at the beginning of my message, all my research has been on larger engines and I know nothing about Jabiru and Rotax engines. For the continental 0-200, look in the NTSB database at airframes flying behind the engine for the last 50 years and see how often mech failure results in an accident. Then just for fun, look at all of the zodiac accidents in the past 10 years, and see what percentage of the engine failures were flying an auto conversion.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 11:06 am    Post subject: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response Reply with quote

Thanks,

I did what you described but only for engines flying in Zodiac 601 airframes. The majority of Zodiacs accidents where engine failure was the cause happened with Rotax engines. However, this is not valid statistic since Rotax could be the most common engine used in Zodiacs. There where a couple of Lycoming, a couple of Subarus but not Corvairs or Jabirus. But then again, without knowing how many of them have been flying, this is inconclusive.

If I get some time one of these days I'll get this as failures as percentage of engine flying in Zodiacs.

William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida.

steveadams <dr_steve_adams(at)yahoo.com> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "steveadams"
bill_dom(at)yahoo.com wrote:
Quote:



Can you show me [quote][b]


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graeme(at)coletoolcentre.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:57 pm    Post subject: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response Reply with quote

I would be surprised that the majority of engine failures would be behind Rotax engines.
Do people use 582 two strokes in 601 I would assume so as they have about the same performance as the old 2200 Jabiru.
The two strokes are definatly not as reliable as the 912 four stroke .
If they are 912 failures are fuel starvation problems classed as an engine failure???

Graeme Cairns
[quote] ---


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larry(at)macsmachine.com
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:58 pm    Post subject: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response Reply with quote

Graeme,
It’s not that Rotax 912 series had exceptional difficulties. They went
through teething problems in the beginning keeping re-drives running.
Recently, they’ve had a hard time keeping their engines cool and
mandated oil and special coolant requirements for some if not all users.
The 912 is or was the most popular engine and had a tremendous early
lead in market share. They’re just coming to terms with the Jabaru and
the competition. If it appeared that they have a disproportionate number
of engine problems or failures, that’s only because there are so many of
them out there.
It's not likely that enough 582 are powering 601s to count in engine
failure rates and fuel starvation is most likely a problem with aircraft
plumbing, pumps or trying to suck fuel uphill. These are people
problems, not engine problems.

Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com <http://www.macsmachine.com/>

Do not archive

Graeme wrote:
Quote:
I would be surprised that the majority of engine failures would be
behind Rotax engines.
Do people use 582 two strokes in 601 I would assume so as they have
about the same performance as the old 2200 Jabiru.
The two strokes are definatly not as reliable as the 912 four stroke .
If they are 912 failures are fuel starvation problems classed as an
engine failure???
Graeme Cairns


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:42 am    Post subject: Sorry Guys it is another long winded response Reply with quote

The 582 is too weak for a 601. The failures in questions are from the 912 family and some could have been caused by fuel starvation. It seems like the Rotax was the most common engine used in earlier Zodiacs so this could be the reason why there are more failures of Rotax in the NTSB accident database.

William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami, Florida

Graeme <graeme(at)coletoolcentre.com.au> wrote:[quote] I would be surprised that the majority of engine failures would be behind Rotax engines.
Do people use 582 two strokes in 601 I would assume so as they have about the same performance as the old 2200 Jabiru.
The two strokes are definatly not as reliable as the 912 four stroke .
If they are 912 failures are fuel starvation problems classed as an engine failure???

Graeme Cairns
[quote] ---


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