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LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
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 Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:33 am Post subject: Call for data (used to be RE: Dan's H6Turbo numbers) |
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In my opinion there are way to many combinations on how each of us fly
and operate the engines. The are so many variables on the Lycomings it
is difficult to build a chart with every variation out there. Heck I
would even argue that the same engine moved from one plane to the next
will perform differently, that we can not define a definitive answer.
What we can provide however is generalities to performance numbers, will
any one way we present the numbers meet everyone's perceived needs? No,
but what it will do is give something to compare to.
With that being said Tim did us a great service in creating his website
and it has a page specifically for performance numbers, and while
everyone talks about how important these comparisons are, only two
people out of over 100 have chosen to provide that information. The
information posted on the Eggenfellner site was taken from those two
reports, and is preliminary at best. We have made several changes to the
engine since that data was posted, so it is already out of date and will
need to be changed, but conversely there is a much larger pool of
Lycomings to pull the stat's from, but no one is taking the time to fill
out the data and have Tim post it.
I for one will be traveling up to Tim's so we can fly the planes in like
conditions and we will post the data, but that still will only be one
Lycoming compared to one Subaru, and that is not statistically
significant, but if we all work together as a team and collect the
required data we can only make it better for all of us that follow.
There are enough RV10's flying that we should have a good baseline for
comparison, and as soon as Jan ships this engine batch there will be at
least 10 more Subaru's quickly flying that we can start comparing to, I
also know of at least two rotary's and two V-8's in late construction so
we will have those numbers too.
But until WE all take the time to gather the data we are all just making
conjecture. Lets collect the data and make it visible to all so they can
use it for comparison.
Dan
N289DT RV10E Flying
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:10 pm Post subject: Call for data (used to be RE: Dan's H6Turbo numbers) |
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Hear Hear! You're right...we need more data! My own numbers are
just numbers I usually gather from trips, and I fly LOP almost
all the trips. I pay a price and today I saw that at that particular
temp/pressure/altitude I paid a price of about 10KTs for a huge
savings in fuel. My numbers will ALWAYS be slow in comparison to
most people's, because that's the way I cruise. I'd rather have
well over 1000nm range at 162-4 kts than 600-800 at 170-4 kts, so
I do what I do. I very rarely have the throttle all the way
forward, other than during climb. In fact, in cruise, one of
the first things do is pull back the throttle until I knock
about .2" of MAP off the WOT setting. I've heard in the past
especially with carb engines that the throttle plate can have
an effect on the mixture distribution, and it can be smoother
if you pull it back a little. I found this true on my old
plane, and it may be just psychological but it seems true
on this one. So I pull it back just a tad from WOT, and then
set the prop and mixture.
Anyway, as long as someone does 2 things, I'm happy to post numbers.
1 is you absolutely MUST have done a 4 way gps calibration so you
know how far off your TAS is from actual. 2 is that you try to
fill in most of the blanks. Given those 2 things, I think we
can have a really good performance representation for all.
Thanks for bringing it up Dan!
Tim
[quote]
In my opinion there are way to many combinations on how each of us fly
and operate the engines. The are so many variables on the Lycomings it
is difficult to build a chart with every variation out there. Heck I
would even argue that the same engine moved from one plane to the next
will perform differently, that we can not define a definitive answer.
What we can provide however is generalities to performance numbers, will
any one way we present the numbers meet everyone's perceived needs? No,
but what it will do is give something to compare to.
With that being said Tim did us a great service in creating his website
and it has a page specifically for performance numbers, and while
everyone talks about how important these comparisons are, only two
people out of over 100 have chosen to provide that information. The
information posted on the Eggenfellner site was taken from those two
reports, and is preliminary at best. We have made several changes to the
engine since that data was posted, so it is already out of date and will
need to be changed, but conversely there is a much larger pool of
Lycomings to pull the stat's from, but no one is taking the time to fill
out the data and have Tim post it.
I for one will be traveling up to Tim's so we can fly the planes in like
conditions and we will post the data, but that still will only be one
Lycoming compared to one Subaru, and that is not statistically
significant, but if we all work together as a team and collect the
required data we can only make it better for all of us that follow.
There are enough RV10's flying that we should have a good baseline for
comparison, and as soon as Jan ships this engine batch there will be at
least 10 more Subaru's quickly flying that we can start comparing to, I
also know of at least two rotary's and two V-8's in late construction so
we will have those numbers too.
But until WE all take the time to gather the data we are all just making
conjecture. Lets collect the data and make it visible to all so they can
use it for comparison.
Dan
N289DT RV10E Flying
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LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:55 am Post subject: Call for data (used to be RE: Dan's H6Turbo numbers) |
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I would agree on the WOT and the plate blocking air flow, and this is
not only true on carb engines but also injected engines. The Subaru is
flown wide open throttle, IE we do not set power based on throttle,
rather we change the pitch of the blade to set RPM which in turn
controls the engine/throttle. During take off we watch boost pressure
for the turbo, but once established in a climb we use the prop and leave
the throttle wide open for no restrictions.
It will be very interesting to see the data start to come in for all of
the different 10's. I would think we need to develop a standard spread
sheet that we can publish, and just have each flyer fill in the blanks
for the data. This spreadsheet should be developed by the collective so
we can get what the majority wants to see and we can start graphing
differences between modifications and such.
Myself, I have started to look at designing a molded fairing for the
wing root, that will ease the transition there and attach to the root
gap fairing. I have always been interested in why some airliners have
them and some don't, and have been reading a bunch about them. But still
have no clue on how to determine what is needed to make one flow
correctly. I also have started fairings for flap hinges.
Dan
N289DT RV10E Flying
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rv10(at)sinkrate.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:05 am Post subject: Call for data (used to be RE: Dan's H6Turbo numbers) |
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Dan,
I noticed something interesting on Van's personal RV-10 at the homecoming
this year in Independence, OR. He must have flown through some moisture on
the way cause there were some small water spots on the plane.
The fuselage had a distinct line of grime on it about 6 or 8 inches above
the wing root in the exact shape of the wing itself. This gives you a
pretty good indication of the way air flows in that area. I don't know
anything about aerodynamics to comment as to what it means but I thought you
might be interested in this.
Attached is a snippet from a picture I took of Van's plane with the faint
line on it.
-Ben
40579
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LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:36 am Post subject: Call for data (used to be RE: Dan's H6Turbo numbers) |
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Nice catch this would be interesting to tuft these areas and see what is
going on with it.
THX for the pic
Dan
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:34 pm Post subject: Call for data (used to be RE: Dan's H6Turbo numbers) |
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Actually, at least for Bendix fuel injected engines, and probably TCM
injection as well, WOT will give you just as good mixing and power, if
not better than throttle back a bit. Reason is that carburetors have a
power enrichment circuit to get a rich enough full power mixture. FI
engines don't need that as they match mixture to airflow very well. Also
fuel is inserted at intake port rather than before the throttle. So
retarding throttle to get out of the enrichment circuit helps mixture
distribution on carbed engines.
Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:
| Quote: |
I would agree on the WOT and the plate blocking air flow, and this is
not only true on carb engines but also injected engines. The Subaru is
flown wide open throttle, IE we do not set power based on throttle,
rather we change the pitch of the blade to set RPM which in turn
controls the engine/throttle. During take off we watch boost pressure
for the turbo, but once established in a climb we use the prop and leave
the throttle wide open for no restrictions.
|
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
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