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d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:06 am Post subject: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

At 09:18 PM 10/17/2007, Dave Bigelow wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



The biggest problem I can see with using a gas/ethanol mixture that has 

picked up a load of water (just short of the point of phase separation) is 

what happens in the carb bowl.  The carb tends to cool more than the fuel 

tanks because of the vaporization of the fuel as it is atomized and mixed 

with air.  If phase separation (due to cooling) takes place in the carb 

bowl, it's too late for a filter to do it's work.


	


I think that would be less of a problem.  Since the carburetor is mounted 

to the engine it sees a fair mount of vibration, which would tend to keep 

the fuel / water mixture well agitated and mixed even if it does separate 

out of phase.  The engine won't starve for fuel though it may run lean.  A 

bit of water mixed with the gas probably doesn't hurt; it's a big slug of 

water coming down the line from the tank and _not_ mixed with gas that 

makes things get quiet.



                                 -Dana

--

--

But do you trust the _government_ with semi-automatic assault rifles?

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:24 am Post subject: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

So far no one's mentioned the use of the old standby, the traditional  

chamois, to filter fuel. It works and works well, in  my  experience.  

In third-world places; and Mexico; the %$(at)**&#% locals often pour  

5-10 gallons of water into a barrel of fuel to bring the level up.

They get their money and are far away when the engine quits. Nice  

guys. Chamois doesn't slow the fueling down too much & will keep the  

ol' mill running.

On Oct 18, 2007, at 6:58 AM, Dana Hague wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 At 09:18 PM 10/17/2007, Dave Bigelow wrote:

> 

> <up_country(at)hotmail.com>

>

> The biggest problem I can see with using a gas/ethanol mixture  

> that has picked up a load of water (just short of the point of  

> phase separation) is what happens in the carb bowl.  The carb  

> tends to cool more than the fuel tanks because of the vaporization  

> of the fuel as it is atomized and mixed with air.  If phase  

> separation (due to cooling) takes place in the carb bowl, it's too  

> late for a filter to do it's work.

 I think that would be less of a problem.  Since the carburetor is  

 mounted to the engine it sees a fair mount of vibration, which  

 would tend to keep the fuel / water mixture well agitated and mixed  

 even if it does separate out of phase.  The engine won't starve for  

 fuel though it may run lean.  A bit of water mixed with the gas  

 probably doesn't hurt; it's a big slug of water coming down the  

 line from the tank and _not_ mixed with gas that makes things get  

 quiet.

                                 -Dana

 --

 --

 But do you trust the _government_ with semi-automatic assault rifles?

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:51 am Post subject: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

Taking the Olive jar test one step further:



Put some fuel in the olive jar and let it sit at room temp for a while(Closed lid).



Mark the level of water if there is any(Probably not)



Put in in the fridge for a couple hours and then check to see if there is any more water settled out.



If so, you can expect that water will separate in your fuel at altitude if it gets colder and you better have a way of keeping it out of your carb so you don't get icing or flameouts.

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

Do Not Archive

a58r(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:48 am Post subject: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

My experiences with carb icing is limited to GA. Icing usually occurs  

in the throat/venturi where the temperatures are lower/lower  

pressure. Don't think carb bowl could freeze unless a lot of water  

and bowl temp was at freezing. Never heard of bowl freezing, BIMBWA



regards,

Bob N.    FireFly 070 Old Kolb

http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/

do not archive

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:09 pm Post subject: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

In a message dated 10/18/2007 3:49:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  a58r(at)verizon.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  BIMBWA

	


 

 Got me Bob, what's a BIMBOWAWA   

 Steve

Firefly 007/Floats

do not  archive





See w [quote][b]

a58r(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:26 pm Post subject: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

But(t) I May Be Wrong Again=BIMBWA



BIMBOWAWA= getting caught in the next stall...in the ladies room

DO NOT ARCHIVE

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:36 pm Post subject: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

In a message dated 10/18/2007 6:26:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  a58r(at)verizon.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

BIMBOWAWA= getting caught in the next stall...in the ladies    room



	


 

 Thanks Bob, I thought it meant that your cheap date needed her beverage  freshened.

  

 Steve

 really, do not archive



  [quote][b]

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:41 pm Post subject: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

But I May Be OtherWise A Wise Arse?????do not archive -- please!



On Oct 18, 2007, at 8:29 PM, N27SB(at)aol.com (N27SB(at)aol.com) wrote:

[quote]   In a message dated 10/18/2007 6:26:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, a58r(at)verizon.net (a58r(at)verizon.net) writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

BIMBOWAWA= getting caught in the next stall...in the ladies   room



	


 

 Thanks Bob, I thought it meant that your cheap date needed her beverage freshened.

  

 Steve

 really, do not archive



 [quote][b]  href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com  

[b]

Jim ODay

Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 61
Location: Fargo North Dakota

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:08 pm Post subject: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

The Mr. Funnel experiments are telling and confirms my choice of fuel; that trusty funnel is not perfect.



I only use 100LL from a fuel dispenser at my airport that has a Velcon VF61 filter system for aviation fuel.  The fuel comes out dry and clean.  I use a Mr. Funnel to transfer to my FSII tank.  I have a gascolator on the outlet of my fuel tank that I can sump before flight.  Fuel quality is not an issue.  100LL costs more, but it is not that much of a premium.



My business is  fuel storage tanks.  I will not mess with "pump gas" for my Kolb, or any plane for that matter.  You really do not know what you are getting, I have been in this business for many years, I know.   If it was a designated tank for auto gas, at an airport, no ethanol, I may consider it if the tank is well maintained.



In MN and ND you cannot buy pump gas w/o alcohol, it is the law.  I use it in my car, works OK so far, but my car never leaves the ground.  If you are unlucky enough to buy gas and there is a problem, you will know withing a mile or two.  Looking at the fuel in a clear container is always a good idea. 



We have a tank cleaning service too and you would not believe what comes out of underground storage tanks.  Our guys say that if the pumps had clear hoses, the guy with the $100k BMW would throw up.  The more ethanol, the worse it is.  



http://petro.odayequipment.com/tankcleaning.shtml 

----

http://www.cleanfuelguys.com/index.htm



If there is water you will find bacteria too most likely.  Left unchecked it will create more issues.  Bacteria is not an issue with 100LL (it is the lead - toxic to bugs)  We sell biocide for treating infected tanks, you can test for bacteria and fungus with a $12 test kit (we sell them too).



http://www.petroparts.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=TST



We also specialize in aviation systems and that fuel is dry from the pipeline and the filtration on the dispensing system (if it meets specs) is really good at taking particulate and any water out.  The fuel quality standards for aviation fuel for storage, transport and dispensing are at a much higher standard so you get cleaner fuel.



I went back to the parts counter and asked what they sell for filtering gasoline with ethanol. We have a lot of "pump gas" filters all made by this company:



http://www.cim-tek.com/300biotek.asp



http://www.cim-tek.com/300Series.asp



http://www.cim-tek.com/biomon.pdf



They also have had  "water logs" that are nylon mesh tubes (1/2" dia - 2" dia x 6" - 24") that lay on the tank bottoms and scavenge water.  They hang on a cord and when they are full, you throw them away.  Not popular though, they rarely sell them.



I don't know a lot about what you guys talk about but I do know about clean fuel.   Not every FBO has clean storage or adequate filtration but they start with cleaner gas than the BP or Shell station has under the best of conditions.  



Ethanol has been in the fuel in this part of the country for 20 years.  Most of it is made around here so it is nothing new.  In MN you can have a gasoline dispenser set up for "off road" gasoline w/o alcohol and it is only  for snowmobiles and boats.  They set them up where there are barricades that do not allow to hose to go outside of to stick into your car but you can fill portable gas cans.



My airport where I keep my Kolb has a good fueling system (we made it) and it is convenient to use and I can pay with a CC.  The 100LL is ~$.75 more than pump gas, but I usually only fly 4 gallons a day so it is like a Starbuck coffee premium.  My engine runs good with it and it is one less thing to worry about.



Always do a visual test (I always smell it too) and fly safe.



Jim

do not archive

_________________
Jim O'Day
Fargo, ND
Former Firestar II Builder/Pilot

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:43 pm Post subject: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

Jim

Many thanx your informed comments about fuel. I wonder what you think  

of my (perhaps optomistic) opinion of using a chamois for straining  

fuel?

I also always used PRIST as an anti-bacterial additive. Good? Bad?  

Necessary? Not? (for avgas)

Will be interested to hear what you say.

Thanx



On Oct 19, 2007, at 6:08 PM, Jim ODay wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 The Mr. Funnel experiments are telling and confirms my choice of  

 fuel; that trusty funnel is not perfect.



 I only use 100LL from a fuel dispenser at my airport that has a  

 Velcon VF61 filter system for aviation fuel.  The fuel comes out  

 dry and clean.  I use a Mr. Funnel to transfer to my FSII tank.  I  

 have a gascolator on the outlet of my fuel tank that I can sump  

 before flight.  Fuel quality is not an issue.  100LL costs more,  

 but it is not that much of a premium.



 My business is  fuel storage tanks.  I will not mess with "pump  

 gas" for my Kolb, or any plane for that matter.  You really do not  

 know what you are getting, I have been in this business for many  

 years, I know.   If it was a designated tank for auto gas, at an  

 airport, no ethanol, I may consider it if the tank is well maintained.



 In MN and ND you cannot buy pump gas w/o alcohol, it is the law.  I  

 use it in my car, works OK so far, but my car never leaves the  

 ground.  If you are unlucky enough to buy gas and there is a  

 problem, you will know withing a mile or two.  Looking at the fuel  

 in a clear container is always a good idea.



 We have a tank cleaning service too and you would not believe what  

 comes out of underground storage tanks.  Our guys say that if the  

 pumps had clear hoses, the guy with the $100k BMW would throw up.   

 The more ethanol, the worse it is.



 http://petro.odayequipment.com/tankcleaning.shtml

 ----

 http://www.cleanfuelguys.com/index.htm



 If there is water you will find bacteria too most likely.  Left  

 unchecked it will create more issues.  Bacteria is not an issue  

 with 100LL (it is the lead - toxic to bugs)  We sell biocide for  

 treating infected tanks, you can test for bacteria and fungus with  

 a $12 test kit (we sell them too).



 http://www.petroparts.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc? 

 Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=TST



 We also specialize in aviation systems and that fuel is dry from  

 the pipeline and the filtration on the dispensing system (if it  

 meets specs) is really good at taking particulate and any water  

 out.  The fuel quality standards for aviation fuel for storage,  

 transport and dispensing are at a much higher standard so you get  

 cleaner fuel.



 I went back to the parts counter and asked what they sell for  

 filtering gasoline with ethanol. We have a lot of "pump gas"  

 filters all made by this company:



 http://www.cim-tek.com/300biotek.asp



 http://www.cim-tek.com/300Series.asp



 http://www.cim-tek.com/biomon.pdf



 They also have had  "water logs" that are nylon mesh tubes (1/2"  

 dia - 2" dia x 6" - 24") that lay on the tank bottoms and scavenge  

 water.  They hang on a cord and when they are full, you throw them  

 away.  Not popular though, they rarely sell them.



 I don't know a lot about what you guys talk about but I do know  

 about clean fuel.   Not every FBO has clean storage or adequate  

 filtration but they start with cleaner gas than the BP or Shell  

 station has under the best of conditions.



 Ethanol has been in the fuel in this part of the country for 20  

 years.  Most of it is made around here so it is nothing new.  In MN  

 you can have a gasoline dispenser set up for "off road" gasoline w/ 

 o alcohol and it is only  for snowmobiles and boats.  They set them  

 up where there are barricades that do not allow to hose to go  

 outside of to stick into your car but you can fill portable gas cans.



 My airport where I keep my Kolb has a good fueling system (we made  

 it) and it is convenient to use and I can pay with a CC.  The 100LL  

 is ~$.75 more than pump gas, but I usually only fly 4 gallons a day  

 so it is like a Starbuck coffee premium.  My engine runs good with  

 it and it is one less thing to worry about.



 Always do a visual test (I always smell it too) and fly safe.



 Jim

 do not archive



 --------

 Jim O'Day

 Fargo, ND

 Firestar II





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=140806#140806

Jim ODay

Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 61
Location: Fargo North Dakota

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:32 pm Post subject: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

Hey Russ:



That is a first for me .... "informed".



I do not know a lot about PRIST other than it is common for Jet Fuel to absorb and burn dissolved water to prevent ice crystals from forming at high altitude.  It is not used as much newer jets (private type) because they use fuel heaters.



We recently built a PRIST injection system for a hospital heli-port to replace the aerosol can method of adding PRIST.  Modern refueling trucks have injection systems.  Some suppliers (I think Phillips) sell Jet A with PRIST pre-mixed.  



My Cessna 340 recommends mixing isopropyl  alcohol with the 100LL to remove any water.  I have never done it and I have never had any problems.  I do know it can happen and ice crystals can clog screens.  I have never had a water problem with 100LL other than the time someone stole a fuel cap off my plane and it rained.  I did use isopropyl to dry up the tank.



Just about everyone I ask about mixing alcohol with 100LL look at me cross eyed.  So, I never fly without taking sample from every point - my 340 has 8 points to drain, my Kolb has 1.  I always use a clear jar, hold it to the light and of course take a sniff.  



I know PRIST is used in avgas and it also has a biocide in it to kill any bacteria.  



The big factor with bacteria problems is water.  No water = <1% chance of live bacteria.  (there can be dead bugs or bug exhaust in the fuel though).  



The standard test for aviation fuel is a visual inspection in a "white" bucket.  I think the visual inspection is still 1st.  Using a chamois as a filter is new to me but I suspect it will filter at 1 micron or less.  I really do not know.  I still go for the visual samples and sniff test.



Now I am tapped out of knowledge.  But I am delighted to add my 2 cents.

Jim

My PRIST story:  



We built a jet fuel system for FED EX.   6 months later I got a call that they had grounded 4 Cessna Caravans, a B727 and they had lent fuel to Northwest Air and they grounded a DC9.  Bad fuel.  They were pointing to the tank design and that it had pockets that could collect water/bacteria.  



I was going to leave the key in the door; 10 jet engines and 6 sets of fuel tanks to repair, lost revenue ..... $$$$$ .... man was I sweating. 



Rest of the story:  The line guy got mixed up, instead of filling the PRIST injection system with PRIST, he picked the wrong drum.  That drum had concrete sealer.  End of the story, tanks were OK, replaced injection system, FED EX got to repair the planes.



do not archive

_________________
Jim O'Day
Fargo, ND
Former Firestar II Builder/Pilot

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

 	  Jim ODay wrote: 	
		  



My business is  fuel storage tanks.  I will not mess with "pump gas" for my Kolb, or any plane for that matter.  You really do not know what you are getting, I have been in this business for many years, I know.  



	




Your experience with fuel tanks is actually working against you...  You are concentrating so much on one small detail , that you are missing the big picture.   In the 912-S, Rotax recommends auto gas.  Avgas causes lead deposits, fouling, and all sorts of problems in engines not designed for it.  I would not run 100LL in my 912-S even if it were the same price.  It is also possible to have prblems in your 2 stroke due to fouling of the plugs and rings with 100LL.     



Millions of cars run on auto gas each day, and we dont see hundreds of them on the side of the road each day due to fuel contamination.  That really puts holes in your claims of how bad and dirty auto gas is...  You need to step back, stop staring at dirty gas tanks all day, and look at the big picture.   I run auto gas,  and my fuel filter and carbs are so clean that I could drink out of them.   You are so concentrated on one detail you are missing more important things.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:41 am Post subject: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

At 11:52 PM 10/19/2007, JetPilot wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  ...Rotax recommends auto gas.  Avgas causes lead deposits, fouling, and 

all sorts of problems in engines not designed for it.  I would not run 

100LL in my 912-S even if it were the same price...


	


I've been running avgas in my Cuyuna for the sole reason that it keeps 

better.  For an airplane flown only occasionally during the colder months 

this can be a significant factor.  Haven't had any problems with it and 

neither did the previous owner, though the engine doesn't have that many 

hours on it.  Come next spring, I may switch to auto gas, but then again I 

may not.



Interestingly, the Cuyuna manual says, "Do not use aviation gasoline as it 

may upset carburetion."  Not sure what's up with that unless the jetting 

would be different, though I'm not sure why.



                                 -Dana

--

--

But do you trust the _government_ with semi-automatic assault rifles?

Jim ODay

Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 61
Location: Fargo North Dakota

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:50 am Post subject: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

First, I cant stop "staring" at gas tanks all day, it is my job.  I have seen the big picture an understand what it is.  I have been inside of 100's of storage tanks, I am sure more than anyone else here.  There is a visible difference in the cleanliness of aviation fuel tanks vs. gas station tanks.



The main issues I get involved with dealing in water/bacteria is the internal corrosion and tank failures due to bacteria exhaust.  Cars probably can handle bacteria, sludge, acid and water just fine, obviously they do because you are right, they are not stalled all over.  



I use auto gas every day driving and w/o problems too.  Your points are fine, I do not disagree.  If your Rotax 912 manual says NO 100LL I would not put it in either.  



I guess my point(s) really are; just be extra careful when you are flying with pump gas from the C-Store.  Inspect for water and dirt, filter, do not rely on the octane labels.  You may be getting ethanol or methanol and it may or may not be labeled on the pump.  Labeling rules varies state to state.  



Use your eyes!!  If the gas looks cloudy at all, don't use it even if you filter the heck out of it. Winter gas is different than summer gas, buy fresh auto gas, the VP will change with the seasons.   California has about 7 varieties of gasoline, they call it "boutique fuel", you will get Ethanol in MN weather you like it or not and the pumps are not required to be marked. 



I am aware of the lead deposit and plugs.  Maybe Seafoam will help this  



I WOULD be fine with regular use of auto gas if I knew the pedigree of the product and the condition of the tank.  Short of that, I have other things to worry about.  Plus they only sell 100LL at the field.  



This is reality; We have a customers using "blank" filters.  They are filter cans w/o the element.  Why?  They have dirty tanks and it is a maintenance headache that requires frequent changing.  So they just pass the problem off to the  customers.  Their stores are not dirty looking either, nice modern operations.  --> Don't pour C-Store gas into your plane w/o doing your own QC checks.  



I guess I worry about fuel quality because I deal with problems on a regular basis.  (I could change jobs and sell VG kits)  I suppose that are many other things I should add to the list or trump fuel quality if I was aware of the risks.         



Like it has been said many times, advice here is worth every penny you pay for it.



Fly safe Kolb Buddies.



Jim





do not archive

_________________
Jim O'Day
Fargo, ND
Former Firestar II Builder/Pilot

Last edited by Jim ODay on Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:59 am; edited 4 times in total

gaman(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:24 am Post subject: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

I'm not too sure that 100LL is all that harmful.it was the fuel used to break in my 503 and was used for the next 105 hrs.It run 50 degrees cooler on exhaust temp over car gas,but leaves a white bloom, probably lead,on the ground electrode.Gas lines lived longer with av gas over car gas.I've mixed them frequently on long cross country flights.there is now 550hrs on the 503 with first de-carbon at 475 hrs.



JetPilot <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" 

Jim ODay wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 My business is  fuel storage tanks.  I will not mess with "pump gas" for my Kolb, or any plane for that matter.  You really do not know what you are getting, I have been in this business for many years, I know.  

 

 


	




Your experience with fuel tanks  is actually working against you...  You are concentrating so much on one small detail , that you are missing the big picture.   In the 912-S, Rotax recommends auto gas.  Avgas causes lead deposits, fouling, and all sorts of problems in engines not designed for it.  I would not run 100LL in my 912-S even if it were the same price.  It is also possible to have prblems in your 2 stroke due to fouling of the plugs and rings with 100LL.     



Millions of cars run on auto gas each day, and we dont see hundreds of them on the side of the road each day due to fuel contamination.  That really puts holes in your claims of how bad and dirty auto gas is...  You need to step back, stop staring at dirty gas tanks all day, and look at the big picture.   I run auto gas,  and my fuel filter and carbs are so clean that I could drink out of them.   You are so concentrated on one detail you are missing more important things.



Mike



--------

"NO FEAR" -  If you have no [quote][b]

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:26 am Post subject: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

I would not have that much of a problem putting 100LL Avgas in a 2 stroke, sometimes on a cross country that is all that is available and you have no choice.  A simple changing of plugs and decarbon can fix any problems of lead in the 2 stroke.



In the Rotax 912, I would have to change to a non synthetic oil which does not protect the engine nearly as much, and then change it more frequently to try to keep the lead deposits under control.  Even then there is still a problem with lead deposits everywhere, which is why auto gas is much better in the four stroke 912.  I only buy Shell V-Power Premium gasoline, it does not have methanol in the vast majority of the states.  Again on cross country flights many people use 100LL Avgas because there is no choice, and it works fine, but it is only recommended when no other option exists.



My friend at the airport has a 20 gallon red plastic tank set up with a hand crank pump and a large industrial cartridge type filter to clean his auto gas.   He said it only cost him like 150 bucks to build.   This setup would clean the gas and separate water much better than the MR Funnel.  If one were very worried about the problems Jim was talking about with car gas, this would be a simple solution, and much better than running 100LL in an engine not designed for it.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 9:02 am Post subject: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

Jim,



I worry about getting bad fuel at the filling station.  Since I have aged a 

little, I use 2.5 gallon cans to refuel the FireFly.  I have four of them so 

that I can purchase 10 gallons at a time.  The nice thing about these small 

cans is that it is very easy to look into the can to see if there is any 

water or other impurities in the fuel.  And it is very easy to prevent 

contaminants from entering the FireFly tank.



I never completely empty the can into the FireFly tank.  This captures the 

crud in the re filler can.  When I am going to refill all of the cans, I 

check for water, etc. before I put the oil in the can.  If there is a little 

bit in the bottom of the can, I don't worry about it.  If the build up of 

water is substantial, I will empty the can out dry.  Otherwise, I use the 

gas in the bottom of the can to dilute the oil before refilling the can at 

the filling station.



I remove the FireFly gas tank and dump it every spring.  I never find more 

than a nickel volume of water in the tank.  When I hangared in the 

Mississippi River bottoms, I kept my tank topped off.  But here in 

Winchester, IN, I only top up after 2.5 gallons have been run out of the tank.  



In checking the Bing carburetor flow bowl, I have never found any water.  So 

far I have had good luck.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

henry.voris

Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Posts: 116
Location: Pueo Field, Kula, Maui

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:11 am Post subject: Re: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

Jack,



Does the fuel you use contain ethanol? 



If so what % ?



Thanks

_________________
Henry
Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo

Do Not Archive

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:55 pm Post subject: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

At 12:11 PM 10/20/07 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Jack,



Does the fuel you use contain ethanol? 



If so what % ?



Thanks



--------

Henry

Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo



Do Not Archive




	


Henry,



So far I have avoided the use of gasoline with ethanol.  But, I believe, it 

will be mandatory to use ethanol in Indiana starting New Years Day, 2008 in 

Indiana.



I do not believe there is a greater chance of getting water in the gasoline 

than at present, because the ethanol is mixed with pipeline gasoline in/at 

the truck filling park.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:10 pm Post subject: Gas, Ethanol and Mr.Funnel

At 10:26 AM 10/20/2007, JetPilot wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  ...there is still a problem with lead deposits everywhere, which is why 

auto gas is much better in the four stroke 912...


	


When 100LL first came out and 80 was starting to get hard to find, a lot of 

guys were using Alcor TCP to prevent lead fouling in their engines.  You 

don't hear much about it any more.  Some people say Marvel Mystery Oil 

works just as well, I dunno.



                                 -Dana

--

--

But do you trust the _government_ with semi-automatic assault rifles?

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