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Kitfox vs. Van's RV
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darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:05 am Post subject: Kitfox vs. Van's RV

I ran into something quite entertaining yesterday.  You see, I monitor the vansairforce.com forums because I would like to builld an RV7 or 8 (maybe even a 10) after the Kitfox.  Anyway, I saw a post on that forum titled "Anyone ever considered a Kitfox"?  I had to bite...as I was reading through the posts, I couldn't believe what was being said!  Almost everyone that replied new almost nothing about the Kitfox but none the less had a comment along the lines of this: 



"Don't build a KitFox until you've flown one and are sure you like it. They don't fly like RVs"...Brilliant statement!



or



"Another means of consideration is go to fly-ins and count the RVs vs. KitFoxes. Check the ratio of started vs. completed kits."...I think Van's has around 5500 flying aircraft.  This is a shot in the dark but I would bet there are close to that number of Kitfoxes that have been finished and flown.



I got a chuckle out of the whole thing and in my mind this comparison is about the same as comparing an RV-7 to a Citation 10!  Or, the proverbial apples to oranges.  To their credit, there were a couple of guys and even a kitfox owner or two that chimed in to state that these airplanes have missions that are 180 degrees of each other and the Kitfox is excellent especially when in its element.  Here is the link if any of you want a laugh!



http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=22780



As for me, I would love to have an RV down the road for my cross country flights and some light acro but my Kitfox will suit me just fine!  Lets see one of the RV guys take their plane into Fish Lake, Mile Hi, a dirt road, a corn field or any of the other "real" backcountry strips out there...

_________________
Darin Hawkes
Series 7
914 Turbo
Kaysville, Utah

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:12 am Post subject: Re: Kitfox vs. Van's RV

 	  Quote: 	
		  I saw a post on that forum titled "Anyone ever considered a Kitfox"? 	




My reply to that question is "telling someone what airplane to buy is like telling them what woman...or man...to marry.  It depends on what you want and like."  I wanted a Kitfox and I really like it a lot!



It doesn't fly like a cub either, not to mention the RV.



Do not archive

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

kerrjohna(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:33 am Post subject: Kitfox vs. Van's RV

For me the comparison is dirt bikes and road bikes.  I have a Classic IV and an RV 9 and match the machine to the task.  And now I am building a Hatz Classic for yet another type of flight.  "Just another line on the balance sheet."

  

 John Kerr

  

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: "darinh" <gerns25(at)netscape.net> 



[quote] --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "darinh" 

 

 I ran into something quite entertaining yesterday. You see, I monitor the 

 vansairforce.com forums because I would like to builld an RV7 or 8 (maybe even a 

 10) after the Kitfox. Anyway, I saw a post on that forum titled "Anyone ever 

 considered a Kitfox"? I had to bite...as I was reading through the posts, I 

 couldn't believe what was being said! Almost everyone that replied new almost 

 nothing about the Kitfox but none the less had a comment along the lines of 

 this: 

 

 "Don't build a KitFox until you've flown one and are sure you like it. They 

 don't fly like RVs"...Brilliant statement! 

 

 or 

 

   "Anoth er means of consideration is go to fly-ins and count the RVs vs. KitFoxes. 

 Check the ratio of started vs. completed kits."...I think Van's has around 5500 

 flying aircraft. This is a shot in the dark but I would bet there are close to 

 that number of Kitfoxes that have been finished and flown. 

 

 I got a chuckle out of the whole thing and in my mind this comparison is about 

 the same as comparing an RV-7 to a Citation 10! Or, the proverbial apples to 

 oranges. To their credit, there were a couple of guys and even a kitfox owner 

 or two that chimed in to state that these airplanes have missions that are 180 

 degrees of each other and the Kitfox is excellent especially when in its 

 element. Here is the link if any of you want a laugh! 

 

 http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t 2780 

 

 As for me, I would love to have an RV down the road for my cross count  ry fli  s.com/  [quote][b]

wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:04 am Post subject: Re: Kitfox vs. Van's RV

I may get ostracized for this but... I have to admit that, looking at just the performance numbers, the RVs (the 9 in particular) looks compelling. One point that is often raised in favor of the Kitfox is short field performance but factory quoted landing roll and takeoff numbers look the same to me for both kits. That's amazing considering how much faster the RV is. 



How much fun an airplane is to fly is a subjective thing. When I was comparing the two it came down to money. In the used market, I could have purchased three Kitfoxes for the cost of one RV9. Cost of operation seems to follow a similar formula. No contest there. On the other hand, If I were building, those same numbers become an argument for the opposite choice.  The RV is one of the few (only?) airplanes on the used experimental market that sell for significantly more than the cost of the kit..

_________________
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:21 am Post subject: Re: Kitfox vs. Van's RV

Hahah  I just reead the RV forum ,



They are think the Kitfox is hard to fly ?   

heck maybe some flying lessons ? 

Someone post my videos to them and say here is what your RV cannot do  ......  www.cfisher.com

RV flyers are just F1 Rocket wannabees anyhow   <snicker> 



2 of the fastest F 1's are within 40 miles of me .  one of them came into a flyin this summer 3 miles from me  it was a grassstrip 1800 long.  He was out of ther in under  1000 feet but with 300 HP  i guess so  and burning 3 to 4 times a Kitfox.  



LOL

_________________
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer
Hundreds of Kitfox Movies
Most viewed Kitfox on youtube
Most popular on youtube
Highest rated on youtube

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:27 am Post subject: Kitfox vs. Van's RV

Darin,  I reminds me of the time we were returning from Idaho and the six of 

us were on the deck chasing coyotes and practicing coordinated turns over 

the river.  The RV guys were busy talking about manifold pressure, airspeed 

and such.  I guess they were so high, they couldn't identify anything except 

what was on their instrument panels.



Been to Fish Lake and dirt road.  Flew over Mile High and no thanks.



Right on regarding mission.  RV great airplane for travel.  Kitfox great 

airplane for flying.



Lowell



---

wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:49 am Post subject: Re: Kitfox vs. Van's RV

Why is the RV not a great plane for flying?



 	  Quote: 	
		  Right on regarding mission. RV great airplane for travel. Kitfox great airplane for flying.

_________________
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)

darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: Kitfox vs. Van's RV

Luis,



You can't simply look at different airplanes only using performance numbers unless you are only comparing one aspect of the flight regime...such as air speed or climb, etc.  



The RV-9 does have great performance numbers and so does the 6, 7, 8, and 10 but the entire flight envelope of the RV is completely different than the Kitfox.  For example...my old Model 3 would climb out at around 800 fpm and my buddies 182 will climb out around 1000 fpm...better right?  Well, maybe but it depends on how you look at it.  He may be climbing faster but I am off the ground in 200ft and because of the speed difference, my angle of climb is greater than his and I can get off the ground and clear obstacles much sooner than he can.  



Don't get me wrong, I think the RV's are awesome but for the role the Kitfox is built for, it is hard to beat!  And besides, you may be able to get the RV-9 off the ground in roughly the same take off roll as your Kitfox but not off the same surface conditions.  The RV is made for pavement and well manicured grass strips...anything somewhat bumpy or rutted is a no go in an RV.  Again, different airplanes, completely different roles...both awesome!!



Lowell,



I also have done Fish Lake and many others but not Mile Hi...that one is one I will probably enjoy flying over but not actually touching down on but who knows...

_________________
Darin Hawkes
Series 7
914 Turbo
Kaysville, Utah

RRTRACK(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:49 pm Post subject: Kitfox vs. Van's RV

I have been flying Avids and Kitfoxes for 20 years. Last  year I bought an RV-6A with the lycoming 0-360 (180 HP). It is a great flying  aircraft and very well designed. I flew it from Las Vegas to Wisconsin in 10  hours averaging around 200 MPH. It is a great cross country machine that can  handle a reasonable grass strip.

     But I like flying low over rivers and country side and  my Kitfox V does that very well. They are both great airplanes for there  missions. I have now sold the RV because I do not travel far normally and the  $50 per hour operating cost took a lot of the fun out of it. My Kitfox cost  about $15 per hour and I always like the idea that I could land almost anywhere  at low speeds if I had to (or wanted to). I would recommend the RV's to anyone  looking to go farther then 200 miles regularly. It also was a very good basic  aerobatic airplane. I'll miss that part.   

 Mark

Kitfox 5 Vixen

912UL IVO

Hartford,  Wisconsin





See [quote][b]

wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: Kitfox vs. Van's RV

 	  Quote: 	
		  The RV-9 does have great performance numbers and so does the 6, 7, 8, and 10 but the entire flight envelope of the RV is completely different than the Kitfox. For example...my old Model 3 would climb out at around 800 fpm and my buddies 182 will climb out around 1000 fpm...better right? Well, maybe but it depends on how you look at it. He may be climbing faster but I am off the ground in 200ft and because of the speed difference, my angle of climb is greater than his and I can get off the ground and clear obstacles much sooner than he can. 	




I have to agree that you don't see many RVs with balloon tires but I just wonder if that's really because they can't. I'm looking at all the performance numbers and when comparing a late model Kitfox  to an RV9, they all look pretty close to me. Landing/takeoff roll, stall, Vx, Vy, rate of climb, they're all within a few knots (within 50 ft for landing/takeoff).  Maybe the Kitfox can get into that 500ft strip safer than the RV can but how many of us fly into runways that short? Does the Kitfox poses some ineffable flying quality that the RV doesn't?

_________________
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)

wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: Kitfox vs. Van's RV

 	  Quote: 	
		  But I like flying low over rivers and country side and my Kitfox V does that very well. 	




The difference in cost of operation is certainly huge. That and cost of purchase is why I fly a kitfox. But was there anything else about the RV that prevented you from fly it low over rivers and countryside? Are you doing it so slow it would be dangerous in an RV?

_________________
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)

RRTRACK(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:17 pm Post subject: Kitfox vs. Van's RV

I like the high wing for looking around, the RV slow cruise was around 160  MPH, with the Kitfox it is closer to 80 MPH. With the RV I only used the rudder  for take offs and landings, and flew with two fingers on the stick. If I would  have kept it I would have installed an auto pilot. It was a great form of  transportation, in fact I called it the "time machine".  My test flight in  the RV was a 100 mile trip down the Colorado River into California and back form  Bolder City Nevada. That is some very unforgiving area to fly in and the RV was  awesome. I am a big fan of RV's but the Kitfox is just a lot more fun to fly in  Wisconsin and maybe someday I will put floats on it to explore yet another  world.   

 Mark

Kitfox 5 Vixen

912UL IVO

Hartford,  Wisconsin





See [quote][b]

shinco(at)bright.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:52 pm Post subject: Kitfox vs. Van's RV

yea it does.the wings can fold on a Kitfox.and you can take it home each 

day if needed to do so.can the Vans do that.and landing in+out of short 

fields that is what the kitfox is all about.and what it can do..  even 

150 ft long fields if there is a need to do so.can the Vans do that all 

so?can a Vans land on a sand bar in the middle of a river?so you can go 

fishing where no one else can land?I do not think so.  Steve Shinabery 

KF2.,N554KF

wingnut wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

> The RV-9 does have great performance numbers and so does the 6, 7, 8, and 10 but the entire flight envelope of the RV is completely different than the Kitfox. For example...my old Model 3 would climb out at around 800 fpm and my buddies 182 will climb out around 1000 fpm...better right? Well, maybe but it depends on how you look at it. He may be climbing faster but I am off the ground in 200ft and because of the speed difference, my angle of climb is greater than his and I can get off the ground and clear obstacles much sooner than he can.

>     

 I have to agree that you don't see many RVs with balloon tires but I just wonder if that's really because they can't. I'm looking at all the performance numbers and when comparing a late model Kitfox  to an RV9, they all look pretty close to me. Landing/takeoff roll, stall, Vx, Vy, rate of climb, they're all within a few knots (within 50 ft for landing/takeoff).  Maybe the Kitfox can get into that 500ft strip safer than the RV can but how many of us fly into runways that short? Does the Kitfox poses some ineffable flying quality that the RV doesn't?

 --------

 Luis Rodriguez

 Model IV 1200

 Rotax 912UL

 Flying Weekly

 Laurens, SC (34A)

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141832#141832

wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: Kitfox vs. Van's RV

 	  Quote: 	
		  I like the high wing for looking around, the RV slow cruise was around 160 MPH, with the Kitfox it is closer to 80 MPH. 	




Good point about the high wing. That does make for a nice view when flyign low. Interesting point on the slow flight though. What would happen in an RV if you pulled back power even more and let it slow down to 80? Would it fly poorly at that speed? 



No need to get angry Steve. I'm just asking. I've never owned an RV and I love my Kitfox... But honestly though.. 150 ft landing roll for a model 4? I thought it was more like 250ft?

_________________
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:27 pm Post subject: Kitfox vs. Van's RV

Mark sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  [RV-6A] also was a very good basic aerobatic airplane. I'll miss that part.


	


So is a Kitfox.  Towards the end of my initial 40 hours of flight 

testing I had a local, professional airshow pilot, Tim Weber, take my 

Model IV up twice to run it through its paces (I have no aerobatic 

experience...yet).  He did loops, aileron and barrel rolls, 

hammerheads, Immelmanns, a split-S, and both cuban and lazy eights.



Tim said he loved the airplane.  He also said that he didn't think 

snap rolls were a good idea.



Mike G.

N728KF

Phoenix, AZ

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:33 pm Post subject: Kitfox vs. Van's RV

 	  Quote: 	
		  But honestly though.. 150 ft landing roll for a model 4? I thought 

it was more like 250ft?


	


Seriously!



I once took off in my tricycle-gear Model IV-1200 Speedster (short 

wings) in 125 feet (measured)!  This was with 1/2 flaps (10 degrees) 

off a paved runway at 1475 feet MSL on a very warm day with full fuel 

and me (200 lbs) on board and probably 20 pounds of crap behind the 

seat.  The airplane was powered by a Rotax 912S (100 HP) with an Ivo 

medium in-flight adjustable prop.



Mike G.

N728KF

Phoenix, AZ

shinco(at)bright.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:05 am Post subject: Kitfox vs. Van's RV

A kitfox 2 with a 85 hp Jabiru.will come close to the 150 ft.for take 

off. I have not done this yet but planning to do so..U need to talk to 

Jabiru engine dealer at 518-851-2095..I know this sounds unreal but..   

even at 250ft  WOW..can the RV do that?..but all so my kitfox can not do 

160-200mph either.but this is not what it was built for.it was built so 

I can go fishing... Steve S     KF2    554KF

wingnut wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

> I like the high wing for looking around, the RV slow cruise was around 160 MPH, with the Kitfox it is closer to 80 MPH.

>     

 Good point about the high wing. That does make for a nice view when flyign low. Interesting point on the slow flight though. What would happen in an RV if you pulled back power even more and let it slow down to 80? Would it fly poorly at that speed? 

 No need to get angry Steve. I'm just asking. I've never owned an RV and I love my Kitfox... But honestly though.. 150 ft landing roll for a model 4? I thought it was more like 250ft?

 --------

 Luis Rodriguez

 Model IV 1200

 Rotax 912UL

 Flying Weekly

 Laurens, SC (34A)

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141870#141870

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:25 am Post subject: Kitfox vs. Van's RV

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Steve Shinabery [shinco(at)bright.net]

 A kitfox 2 with a 85 hp Jabiru.will come close to the 150 ft.for take 

 off.


	


With a decent headwind, low density altitude, light configuration and fine pitch prop, it probably will, Steve. But is there a point in it? I would never try to land on a field that is only 150 ft long as I would never dare to take off from it. I'd rather leave marginal stuff to test pilots.

Incidentally, the shortest take-off I have ever experienced was with a Slepcev Storch and it was most probably due to the slats on the wing leading edges. On the other hand, those slats create a tremendous drag and the cruise speed was slower than my Kitfox.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:03 am Post subject: Re: Kitfox vs. Van's RV

 	  Quote: 	
		  With a decent headwind, low density altitude, light configuration and fine pitch prop, it probably will, Steve. But is there a point in it? I would never try to land on a field that is only 150 ft long as I would never dare to take off from it. I'd rather leave marginal stuff to test pilots. 

	




Michel,   I have several videos here of my  Kitfox IV   on you tube. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg1qKTvHOAg   150'  easy take offs.



I can clear a 75 foot obstacle in about 500 to 600 feet distance , mind you there is little margin for error. 



same  short runway  550 feet long i land in skis into the hangar ( not literally)   here  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0COIbiwm9g

plus  2 feet of powder helps slow you down. 



I can land in 150 to 200 feet by hitting it perfectly  but no margin for error like having a dead end.   This is one of the best parts of having a Kitfox is finding and exploring it's wonderful attributes.  



For short take offs  a few contributing factors include,

-light weight

-power     ie high power to weight ratio   - Rotax 

- longer prop certainly helps.

-Flaperons - I have over 30 degrees available on my IV and contrary to some other's  "beliefs"  my  data and factual flying and use of them show time and time again that using your flaps over 30 degrees for take off certainly gets your weight from gear to Wings faster and will help you break ground or water quicker although some limit theirs for 20 degrees only.  I am open  to argument's on this fact as well.   On the note of flaps  over 20 degree on landing does not seem to help much.    



It like you  got the tools ( kitfox ) now go use it !! Kinda like owning a RV and cruising at 80 mph

RRTRACK(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:48 am Post subject: Kitfox vs. Van's RV

With flaps the RV can fly around at 80 MPH, but you need to pay a  lot of attention to airspeed and flying it so it's not comfortable or relaxing  for me. Like to carry enough extra airspeed to handle a big downdraft or wind  sheer when at low altitudes.

   "Jimmy's" video of the Kitfox IV speedster shows that model Kitfox  doing aerobatics but I would not try it in my long wing Vixen. The wings flex to  much and not enough ailerons control for me.

   I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just not comfortable  with these things.

  

 There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold  pilots!

 I rent a Super Decathlon to get aerobatic time when I feel the need. Again  different mission.   

 Mark

Kitfox 5 Vixen

912UL IVO

Hartford,  Wisconsin





See [quote][b]

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