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ChangDriver
Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 266
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Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:13 am Post subject: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
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I have read the jabs at FAST posted here. I am new to formation flight and the RPA. I have had the distinct opportunity to fly with Drew Blahnick and proofread the new RPA formation manual. I also helped provide the student perspective as I was learning formation while proofreading the documents.
Flying has some inherent risks to it. Formation flying adds to those risks. Drew has spent countless hours writing and rewriting the manual. He has used manuals from the Air Force, Navy, former formation manuals, etc, etc to draft the new version. It is an excellent work. The chapter on tactical formation is in the works.
FAST was a way to increase the safety of formation flight for members of the signatories, of which the RPA is one. As a CFI, I try to make sure that my students are safe. FAST is doing the same for those who wish to fly in formation. Can you go learn formation from a former military pilot or someone who knows formation flight and never crack open a FAST document. Sure. But why would you? How do you know, for instance, if the hand and aircraft signals you learn are the same ones someone else knows? What about recommended takeoff and landing intervals? FAST standardized all this so that the folks flying T-6s, T-28s, P-51s, Yak-52s, CJs, L-39s, L-29, etc, etc all learn formation flight in a similar fashion. This increases the safety of the learning process and formation flight. Watch any Heritage Flight at an airshow and you'll see why this is important.
Additionally, if you don't want to wear a chute or nomex that is fine. All FAST is saying is that for events where FAST rules apply, you must follow FAST guidelines. As far as chutes are concerned, remember there is a FAR specifying when one is to be worn. Some aspects of formation flight may venture into areas where the bank or pitch attitude of your aircraft will require you to wear one. Are you less safe without a chute and not wearing nomex? I think you are. But it is your life and your skin. You decide. You want to break FARs, your choice.
All we need to do is keep bending aluminum and the FAA will start taking a look at the safety of warbird operation and could place restrictions on formation flight. Then we all lose.
Go read the new manual. Keep an open mind. I know for a fact that it was written with the key concept of safety of the pilots and our aircraft in mind.
Fly often, stay safe,
Craig Winkelmann, CFI
Nanchang CJ-6
[quote][b]
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m Guest
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Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:33 pm Post subject: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
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Well... Sorry, I can't help it Craig... And I hope I don't blow a good
future friendship with a neighbor!
I agree with everything you said, and my hat is off to RPA and FAST in
99.8% of all areas. It's that 0.2% that I post about here. So to
everyone reading this, please keep the percentages in proportion.
You said this: "Additionally, if you don't want to wear a chute or nomex
that is fine. All FAST is saying is that for events where FAST rules
apply, you must follow FAST guidelines. As far as chutes are concerned,
remember there is a FAR specifying when one is to be worn. Some aspects
of formation flight may venture into areas where the bank or pitch
attitude of your aircraft will require you to wear one. Are you less
safe without a chute and not wearing nomex? I think you are. But it is
your life and your skin. You decide. You want to break FARs, your
choice."
I have been told on more than one occasion that a FAST training session
is obviously a time where FAST rules apply, and that makes sense really.
There is an RPA FAST guideline that says that Flight Suits must be worn.
Drew and I have talked about this personally in the past, and the reason
for this point of view has been clearly discussed until the horse is
dead and buried. I would like to make the suggestion that Flight Suits
not be required for FAST TRAINING. Instead the wording to be changed to
"recommended but not required". On the other hand, for events where the
RPA is showing the flag... As in events where RPA FAST card members are
flying and representing RPA itself, I personally have no problem
what-so-ever with ANY organization specifying a dress code. Period...
End of stories (as Sergei would say). However, it is my firm opinion,
and it will never change... That worthwhile pilot training (and FAST
training most certainly meets that definition) should never be withheld
simply because a person does not own, or desire to wear (whatever) a
Flight Suit. Please, no one bring up the first word about "SAFETY".
This issue has been decided LONG ago.
Second, as you said, there is a FAR that specifies when parachutes shall
be worn. I would like to suggest here that the RPA rules be changed to
read: RPA members and trainees will wear parachutes as specified in the
FAR". Keep in mind Craig that single seat aircraft pilots are NOT
required to wear a chute, and yes... I have checked with four FISDO's on
that issue, it is accurate.
In your posting you said: " But it is your life and your skin. You
decide. You want to break FARs, your choice."
If that is in fact RPA's current stance on parachutes, then please
disregard this posting... But I don't think that it is. I would very
much like to be wrong, so if I am ... Lay it on me, please.
Respectfully,
Mark Bitterlich
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ChangDriver
Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 266
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Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
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Mark:
First, let me tell you that I believe in open debate and that two parties can agree to disagree. So no worries on future friendships!!
Here are the RPA guidelines from the website:
Do I have to wear a flight suit to fly at RPA events?
Flight suits are ONLY REQUIRED during Formation Training sorties conducted at RPA events. However,we strongly urge you to wear a nomex flight suit during all your flying in your warbird. You will find just about everyone who attends RPA Fly-Ins is in a flight suit. It's an important piece of safety equipment that if maintained, may save your skin during an aircraft accident/fire. Besides, where else are you going to put the formation or membership patch?
Do I have to wear a parachute when flying at RPA events?
Only if you are conducting formation training with a backseat instructor (or occupant), in this case you must have a parachute for both seats with current repack as directed by Federal Aviation Regulations concerning aerobatics. Almost all RPA FormationTraining sorties will meet the definition of aerobatic flight due to manuevers flown, so we are meeting the regs. If you don't have a chute for your backseat for the RPA FAST fly-in, let the ortganizer know, often we can share and cover folks needs.
SO....you only need nomex at an RPA EVENT. If you are flying locally doing training, or flying for fun nomex is optional and not required. I think this supports your comment of "On the other hand, for events where the RPA is showing the flag... As in events where RPA FAST card members are flying and representing RPA itself, I personally have no problem what-so-ever with ANY organization specifying a dress code."
As far as chutes are concerned, you are 100% correct that a single seat aircraft is exempt AND so is a two-seat aircraft if only one person is in the plane. I see nothing in the above RPA statement that conflicts with this.
As an aside, single layer nomex provided little in the way of true fire protection. If you really want fire protection, you need to wear stuff like race car drivers do or wear something like carbon-x undergarments. I own five nomex suits (OK, I'm nuts but the last two I bought brand new on eBay for $3 each) mostly because we wear them in Civil Air Patrol flying (yeah, yeah, yeah - Cessna 172s and 182s). There are other options in CAP, but those uniforms contain polyester and I don't like wearing polyester stuff as it will melt to you in a fire. Wearing nomex is hot but I prefer it over polyester!
Regards,
Craig
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Gpw678(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:18 pm Post subject: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
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Hi all,
Not sure if you can help.
We fly often here in South Africa in our Yaks and like you guys have formation courses. (Basic formation to aero formation and some tail chase fun)
We usually have between 12 and 20 per course which is 5 days long and 3 sorties a day. For instructors, we fly in RAF fast jet guys and use local SAAF guys and also some ex air force guys. All of which are great guys and awesome pilots (as you would expect)
My question is, I wonder how our SOP's differ from yours? Is there any way I can get a copy of your fast manual? I will be happy to send over a copy of our SOP's to any of you.
Ours are mostly based on what the RAF use, but changed a little to accommodate Yaks. SAAF sops are also largely based on the RAF, so there is very little to do to bring all up to speed.
Thanks for your help,
Fly safe, have fun
Gerald Williams
[quote][b]
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brian-1927(at)lloyd.com Guest
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Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:43 pm Post subject: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
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On Oct 31, 2007, at 7:24 PM, Craig Winkelmann, CFI wrote:
Quote: | As an aside, single layer nomex provided little in the way of true
fire protection.
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So there is no real technical reason to wear one. Hmm.
Quote: | If you really want fire protection, you need to wear stuff like
race car drivers do or wear something like carbon-x undergarments.
I own five nomex suits (OK, I'm nuts but the last two I bought
brand new on eBay for $3 each) mostly because we wear them in Civil
Air Patrol flying (yeah, yeah, yeah - Cessna 172s and 182s). There
are other options in CAP, but those uniforms contain polyester and
I don't like wearing polyester stuff as it will melt to you in a
fire. Wearing nomex is hot but I prefer it over polyester!
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So which is a greater risk to a pilot: fire in the cockpit or heat
prostration/heatstroke? I know that I have overheated and suffered
impaired performance on more than one occasion while flying on a
summer day while wearing a Nomex flight suit. I can't remember when
*anyone* has had a cockpit fire.
That's the problem with risk analysis. Cockpit fire scares the snot
out of everyone so we of course want to provide protection. OTOH, the
greater risk probably comes from an impaired lead or wingman who has
flown several hops, hasn't had enough water, and is dehydrated and
overheated. This is a much more likely scenario than cockpit fire and
a Nomex flight suit certainly doesn't help.
Does anyone know if they make Nomex kilts? Now *that* would be a hoot.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
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dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co Guest
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Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:04 am Post subject: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
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Brian,
I'm sure I can have one made for you in any color you want if that's what
you desire......!
Dennis
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ChangDriver
Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 266
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Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:28 am Post subject: Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
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Brian:
Heat stroke...aren't you taking it a bit far? I fly all day long is South Florida doing Civil Air Patrol Cadet Orientation flights in a C-182 wearing a Nomex suit. All I can say is drink lots of water and you are fine. Common sense.
Also, I have read of scenarios of smoke in the cockpit. Guy slides the canopy open to get rid of it and woosh...face full of fire. Wearing a kilt and your fry your testicles. Wear nomex and your can still participate in other recreational activities!!
Gerald:
The RPA Formation manual (awesome work) is at: www.flyredstar.org. Look at the top and find the Formation Tab. The to the Wing Pilot Course. It is all there.
Craig
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brian-1927(at)lloyd.com Guest
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Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:09 am Post subject: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
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On Nov 1, 2007, at 5:28 AM, Craig Winkelmann, CFI wrote:
Quote: |
<capav8r(at)gmail.com>
Brian:
Heat stroke...aren't you taking it a bit far?
|
Well, it depends on how you define heat stroke. If you want to use
that to refer to the advanced stages of Perhaps not all the way to
heatstroke but there are levels of hyperthermia. I know that I have
inadvertently gone over the line from OK to early stages of
hyperthermia without knowing it ahead of time. It is only when I
stepped down from the aircraft and started to walk that I realized
how impaired I was. Remember, if you are experiencing thirst you are
already dehydrated and suffering from impairment.
Quote: | I fly all day long is South Florida doing Civil Air Patrol Cadet
Orientation flights in a C-182 wearing a Nomex suit. All I can say
is drink lots of water and you are fine. Common sense.
|
A C-182 is a high wing and provides protection from the sun. Sitting
in a CJ or Yak and you have the full heat-load of the sun on you. Add
to that sitting on the ground waiting to roll and you can get pretty
warm. Not the same situation as the C-182. Also, while you are
concentrating on the mission you might not be listening to the
warning bells your body is trying to send you.
You are right that the threat is less from hyperthermia than fire but
the *RISK* is greater because it is *MUCH* more likely to happen.
That is the problem people run into when getting into these
discussions. They mistake risk for threat.
Quote: | Also, I have read of scenarios of smoke in the cockpit. Guy slides
the canopy open to get rid of it and woosh...face full of fire.
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And how often does that happen? I don't know of a single case of fire
in the cockpit in a Yak or CJ. Perhaps there has been one but I am
not aware of it. Feel free to enlighten me as to the frequency of the
occurrence. Regardless, it doesn't seem to be much of a risk given
the infrequency of occurrence.
OTOH, I bet that there are several people suffering from the early
stages of hyperthermia at every summertime afternoon training
session. They may not realize what it is. They may just think it is
nerves, fatigue, a touch of nausea from the yank-n-bank, and/or
thirst. The key point is that they ARE impaired and not operating as
safely as they could be. Would they be better off if they didn't have
on a Nomex suit? Perhaps. Are they less safe if there is a fire?
Perhaps.
The whole point of my post is that this is not a cut-and-dried issue.
It is possible that wearing a Nomex suit is a greater risk to your
overall safety than not wearing one. I am of the opinion that this
might be so (certainly in summer) but mostly I am encouraging people
to think about the issue rather than just accepting that something is
so because everyone else does. All I am saying is that, in response
to someone saying, "wearing Nomex makes you safer," I am responding,
"well, maybe not."
I do think that having the organization dictate how the pilot chooses
to dress in his/her cockpit is the wrong thing to do. (But we have
been here before and I pissed Drew off then too.
Quote: | Wearing a kilt and your fry your testicles. Wear nomex and your
can still participate in other recreational activities!!
|
Well, we know that Nomex is not much protection. You even said so.
Still, I was mostly just trying to inject a bit of levity into these
proceedings. There is a tendency to take these positions way too
seriously. Besides, the Boys like a nice cool breeze. OTOH, I suspect
that the crotch straps from the 'chute and harness might chafe a bit.
Hmmm, if I wore silk boxers ...
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
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jorgen.nielsen(at)mweb.co Guest
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Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:07 pm Post subject: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
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Interesting debate. Some thoughts...
When evaluating risk / threat / likelihood, one should also consider the
likelihood of needing that nomex esp. in a formo training sortie. My
understanding, is that is when the wear thereof is mandatory as per RPA.
What I am trying to say, is how does the fact that one is doing formo
training going to result in a situation where nomex will help? What are the
likely scenarios - will a "touch" result in a flash fire where the suit
would be of value?
I think some of the debate is fuelled (pun intended) by the cover your ass
situation. Insurance and lawyers come into it then. Its that question
asked in court after the accident, "so can you confirm you were NOT wearing
any commonly accepted safety equipment?"
Here in SA flying ex-mil jets, our authority mandate all safety equipment
must be in place. Both with the aircraft and pilot. As far as the pilot is
concerned, this means boots, nomex flightsuit and helmet. So the issue is
clear, if you don’t wear these, you are breaking regs. On any and all
flights.
This does not apply to other aircraft. Here we see a mix, some pilots wear
the flightsuits, gloves, helmets (on every flight), others go in shorts /
t-shirt. This applies whether one is flying an Extra 300, Pitts, Zlin, Yak
or whatever. Those that fly the Yaks etc tend more to the flightsuits.
I don’t think you will ever get agreement because its subjective.
My personal feeling is that the flightsuit is better, not just for fire but
also for general protection - some covering is better than bare skin. If I
had jumped and was landing in trees, I would rather have a flightsuit,
gloves and boots on than trainers, shorts and a t-shirt. Also if you
dehydrating in the flightsuit, would you anyway not also be dehydrating in
shorts, all other things being equal? I.e., does it make such a difference?
There are 2 fire incidents I know of - one an L-29 catching fire in flight
(battery) and one Yak that hit powerlines on landing, crashed and caught
fire. In both these occasions the nomex suit was preferred and beneficial,
hugely so in the case of the L-29. The Yak driver did not have one and
sustained burns which would have been less severe had he worn a suit.
Then again, I mostly fly my Yak in shorts & a T, whether doing formo, acro
or just tooling around. Gets bl**dy hot in Pretoria!
Jorgen
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MarkWDavis
Joined: 03 Jan 2007 Posts: 104 Location: Syracuse, KS
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Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:34 pm Post subject: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
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Brian,
If your flight suits had been through a ship's laundry as many times as
mine have, they'd be nearly like cotton. Almost see through! It made them
nice and cool until you put a nylon g-suit and torso harness over the top.
Probably not much flame retardant left in them. In the mean time, every
time you wash a load of jeans, throw the Nomex in with them. Just don't put
it in with the wife or kids' stuff, they don't appreciate the Nomex smell!
They'll lighten up a little every cycle. If you have more than one, keep
the best one for winter time and beat the others to smithereens in the
washer and dryer. Homemade summer and winter weight Nomex flight suits.
Mark Davis
N44YK
---
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m Guest
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Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:45 pm Post subject: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
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Craig, let me reply to text... Which is not the "right way", but
probably good enough.
Quote: | First, let me tell you that I believe in open debate and that two
parties can agree to disagree. So no worries on future friendships!!
|
Hey, give me the chance, I can ruin ANY friendship!
Quote: | Here are the RPA guidelines from the website:
|
Quote: | Do I have to wear a flight suit to fly at RPA events?
|
Quote: | Flight suits are ONLY REQUIRED during Formation Training sorties
conducted at RPA events. However,we strongly urge you to wear a nomex
|
flight suit during all your flying in your warbird. You will find just
about everyone who attends RPA Fly-Ins is in a flight suit. It's an
important piece of safety equipment that if maintained, may save your
skin during an aircraft accident/fire. Besides, where else are you going
to put the formation or membership patch?
I would like to ask RPA to change these rules to where only the RPA
member that is acting as an INSTRUCTOR and is obviously PARTICIPATING at
the RPA event have to wear said Flight Suit. In other words, if you
come to an RPA event simply to obtain instruction, such as any sort of
FAST TRAINING, and are not PARTICIPATING as an RPA member in some kind
of "event" that said Flight Suit shall not be mandatory. I am not going
to discuss how important it is, or is not as a piece of safety
equipment. The subject of how important Flight Suits are, or are not,
and the matter of whether RPA should be acting as an enforcement agency
for Flight Safety has been debated long and loud before now. This
debate took months and months. It made many people angry. I really am
not going to repeat it. I also am not going to repeat the final result
of this debate, because I am SURE that it still bothers a lot of people,
and it would only be like throwing gas on a fire. The bottom line here
is like I asked you to before, PLEASE DO NOT GO INTO THE SAFETY ASPECT
OF THIS ISSUE. Suffice it to say that if I want to fly my airplane at
10 feet off the ground upside down, then that is my business and no one
else's as long as I obey all FAR's.
Quote: | Do I have to wear a parachute when flying at RPA events?
|
Quote: | Only if you are conducting formation training with a backseat
instructor (or occupant), in this case you must have a parachute for
|
both seats with current repack as directed by Federal Aviation
Regulations concerning aerobatics.
That is exactly what the FARS specify. I want to make clear that this
is a change. Before now, if you were receiving instruction of any type,
.. Say I was flying wingman with another aircraft, RPA rules were that
I MUST be wearing a parachute, regardless if I was by myself in a two
seat aircraft, or by myself in a ONE seat aircraft. So this then is new
official policy then correct? GREAT!
Quote: | Almost all RPA FormationTraining sorties will meet the definition of
aerobatic flight due to manuevers flown, so we are meeting the regs. If
|
you don't have a chute for your backseat for the RPA FAST fly-in, let
the ortganizer know, often we can share and cover folks needs.
Well that brings up an interesting question that I have never really
considered before. Let's say that:
1. I show up for FAST training at an RPA event in my YAK-50.
2. I don't fit in any other 2 seat aircraft.
What are you going to do?
Quote: | SO....you only need nomex at an RPA EVENT. If you are flying locally
doing training, or flying for fun nomex is optional and not required. I
|
think this supports your comment of "On the other hand, for events where
the RPA is showing the flag... As in events where RPA FAST card members
are flying and representing RPA itself, I personally have no problem
what-so-ever with ANY organization specifying a dress code."
Almost. I admit that there seems to be at least some concessions being
made here, but here is the deal. Many people might view a situation
where RPA members are teaching formation flying to be an RPA EVENT. See
where I am going here? This is what I am talking about....example to
follow:
You are an RPA member. You are an RPA qualified FAST pilot. The RPA
has been asked to perform some type of flying event. Mass formation
fly-over, whatever... You name it. For that flight just described...
Pilots involved in it, leading up to it, doing it, and landing after it,
and being involved with the public must wear a flight suit. This is an
RPA rule, you are an RPA member, you are involved in an RPA event. I
have ZERO issues with this... It's your party and you set those rules...
With you 100%.
Now, some of the RPA members say: "Hey, while we are all there at this
RPA event, we might as well sponsor a FAST CLINIC and give some of those
FNG's some good ole FORMATION TRAINING! I show up with no Flight Suit,
and you say to me: "Sorry Mark, I can't allow you to fly at all for FAST
TRAINING because after all, this is an RPA EVENT and you are not wearing
a FLIGHT SUIT. I have a real problem with this. So please tell me
"Not to worry Mark, we would never do that".
Quote: | As far as chutes are concerned, you are 100% correct that a single seat
aircraft is exempt AND so is a two-seat aircraft if only one person is
|
in the plane. I see nothing in the above RPA statement that conflicts
with this.
There used to be. I am over-joyed that there no longer IS! I am being
dead serious.
Quote: | As an aside, single layer nomex provided little in the way of true fire
protection. If you really want fire protection, you need to wear stuff
|
like race car drivers do or wear something like carbon-x undergarments.
I own five nomex suits (OK, I'm nuts but the last two I bought brand new
on eBay for $3 each) mostly because we wear them in Civil Air Patrol
flying (yeah, yeah, yeah - Cessna 172s and 182s). There are other
options in CAP, but those uniforms contain polyester and I don't like
wearing polyester stuff as it will melt to you in a fire. Wearing nomex
is hot but I prefer it over polyester!
Craig, I have worn Nomex Flight Suits off and on for 30 years. I have
been Flight Crew on more than a few military flights. I honestly know
all about the subject. If I did NOT know, I sure was educated by a lot
of very smart people the last time this came up. Bottom line is that to
fit me now, a Flight Suit costs over $300. A lot of people are going to
argue and debate that, but the bottom line is that once they know the
full story, they say: "OH, IT SUCKS TO BE YOU". Bottom line, I hardly
ever wear a chute, and I simply do not wear Flight Suits anymore ...
Except... And I can not discuss the except.
ANYWAY, every once in awhile it does suck to be me... And more than one
person on this list server will surely agree!
Take care,
Mark
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m Guest
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Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:49 pm Post subject: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
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Now let's bring up the subject of how good Marvel Mystery Oil really is for our engines! \
Mark.....
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m Guest
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Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:57 pm Post subject: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
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He is not taking it too far at all ... Not in my opinion anyway. One of
the biggest factors that impacts aerobatic pilots is heat. That is
KNOWN FACT. A C-182 is also not a YAK-50.
Craig, please name the source of the flight where the guy slid the
canopy open and then got a face full of fire. What make and model and
what year, and how many times did that happen?
Mark
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m Guest
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Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:26 pm Post subject: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
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Jorgen, just to be clear.
My "issue" is NOT about the worth of any and all safety equipment.
My issue about anyone FORCING me to wear it in my own aircraft when I do not want to.
It is as simple as that.
Mark
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ChangDriver
Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 266
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Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
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Mark:
Glad I could enlighten you on the "new" RPA rules for chutes.
As for RPA Event....I would think that official RPA events are those listed on the RPA website under events.
I can't make decisions for the RPA. I'm just one of the members who enjoys flying and the friendship of other pilots. Darrell would be the one to make organizational decisions.
As for the event of the canopy opening, I really don't remember....I read way too much aviation stuff (it is a sickness I am told!!).
Since I don't fly aerobatics in the CAP 182, I use a Camelback that I sling over the seat so I have water with me all the time.
By the way, Flightsuits.com has a part of the site where they sell suits they made as demos, etc at a discount. Often $99. FYI.
By the way, single seat aircraft are exempt from having an ELT as well. Does this mean the FAA doesn't care if a) you have a chute to get out when things go to sh_t and b) don't care if they have a way to find you when you do if you fly single seat aircraft???
Fly often, fly safe,
Craig
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HawkerPilot2015
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 503
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Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
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I have spent nearly 13 years wearing a flight suit in temps ranging from -60 F to over 120 F. The thing offers ZERO comfort in the extremes and in fact, makes those extremes worse. When it is cold outside, they are useless. In the heat of Iraq, they trap heat and zap energy quickly. As for protection, ask any life support tech about the true protective nature of the flightsuit. While your at it, ask them about the protective qualities of the -55/P helmet. Neither are inspiring....
Wear whats comfortable for YOU.....
I have flown my airplane three times with a flight suit, twice when I flew the airplane to my guard unit and it was just easier to wear than to pack it. The other time was when I visited a local museum in hopes of getting a flying gig in a B-25. (They wear bags so I thought it may help my chances.)
Thats all I have to say about that......
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m Guest
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Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:02 pm Post subject: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
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Quote: | Glad I could enlighten you on the "new" RPA rules for chutes.
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Thanks Craig, you did.
Quote: | As for RPA Event....I would think that official RPA events are those
listed on the RPA website under events.
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Then my request still stands.
Quote: | I can't make decisions for the RPA. I'm just one of the members who
enjoys flying and the friendship of other pilots. Darrell would be the
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one to make organizational decisions.
Maybe you can pass my request on to him?
Quote: | As for the event of the canopy opening, I really don't remember....I
read way too much aviation stuff (it is a sickness I am told!!).
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No problem. Brian Lloyd and I see pretty much eye to eye regarding this
aspect, so no sense in repeating what he already said.
Quote: | Since I don't fly aerobatics in the CAP 182, I use a Camelback that I
sling over the seat so I have water with me all the time.
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When I do fly Aerobatics, EVERYTHING comes out of the cockpit, including
what I have in my pocket, maps, etc., etc.
Quote: | By the way, Flightsuits.com has a part of the site where they sell
suits they made as demos, etc at a discount. Often $99. FYI.
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Yep, I just KNEW you would not be able to resist. Give them a call.
Ask them to bring up the list that they have on hand for my
measurements. They will not hesitate to do that. Now ask them if they
can come up with a Demo Suit, or a return item, or anything else in the
world that will keep the cost down below what I stated, then come back
to me here on the net or privately and let me know. Until then, I
repeat..... trust me, amazingly enough, I really do know what I am
talking about.
Quote: | By the way, single seat aircraft are exempt from having an ELT as well.
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Yep. I'm aware of that. They're not required in the first darn military
aircraft either!
Quote: | Does this mean the FAA doesn't care if a) you have a chute to get out
when things go to sh_t and b) don't care if they have a way to find you
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when you do if you fly single seat aircraft???
Yep. I guess that is pretty much what it means. They ARE concerned
enough about the pilot grabbing the one and only chute and leaving an
airplane full of passengers to where they passed the rule that they did.
A rule which the military disregards ALL the time by the way. They also
gave a little bit of thought to the difference between mandating safety
and infringing on personal freedoms. Otherwise, we would all be wearing
steel toed leather boots, Nomex Flight Suits, a Helmet, cotton
underwear, nomex gloves, and carrying an independent air supply every
time we went to board a 747. Actually sometimes I think that our Govt.
agencies would even do things like that if given enough of a chance!
There are lots of ways to look at the parachute issue and we could
debate each one of them, one at a time, for a very long time. But, it
happens that I am one of those people that think that if there is
anything in this world that is mine more than anyone else's, it is my
LIFE. Now some states disagree and have laws accordingly. For example,
if you try to commit suicide and fail, why ....they will run right up
and arrest you! If on the other hand, you succeed, well... They usually
will not press charges.
On that same note: If I decide not to wear a chute.... You know what?
I believe that is pretty much my business and is NOT the business of the
FAA or anyone else for that matter. You or anyone else can debate the
WORTH of that decision anytime you like, but the RIGHT TO MAKE IT is
something I reserve for myself.
As for that ELT that you mentioned? I don't have one in my aircraft. I
think they are pretty much a waste of money unless you get really
serious about the exact make and model that you purchase, and most
aircraft owners only purchase what the law forces them to. Instead I
carry a PLB, ... A personal locator beacon that has a built in GPS that
broadcasts my position and exact identity accurately on 406 Mhz. Yes, it
also has the warble on 121.5, but I trust the GPS location much better
than I do a beacon on 121.5, Civil Air Patrol not withstanding.
R/S,
Mark Bitterlich
P.s. Tim Gagnon, tell the world how many times you've been in, or heard
of, a KC-10 full of passengers, not one of which was wearing a Flight
Suit or a Parachute, when said same aircraft refueled one tactical
aircraft after another. Talk about formation flight? Flying formation
is one thing, tanking on something like a KC-135 with a hard hose in the
middle of the night... Now that's something else again. My point of
view is not limited to just MARK BITTERLICH. The military practices it
ALL the time, albeit for different reasons.
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jgriffint28(at)cox.net Guest
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Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:48 pm Post subject: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
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Brian
As a doctor who has worked a multitude of sporting events, I can tell you
that you are absolutely correct. I have pulled many people out of sporting,
especially biking, events after showing signs of heat exhaustion. To a
person, they don't realize that they are not performing normally and resist
being taken out of an event.
I have noticed a decrease in my mental acuity from flying in heat. It is a
lot more apparent in my T-6, which has more engine heat, than my CJ.
NO other org. makes a big deal about what you wear. ALL will make a big deal
about how you fly. They are concerned about safety, but their safety from
you is there first concern.
I can also tell you that I have not attended a lot of RPA fly-ins or clinics
in the past during warm months because of the flight suit issue. I can stay
in my home town of Tulsa and fly with my friends dressed any way that I
want.
Jim Griffin
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ChangDriver
Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 266
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Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:14 am Post subject: Re: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
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All:
To nomex or not to nomex, that was not the question!!
So...we have two camps - those that wear nomex and those that don't. GREAT.
When is Rome do as the Romans. So when at an RPA event (or for me flying for CAP), follow the guidelines. Otherwise, this is America - do what you want as long as it doesn't violate FARs.
Isn't it GREAT to fly communist country airplanes in a country where we have the freedom to do what we want (within reason).
Now....GO READ the NEW RPA FORMATION MANUAL.
I think we should move on to other topics......
Enjoy the freedom of flight this weekend!!
Craig
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co Guest
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Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:24 am Post subject: FAST, Formation Flight, Safety |
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Hey Tim contact me off list.
Doc
Oh, I wear a flight suit some of the time too. Mostly because of the
zippered pockets and FOD. Well so I can stick my cellphone in the left leg
pocket and the SarSat elt in my right leg pocket when I am flying. As for
the heat, that tan desert color is better than the dark green ones. The
sleeves make great sweat rags so that I don't have to keep one in my helmet
bag where I have to look down and dig around for it at the base of the bag
that is carabinered to the right side of the cockpit via a lightening hole
in the bulkhead.
The rest is personal preference, like leaving the top half of the suit off
to the waist with the sleeves tied around the waist. That way you stay a
little cooler. As for hydration, I carry a couple of liters of water stuck
down in the helmet bag front pocket. On the serious side, I drink about 1/2
of that 2 liter bottle while the engine is warming. If I do not get thirsty
in flight, then I finish it off taxing back in or right after I shut down.
That will help keep you hydrated during that flight in that 120 deg cockpit
under that bird cage sun room with the heated air from that oil cooler that
vents into the fuselage on that 50.
On second thought, that may be the reason why I have a 1 hour bladder! 2
liters of water for an hour of flight?!! But if you are peeing dark colored
urine before or after flying (ie, it is not fairly clear), you are getting
dehydrated. Dehydration not only affects mentation, it affects your G
tolerance too.
So there it is, the physiology lesson for the day. To flight suit or
not...your call. I don't care about the "neat place to hang all those
patches". I sanatize. Those patchs make it harder to keep the sleeves tied
around my waist. Liable to un-impress the ladies (or guys depending your
preference...don't ask don't tell thanks to Bill).
I just want my SarSat to make the jump with me in my right leg pocket if I
have to use that parachute that I sit on as a cushion sometime! I would like
to make it easier for Craig and the rest of the CAP find me a little
quicker! I could care less if they find the disposed of airframe.
Doc
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