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Brain buckets

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rvfltd(at)televar.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:55 pm Post subject: Brain buckets

Tim or anyone,

I have heard this same statement ("55 offers very little impact 

protection") many times, but have never actually seen any "official" 

testing results that might confirm claim.  Could anyone out there tell 

me where the impact rating of all the various helmets could be found?  

What is the best helmet for impact protection? 



Always Yakin,

Doug



Tim Gagnon wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Just remember the -55/P offers virtually no impact protection. They are not intended to. They are there for earphones and a place to put an oxygen mask. Not much more. 



I find the helmet restricts headroom in the -50 and I have been using a cloth helmet with DC's. It offers better attenuation and is a whole lot cheaper. Plus, like Doc, I got my helmet for free via the ANG.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=144224#144224

HawkerPilot2015

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503

Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: Brain buckets

Doug,



This comes from our life support folks. I will ask them if there is something to provide some evidence to the claim. BUT, from personal experience and wearing the damn thing for more hours than I would like to think, they are paper thin and only really have styrofoam for impact protection. NOW..I think the new issue helmets may be made of kevlar and offer better protection...but at what price? 



There is a helmet out there that offers great protection but I cannot remember the name of them. They are not cheap....but neither is your head![/i]

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:11 pm Post subject: Brain buckets

Most of the really serious Unlimited aerobatic guys and the Red Bull

pilots wear the one I think you are talking about Tim.  It is NOT a

military model.  It DOES have a visor and the shell is very much like

one would find on a motorcycle.  I will check out Hubie Tolson's and see

if I can get the name.  Knowing him, it would have to be the best of the

best, or else he would not put it on his noggin.  



Mark Bitterlich

  



--

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:47 pm Post subject: Brain buckets

I have a classic looking leather helmet made by Campbell in New  Zealand.  I've owned it about 5 years with no problems.  The  electronics are very good and external noise is taken care of by an   excellent fit over the ears.  Campbell makes them custom fit so you  can keep them on for hours at a time.  It is a Kevlar shell covered will  real leather.   I don't know what the liner is made of but its  quite comfortable for hours on end.  Split lens RAF type goggles top out  the WW2 effect.  They even fit over my glasses.

  

 The helmet has save me from considerable hurt.  Those that saw me at  AYS last January missed the step deplaning a CJ, can attest I hit the ground  with a great deal of force.  My parachute cushioned my body and my  helmet absorbed the force when my head hit the ground.  With out it I  believe I would have had a serious head injury.

  

 Anyway this helmet is not cheap, but you get what you pay for in this case  and I recommend it.

  

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

  

  

  

  In a message dated 11/6/2007 11:13:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil writes:

 [quote]-->    Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14    64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>



Most of the really serious    Unlimited aerobatic guys and the Red Bull

pilots wear the one I think you    are talking about Tim.  It is NOT a

military model.  It DOES have    a visor and the shell is very much like

one would find on a    motorcycle.  I will check out Hubie Tolson's and see

if I can get the    name.  Knowing him, it would have to be the best of the

best, or else    he would not put it on his noggin.  



Mark Bitterlich

     



--

fish(at)aviation-tech.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:58 pm Post subject: Brain buckets

Tim/Mark,



I beleive the helmet you are refering to is a GALLET HELMET.



As for crash protection, the Helo helmets normally provide

more protection in a crash then the fixed wing helmets. Try

an SPH-4B (Kevlar shell and duel visor) or the HGU-56/P. The

SPH-4B was an interim helmet until the HGU-56/P was ready to

be put into service.



If you are going to purchase an SPH-4B, be carefull, not to

buy an SPH-4A, with a dual visor (Interim modification). On

the SPH-4B they changed the retension system and addeed

crushable ear cups.



Fly Safe

John Fischer



[quote] In a message dated 11/6/2007 11:13:23 P.M. Eastern

 Standard Time,   mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil writes:

 

 

 Det Cherry Point,  MALS-14  64E"

 <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>

 

 Most of the really serious  Unlimited aerobatic guys and

 the Red Bull pilots wear the one I think you  are talking

 about Tim.  It is NOT a military model.  It DOES have  a

 visor and the shell is very much like one would find on a 

 motorcycle.  I will check out Hubie Tolson's and see if I

 can get the  name.  Knowing him, it would have to be the

 best of the best, or else  he would not put it on his

 noggin.  

 

 Mark Bitterlich

 

 

 --

rvfltd(at)televar.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:11 am Post subject: Brain buckets

Interesting read about helmets:

 http://www.navy.gov.au/publications/touchdown/may05/hardhats.html

 

 

 fish(at)aviation-tech.com (fish(at)aviation-tech.com) wrote:

 [quote]   [quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "fish(at)aviation-tech.com" (fish(at)aviation-tech.com) <fish(at)aviation-tech.com> (fish(at)aviation-tech.com)



Tim/Mark,



I beleive the helmet you are refering to is a GALLET HELMET.



As for crash protection, the Helo helmets normally provide

more protection in a crash then the fixed wing helmets. Try

an SPH-4B (Kevlar shell and duel visor) or the HGU-56/P. The

SPH-4B was an interim helmet until the HGU-56/P was ready to

be put into service.



If you are going to purchase an SPH-4B, be carefull, not to

buy an SPH-4A, with a dual visor (Interim modification). On

the SPH-4B they changed the retension system and addeed

crushable ear cups.



Fly Safe

John Fischer



       [quote]In a message dated 11/6/2007 11:13:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,   mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil) writes:  -->  Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,  MALS-14  64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)  Most of the really serious  Unlimited aerobatic guys and the Red Bull pilots wear the one I think you  are talking about Tim.  It is NOT a military model.  It DOES have  a visor and the shell is very much like one would find on a  motorcycle.  I will check out Hubie Tolson's and see if I can get the  name.  Knowing him, it would have to be the best of the best, or else  he would not put it on his noggin.    Mark Bitterlich   --

shinden33

Joined: 02 Nov 2007
Posts: 39

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:50 am Post subject: Brain buckets

Doug,



I was told by some AF types that the HGU-55 was designed to protect the

pilot from the after effects of a bird strike on a Viper canopy at ~500kts.

The canopy damage is only supposed to be a rather substantial dent.  Never

saw anything in the form of actual data.



Scott



--

fougapilot

Joined: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 89
Location: Flat on my back with minimum airspeed

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:56 am Post subject: Re: Brain buckets

When I was looking to buy a new helmet last year, I did a bunch of reading online and had made my mind n a Helicopter helmet because of the increased protection. But, after speaking with the folks at flightsuit, I opted for the standard HGU-55. There are many advantage to either helmets, but I felt that the -55 would be better for the type of flying I do.



One has to look at helicopter flying to understand the need for extra shell protection. When a helicopter goes down (along with the pilots might I add) there is a significant chance that it may not stay upright upon "landing", the extra shell protection was designed to protect the head against the very likely side impacts one's cranium would sustain in such an event. However, as anything comes with a price this increased in side protection also means an increases in weight (about 2lbs more if memory serves). I don't know about you, but when I do acro, I much prefer having a light weight helmet.



Flightsuits offers both the -33 and the -55 in Kevlar. The Kevlar helmet is a little more expensive ($100ish) but provides an increased protection (over the standard helmet) while retaining a lesser weight.



The -55 helmet was designed for fighter pilots and offers advantages for our type of flying. It has both the front and rear "spaces" cut very high. This offer an improved field of vision. The front is cut off high enough so I do not see the helmet. The rear cut is specifically designed to offer freedom of head movement. The helmet does not restrict my head movement!



My CJ has an advantage over a helicopter; it has fixed wings. The chances of having it rolled on me during a "controlled" off site landing are small simply because said wings should absorb any rolling tendency. If I find myself in a position where I no longer control the airplane (either because of a midair or structural failure) then I would like to hope I will think of using another safety item I carry on board with me and let the airplane do it's own thing while I watch from the comfort of my parachute. The -55 was designed for parachute landings.



At the end of the day, there is no right and no wrong. In my book, having the light weight and increased field of vision outweigh the "limited" increase in protection from a heavier helmet.



My 2 cents, to each his own.



Dan

drc(at)wscare.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:14 am Post subject: Brain buckets

Dan,

Excellent post.  I also picked the 33 in Kevlar for the low weight and  

range of movement.  Having known acro pilots that have hit the canopy  

in higher neg G maneuvers I think this helmet provides adequate  

protection from that likely scenario.  I have only known of 3 pilots  

to exit the plane with a chute.  They all did fine with the 55/33  

helmet.  I have not spoken to him personally but the photos I saw  

showed that Sergeis Sukhoi came to rest inverted after the wings came  

off.  He also uses either a 33 or a 55.  It would be interesting to  

get his perspective.  (He is also 1 of the 3 I know who has bailed.)



I also invested in the 7 point ratcheting Hooker - as protection from  

hitting the canopy.

I like it much better than the standard 5 point.  Very comfortable in  

the neg G.  The lap belt holds your butt in the seat better.  But I am  

a little concerned about getting off quickly compared to the standard  

5 point in the 52.



As an aside - Gentex makes the kevlar helmet for the Marines on the  

ground.  My partner in my practice is a former Marine and has been  

shot twice.  One time in the head with that helmet on.  Obviously he  

survived, the shooter was killed and Mike went on to graduate tops in  

his class in college and medical school and is a physician now.  I  

think the kevlar shell seems pretty reliable.  I do not know the  

difference in the thickness of the Marine vs the flight helmets but I  

would think they're both designed for being lightweight.



Herb

On Nov 9, 2007, at 5:56 AM, fougapilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 When I was looking to buy a new helmet last year, I did a bunch of  

 reading online and had made my mind n a Helicopter helmet because of  

 the increased protection. But, after speaking with the folks at  

 flightsuit, I opted for the standard HGU-55. There are many  

 advantage to either helmets, but I felt that the -55 would be better  

 for the type of flying I do.



 One has to look at helicopter flying to understand the need for  

 extra shell protection. When a helicopter goes down (along with the  

 pilots might I add) there is a significant chance that it may not  

 stay upright upon "landing", the extra shell protection was designed  

 to protect the head against the very likely side impacts one's  

 cranium would sustain in such an event. However, as anything comes  

 with a price this increased in side protection also means an  

 increases in weight (about 2lbs more if memory serves). I don't know  

 about you, but when I do acro, I much prefer having a light weight  

 helmet.



 Flightsuits offers both the -33 and the -55 in Kevlar. The Kevlar  

 helmet is a little more expensive ($100ish) but provides with an  

 increased protection (over the standard helmet) while retaining a  

 lesser weight.



 The -55 helmet was designed for fighter pilots and offers many  

 advantage for our type of flying. It has both the front and rear  

 "spaces" cut very high. This offer and improved field of vision. The  

 front is cut off high enough so I do not see the helmet. The rear  

 cut is specifically designed to offer freedom of head movement. The  

 helmet does not restrict my head movement!.



 My CJ has an advantage over a helicopter; it had fixed wings. The  

 chances of having it rolled on me during a "controlled" off site  

 landing are small simply because said wings should absorb any  

 rolling tendency. If I find myself in a position where I no longer  

 control the airplane (either because of a midair or structural  

 failure) then I would like to hope I will think of using another  

 safety item I carry on board with me and let the airplane do it's  

 own thing while I watch from the comfort of my parachute. The -55  

 was designed for parachute landings.



 At the end of the day, there is no right and no wrong. In my book,  

 having the light weight and increased field of vision outweigh the  

 "limited" increase in protection from a heavier helmet.



 My 2 cents, to each his own.



 Dan





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=144806#144806

drc(at)wscare.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:45 pm Post subject: Brain buckets

Check out ebay if you are looking - here is a nice new flightsuits helmethttp://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/New-Flight-Suits-Aerobatic-Kevlar-Flight-Helmet_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ26440QQihZ004QQitemZ140176152206QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW



item number  

Item number: 140176152206





Herb



[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "fougapilot" <fougapilot(at)hotmail.com (fougapilot(at)hotmail.com)>



When I was looking to buy a new helmet last year, I did a bunch of reading online and had made my mind n a Helicopter helmet because of the increased protection. But, after speaking with the folks at flightsuit, I opted for the standard HGU-55. There are many advantage to either helmets, but I felt that the -55 would be better for the type of flying I do.



One has to look at helicopter flying to understand the need for extra shell protection. When a helicopter goes down (along with the pilots might I add) there is a significant chance that it may not stay upright upon "landing", the extra shell protection was designed to protect the head against the very likely side impacts one's cranium would sustain in such an event. However, as anything comes with a price this increased in side protection also means an increases in weight (about 2lbs more if memory serves). I don't know about you, but when I do acro, I much prefer having a light weight helmet.



Flightsuits offers both the -33 and the -55 in Kevlar. The Kevlar helmet is a little more expensive ($100ish) but provides with an increased protection (over the standard helmet) while retaining a lesser weight.



The -55 helmet was designed for fighter pilots and offers many advantage for our type of flying. It has both the front and rear "spaces" cut very high. This offer and improved field of vision. The front is cut off high enough so I do not see the helmet. The rear cut is specifically designed to offer freedom of head movement. The helmet does not restrict my head movement!.



My CJ has an advantage over a helicopter; it had fixed wings. The chances of having it rolled on me during a "controlled" off site landing are small simply because said wings should absorb any rolling tendency. If I find myself in a position where I no longer control the airplane (either because of a midair or structural failure) then I would like to hope I will think of using another safety item I carry on board with me and let the airplane do it's own thing while I watch from the comfort of my parachute. The -55 was designed for parachute landings.



At the end of the day, there is no right and no wrong. In my book, having the light weight and increased field of vision outweigh the "limited" increase in protection from a heavier helmet.



My 2 cents, to each his own.



Dan





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=144806#144806



      -- Please Support Your Lists This           (And Get                              -Matt Dralle, List          - The Yak-List   -->             &n=====================



[b]

fish(at)aviation-tech.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:17 pm Post subject: Brain buckets

Herb,



I am sure your partner had on a balistic helmet (approx 1/2

thick kevlar) vs a flight helmet (approx 1/16-1/8 thick).



Fly Safe

John Fischer



----- Original Message Follows -----

From: Herb Coussons <drc(at)wscare.com>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Brain buckets

Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 08:57:19 -0600



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <drc(at)wscare.com>

 

 Dan,

 Excellent post.  I also picked the 33 in Kevlar for the

 low weight and   range of movement.  Having known acro

 pilots that have hit the canopy   in higher neg G

 maneuvers I think this helmet provides adequate  

 protection from that likely scenario.  I have only known

 of 3 pilots   to exit the plane with a chute.  They all

 did fine with the 55/33   helmet.  I have not spoken to

 him personally but the photos I saw   showed that Sergeis

 Sukhoi came to rest inverted after the wings came   off. 

 He also uses either a 33 or a 55.  It would be interesting

 to   get his perspective.  (He is also 1 of the 3 I know

 who has bailed.)

 

 I also invested in the 7 point ratcheting Hooker - as

 protection from   hitting the canopy.

 I like it much better than the standard 5 point.  Very

 comfortable in   the neg G.  The lap belt holds your butt

 in the seat better.  But I am   a little concerned about

 getting off quickly compared to the standard   5 point in

 the 52.

 

 As an aside - Gentex makes the kevlar helmet for the

 Marines on the   ground.  My partner in my practice is a

 former Marine and has been   shot twice.  One time in the

 head with that helmet on.  Obviously he   survived, the

 shooter was killed and Mike went on to graduate tops in  

 his class in college and medical school and is a physician

 now.  I   think the kevlar shell seems pretty reliable.  I

 do not know the   difference in the thickness of the

 Marine vs the flight helmets but I   would think they're

 both designed for being lightweight.

 

 Herb

 

 

 On Nov 9, 2007, at 5:56 AM, fougapilot wrote:

 

 > 

 <fougapilot(at)hotmail.com> >

 > When I was looking to buy a new helmet last year, I did

 > a bunch of   reading online and had made my mind n a

 > Helicopter helmet because of   the increased protection.

 > But, after speaking with the folks at   flightsuit, I

 > opted for the standard HGU-55. There are many  

 advantage to either helmets, but I felt that the -55 would

 > be better   for the type of flying I do.

 >

 > One has to look at helicopter flying to understand the

 > need for   extra shell protection. When a helicopter

 > goes down (along with the   pilots might I add) there is

 > a significant chance that it may not   stay upright upon

 > "landing", the extra shell protection was designed   to

 protect the head against the very likely side impacts

 > one's   cranium would sustain in such an event. However,

 > as anything comes   with a price this increased in side

 > protection also means an   increases in weight (about

 > 2lbs more if memory serves). I don't know   about you,

 > but when I do acro, I much prefer having a light weight 

  helmet. >

 > Flightsuits offers both the -33 and the -55 in Kevlar.

 > The Kevlar   helmet is a little more expensive ($100ish)

 > but provides with an   increased protection (over the

 > standard helmet) while retaining a   lesser weight.

 >

 > The -55 helmet was designed for fighter pilots and

 > offers many   advantage for our type of flying. It has

 > both the front and rear   "spaces" cut very high. This

 > offer and improved field of vision. The   front is cut

 > off high enough so I do not see the helmet. The rear  

 cut is specifically designed to offer freedom of head

 > movement. The   helmet does not restrict my head

 movement!. >

 > My CJ has an advantage over a helicopter; it had fixed

 > wings. The   chances of having it rolled on me during a

 > "controlled" off site   landing are small simply because

 > said wings should absorb any   rolling tendency. If I

 > find myself in a position where I no longer   control

 > the airplane (either because of a midair or structural  

 failure) then I would like to hope I will think of using

 > another   safety item I carry on board with me and let

 > the airplane do it's   own thing while I watch from the

 > comfort of my parachute. The -55   was designed for

 parachute landings. >

 > At the end of the day, there is no right and no wrong.

 > In my book,   having the light weight and increased

 > field of vision outweigh the   "limited" increase in

 protection from a heavier helmet. >

 > My 2 cents, to each his own.

 >

 > Dan

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > Read this topic online here:

 >

 >

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=144806#144806

 > >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 

 

 ====

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:22 am Post subject: Brain buckets

Somewhere I have that video of the frozen chicken cannon blasting the 16

canopy. 

Doc



--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:17 pm Post subject: Brain buckets

Herb,

The Grunt kevalar helmets are not light by any means compared the HGU-55,

33, or 35. The next generation helmets being fielded for the army, AF

special ops, marines, and seals (if they wear one at all) are much lighter

while providing better protection from cou counter cou injuries (sorry

forgot the spelling for cou). Basically for the non medical, the initial

shock of impact sends the brain in its water bath crashing against the skull

in the direction of the impact. It then rebounds against the opposite side

of the skull where it is bruised also. The brain gets bruised on both sides

or fore and aft depending on the initial direction of the impact. This is

your basic concussion.  It is like a bouncing ball inside your skull with

the repercussions. Imagine a supersonic round hitting the unmovable object

with the inside of that object being gelatinous. Even though the round does

not penetrate the casing (kevelar) the energy does. The rounds fired from

our handguns and rifles are all supersonic (high velocity). The .45 is not,

it is subsonic.

Remember the additional weight you carry on your head is additional weight

transmitted to your cervical spine multiplied by the force of the G and the

weight of the helmet. We try to lighten our helmets in the aviation arena to

decrease that weight while providing some protection from incidental impact

with the canopy under neg G, acoustic protection for our ears and  nap

padding to protect the neck during times of flexion/extension. 

The AF helmets we currently fly with are close to meeting that. Not perfect,

but nothing is perfect. If you are going to spend a fair amount of your

flying time at risk of being in a 9 G turning fight with all sorts of extra

weight do da s  hung on them (your cranium and ultimately your cervical

spine) to do your mission. You want the lightest you can get with some

protection from blast injury in ejection and the incidental whack on the

head from the abrupt reversal in a fight or to defeat a missile in flight.

The Army's helicopter helmets are much heavier than the AF's. They have

kevelar in theirs where we do not. They have a lot higher risk of bad guys

firing rifle rounds at their heads than the fast movers do. 

Just a few reasons for why the AF has the helmets it has. My old AF helmet

serves me well. With the Oregon Aero modes (which incidentally AF is using

on the line now), it is quit comfortable!

Doc Kemp



--

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