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Intellectual Property and Airplane Parts.

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psm(at)ATT.NET
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:52 pm Post subject: Intellectual Property and Airplane Parts.

Once again, I feel a need to share the knowledge I learned in a 

career as an engineer designing stuff for high volume 

manufacturing.  I hope I can put an end to the petty bickering which 

has been going on for, in my opinion, too long on the subject of 

intellectual property and what is right and what is not.



I don't know how this plays out in Canada or any other country, but 

in the USA we have a system of laws covering this whole subject.  We 

also have herds of lawyers who specialize in this subject.  It is an 

area of law which has been around as long as the industrial 

revolution and perhaps longer.  We don't need to reinvent this concept.



To my knowledge there are three, and only three, mechanisms used to 

protect intellectual property in the USA.  They are patents, 

trademarks, and copyrights.  Of these three, I believe only patents 

could be applied to airplane parts and the designs for those 

parts.  To earn a patent, the designer must show he created the 

design and that it has not been designed by anyone anywhere 

before.  It used to be necessary to prove that the design actually 

works, but that is no longer the case.  If the patent office, a 

government agency, grants a patent then the owner can enforce the 

patent - that is, he can stop others from making the stuff he 

invented.  This only works for a limited time - I think it is 14 

years, but there are exceptions to the time limits.



Since all the ideas that make up an airplane and its parts were 

invented long before any of us (including Chris Heintz) were born, 

there can be no patents on any of the stuff in these planes.  Perhaps 

there are a few small things, like the hingeless aileron, used in 

these designs that could be patented, but I am not aware of any such 

patents in existence.



It is conceivable that Zenith or Zenair could apply their trademark 

to the parts they sell.  That would prevent others from making 

identical parts since the trademark can be protected.  Unfortunately, 

that would also mean their trademark would appear on the crash 

remains of any plane built with their parts and readily available for 

the herds of lawyers going over such remains looking for somebody to sue.



I suppose the plans themselves could be copyrighted.  That would 

prevent making exact copies of the drawings.  It would not prevent 

anyone from making millions of parts from the drawings.  Of course, 

the copyright owner must take anyone violating the copyright to court 

to get any penalty imposed.  It doesn't really prevent copying, just 

makes recovery of losses available to the copyright owner.



All of the nice ideas proposed by Mark and others suggesting there is 

something wrong with anyone copying the designs presented by Chirs, 

Zenith, or Zenair are simply wrong.  While they are offered in good 

faith and probably seem to make sense, they have absolutely no 

foundation in law.



I realize it would be nice if the fine work done by the Zenith group 

of manufacturers and representatives could be protected from others 

who want to copy some of the work.  Unfortunately, there just isn't 

any legal way to do that.  The only protection available to any of 

these folks is to establish a good reputation and publicize that 

reputation to potential buyers.



It is a tough and cruel world out there.



Paul

XL fuselage

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purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:02 pm Post subject: Intellectual Property and Airplane Parts.

A pattent is good for 17 years or 21 years from the date of filling... 

Joe N101HD  601XL/RAM

---

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JohnDRead(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:52 pm Post subject: Intellectual Property and Airplane Parts.

There is another class of patent and that is patents of design. These  patents are granted for the "look" of a product so I believe that if one were to  copy any part of a Zenith design it is possible that there is infringement. Just  my opinion as a retired engineer with several of these types of patent.

  

 John  Read



Phone: 303-648-3261

Fax: 303-648-3262

Cell:  719-494-4567



See wh [quote][b]

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psm(at)ATT.NET
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:41 pm Post subject: Intellectual Property and Airplane Parts.

Hi John,



 Yes, I've heard of that kind of patent.  In order to work, Zenith would have to apply for the patent. If they have done so, they certainly haven't published that fact.  Even if they had it, the slightest change in the design (like the kind the Zenith engineers seem to do all the time) would invalidate the patent or require a new one.



 I'm afraid the whole mess we are having with this discussion comes from a misunderstanding many people have.  They learn in school that copying someone else's work is "Plagiarism" and something wrong and shameful.  While this may be true in the educational community, the world of product engineering is not the same.  In engineering, copying someone else's work is considered high praise and generally rewarded.  An engineer's job is not to create entirely new stuff.  It is to create the ideal solution for a given problem using all existing knowledge and previous design work to its best advantage.



 I am sorry there is so much hard feeling around this issue.  This isn't a new argument, and I suppose it won't ever go away.



 Paul



 



 

 At 08:51 PM 11/18/2007, you wrote:

 [quote]There is another class of patent and that is patents of design. These patents are granted for the "look" of a product so I believe that if one were to copy any part of a Zenith design it is possible that there is infringement. Just my opinion as a retired engineer with several of these types of patent.

  

 John Read

 [b]

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n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:45 am Post subject: Intellectual Property and Airplane Parts.

Well, that certainly leaves the Savannah in a VERY gray area in terms of knocking off the Zenith 701.... 

do not archive.

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



-- JohnDRead(at)aol.com wrote:

 There is another class of patent and that is patents of design. These patents are granted for the "look" of a product so I believe that if one were to copy any part of a Zenith design it is possible that there is infringement. Just my opinion as a retired engineer with several of these types of patent.

  

 John Read



Phone: 303-648-3261

Fax: 303-648-3262

Cell: 719-494-4567



   See wh  	  Quote: 	
		  



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   [quote][b]

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Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:44 am Post subject: Re: Intellectual Property and Airplane Parts.

In the case of Zenith it is the copyright law and contract law that is in play. If you have a set of plans from Zenith you signed a contract. If you have a set from somewhere else there is probably a copyright violation and/or contract violation somewhere in the mix.

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_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

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