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B747crew
Joined: 04 Nov 2007
Posts: 20
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 Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:40 pm Post subject: M14 P TBO |
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I'm wondering if there is an established TBO on the M14P or are there just general guidelines based on inspection/ compressions.
In addition I"d like to get feedback from the group as to individual experience in terms of service before overhaul did became necessary.
Thanks very much and thanks to the members of this forum for the exceptional information I find here on a regular basis.
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_________________
Jack Snodgrass
4305 Claridge Ct.
Apex, NC 27539
919-745-7434 |
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cliff(at)gesoco.com
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject: M14 P TBO |
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The Soviet System required overhaul of the entire aircraft every 500hrs
or 5 years.
Engines, being part of the aircraft were subject to the same rules.
After the forth overhaul the engine was scrapped.
On the data plate of each engine is a place to stamp the overhaul-
usually a roman numeral to identify how many overhauls the engine has
received.
Motorstar, one of the manufacturers of these engines, has a recommended
TBO of 1500hrs.
Like Lycoming and Continental, this is not a guarantee that the engine
will run to TBO, but *should* be overhauled at this time.
My experience has found that most engines suffer from old age or mishap
long before they're worn out.
Most notably the rubber and non-metallic parts degrade quite rapidly
after 7-8 years of age.
The ignition harnesses are very prone to breakdown.
I recommend replacing the harnesses with BIW 5mm steel core silicone
wiring.
We purchase it from Savage Magneto in California.
I know of two Yak-52TW with more than 650hrs that are running strong.
so...use it or lose it -grin-
Cheers,
Cliff
B747crew wrote:
| Quote: |
I'm wondering if there is an established TBO on the M14P or are there just general guidelines based on inspection/ compressions.
In addition I"d like to get feedback from the group as to individual experience in terms of service before overhaul did became necessary.
Thanks very much and thanks to the members of this forum for the exceptional information I find here on a regular basis.
--------
Jack Snodgrass
4305 Claridge Ct.
Apex, NC 27539
808-371-2739
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--
Clifford Coy
Director of Maintenance
Border Air Ltd
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
802-868-2822 TEL
802-868-4465 FAX
Skype: callto:Cliff.Coy <callto:cliff.coy>
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:23 pm Post subject: M14 P TBO |
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There is not a published TBO for the M-14 to my knowledge. It generally
flown for 500 hours with pretty much doing minimal maintenance adding oil
ect. It then underwent an IRAN at depot where what was out of tolerance was
replaced.
Doc
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dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:48 am Post subject: M14 P TBO |
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One must remember though, it did not matter what the condition of the engine
was at 500 hours. It was removed regardless and as Doc said, IRAN'd.
Typical military type requirement.
There are many stories/rumors that have been passed around over the years
that tell about an M14 type engine running a power generator or ground power
unit (or something similar which runs 24-7). Anyway, as the story goes, the
engine ran non-stop for 20,000 or was it 30,000 hours with only oil added to
the engine as required. Then it was removed and thrown away and another
engine installed. BTW, The story came from a very reliable source. Is it
possible? I suppose so. Pretty far fetched though. Do I think the M14
will run for 20,000 hours. No, I personally don't. Do I think the M14 will
run for 1500 or 2000 hours. Certainly. If you really want to see a major
difference in hours/longevity of the M14P, look at an original engine log
book from a Yak 18T versus one from a Yak 52. It all depends on how it was
intended to be used.
Dennis
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fish(at)aviation-tech.com
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:56 am Post subject: M14 P TBO |
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Dennis,
I beleive the stories. When I was in A&P school, my engine
instructor was contracted to do maintenance on ground
generators (constant run type). He found the same thing when
the engines were shut down after 10-12 years of constant
running. He checked them and they were put back on line, to
run for anouther ? long.
The reason for this is in the thermal expansion. All the
wear occures during the starting cycle, before they can get
to operating temp. Once an engine has oil flow, and temp has
expanded the engine to its fullest. Very little wear will
occur.
Also ground based engines are optimised to run at one
Temp/RPM for max efficiency. Engine tollerances are set to
use this range.
If we wanted to run our engines in only one regime (and
constant) they would also probably last a long time also.
Fly Safe
John Fischer
Yak-52, N213YA
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.com>
To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: M14 P TBO
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 07:47:53 -0600
[quote]
<dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.com>
One must remember though, it did not matter what the
condition of the engine was at 500 hours. It was removed
regardless and as Doc said, IRAN'd. Typical military type
requirement.
There are many stories/rumors that have been passed around
over the years that tell about an M14 type engine running
a power generator or ground power unit (or something
similar which runs 24-7). Anyway, as the story goes, the
engine ran non-stop for 20,000 or was it 30,000 hours with
only oil added to the engine as required. Then it was
removed and thrown away and another engine installed.
BTW, The story came from a very reliable source. Is it
possible? I suppose so. Pretty far fetched though. Do I
think the M14 will run for 20,000 hours. No, I
personally don't. Do I think the M14 will run for 1500
or 2000 hours. Certainly. If you really want to see a
major difference in hours/longevity of the M14P, look at
an original engine log book from a Yak 18T versus one
from a Yak 52. It all depends on how it was intended to
be used. Dennis
---
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:53 am Post subject: M14 P TBO |
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I got to echo Dennis.
I am going on my experience only. The M-14p in my CJ has 1350+ hours since new, all put on by me. I have a 10 micron oil filter and have used only 50 or 60 weight detergent oil. I've never used multi grade except when the other stuff was not available. At 430 hours I had to do a ring job because the factory had installed a scraper ring where the oil ring should have been. So the present rings have over 900 hours on them. At present the compressions are even and down to the low 70s. I can hear a little air out the breather. With the except of the ring failure at 430 hours, I've never seen any metal in the filter which I've changed out every 30 to 40 hours along with the oil.
I still get 34" mp and 2850 rpm (I set the prop governor for that and perhaps to conservative) for takeoffs here at sea level. For acro I need only 32" and 2300 rpm for what I do. At cruise I use 2000 rpm and 28" mp until I reach an altitude where the throttle is wide open. I use that power setting for climb also.
Like Craig, I used the smallest accelerator jet I had in the parts kit. No problems there.
Every engine is a product of how it is used. These engine are great. They can take a lot of abuse. Just like the big engines, if you "baby" them, they last a lot longer. On the 1830s we always ALWAY stay "over square". We never let the prop drive the engine. The thrust bearings and such were designed for the power to drive prop. For instance we make our approach in the B-24 using our cruise rpm, 2,000, and never let the mp drop below 21". If we fuck-up and are high, the B-24 does beautiful slip or we will pull the rpm back to 1800 and the mp to 20" If we have to go around throttles are advanced to 35" and props than move to 2300. During the war crews were taught to set the rpm at 2300 on the downwind leg and use any throttle setting down to idle for the approach. But engine were cheap and plentiful.
The guts of the M-14 are a little beefier compared to the big 1820 and 1830s but the principles are the same. I try to keep my power over square as much as possible.
The best thing to add to any engine particularly a radial, is a preoiler. The greatest wear happens during starting. I read somewhere it accounts for over 70%. We have used it on the B-24 for a number of years and have seen much better engine wear on the B-17 in the last couple of years since we starting using it on the 1820 which are beefier than 1830. I have a preoiler on my M-14 and I believe it, the 10 micron filter, and the way I operate it, is the reason for its longevity. So far. :>)
BTW#2 I watch my fuel flow drop almost 2 g/h by dropping my rpm way back.
Didn't old Chuck Lindberge show us how it was done with the troops in WW2?
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 11/30/2007 8:49:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.com writes:
[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.com>
One must remember though, it did not matter what the condition of the engine
was at 500 hours. It was removed regardless and as Doc said, IRAN'd.
Typical military type requirement.
There are many stories/rumors that have been passed around over the years
that tell about an M14 type engine running a power generator or ground power
unit (or something similar which runs 24-7). Anyway, as the story goes, the
engine ran non-stop for 20,000 or was it 30,000 hours with only oil added to
the engine as required. Then it was removed and thrown away and another
engine installed. BTW, The story came from a very reliable source. Is it
possible? I suppose so. Pretty far fetched though. Do I think the M14
will run for 20,000 hours. No, I personally don't. Do I think the M14 will
run for 1500 or 2000 hours. Certainly. If you really want to see a major
difference in hours/longevity of the M14P, look at an original engine log
book from a Yak 18T versus one from a Yak 52. It all depends on how it was
intended to be used.
Dennis
---
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brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:14 am Post subject: M14 P TBO |
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On Nov 30, 2007, at 5:47 AM, A. Dennis Savarese wrote:
| Quote: | Do I think the M14 will run for 20,000 hours. No, I personally
don't. Do I think the M14 will run for 1500 or 2000 hours.
Certainly. If you really want to see a major difference in hours/
longevity of the M14P, look at an original engine log book from a
Yak 18T versus one from a Yak 52. It all depends on how it was
intended to be used.
|
Dennis, I agree with you wholeheartedly. If you want a 2000 hour life
from an M14P, run it at reduced power. Pull the RPM (%) back and run
at lower power settings. You will get less wear from the engine.
Also, fly it straight-and-level at a constant power setting with all
the temps at their optimum points. Don't do any aerobatics.
If you work the engine hard and do lots of acro, expect the engine to
have a shorter life, maybe even 500 hours.
Remember, a military org wants high dispatch reliability and is
willing to pay for it, especially if they don't have to "pay" for it.
Pulling the engine at 500 hours prophylactically pretty much ensures
that one gets the engine before it has time to develop any problems
in the field. Fix everything and put it back. It will again run a
long time with minimal maintenance. We don't have that luxury here so
we need to keep closer tabs on the internal operations of the engine.
Of course, one could keep two engines around and swap them every 500
hours. Pull the NIS engine apart and check everything. Put it back
together with new bearings, rings, and gaskets. Something to think
about.
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brianl AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
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wlannon(at)persona.ca
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:49 pm Post subject: M14 P TBO |
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As mentioned in a previous post the Ivchenko engines (of which the M14 is a
derivative) have been used in the oil industry as pump engines running on
natural gas. In this instance it is quite possible they could run for 20,000
hrs.
In years past the RR Merlin was utilized for this function in Canada.
Running at nowhere near maximum power at constant RPM 24 Hrs per day on
absolutely clean burning fuel they ran for years. Maybe 100,000 hrs TBO.
Long since replaced by turbines which probably run forever.
Walt
---
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brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:22 pm Post subject: M14 P TBO |
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On Nov 30, 2007, at 12:21 PM, Walter Lannon wrote:
| Quote: |
As mentioned in a previous post the Ivchenko engines (of which the
M14 is a derivative) have been used in the oil industry as pump
engines running on natural gas. In this instance it is quite
possible they could run for 20,000 hrs.
In years past the RR Merlin was utilized for this function in
Canada. Running at nowhere near maximum power at constant RPM 24
Hrs per day on absolutely clean burning fuel they ran for years.
Maybe 100,000 hrs TBO.
|
I know that Allisons were used to do that but I have never heard of a
Merlin pressed into that service. The Merlin did not have the
strongest of valve trains and it also had that two-stage blower,
neither of which was conducive to longevity.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
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