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601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks.
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shilcom

Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 63

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:36 am Post subject: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks.

One of the things you will NOT be able to do is put  the "reverse polarity" ball on the end of the electrode before switching to  aluminum.   Some don't think that is necessary, but I do.  Bob U.  

 [quote]   ---

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:44 am Post subject: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks.

This is not soldering or brazing, it's welding. An acetyline torch reaches 6500 degrees, oxy-MAPP, 6200 degrees. Aluminum melts at 1250 degrees. It's welding. I asked them about this, it's welding, not brazing. Back when, all welding was gas welding. This is welding. I will do many test pieces to confirm this.



No, it's not the soda can people.



Arc welding makes a ton of splatter. Each of those splatters creates tiny pinholes in the metal.



Even so, if I'm not satisfied with these welds I will try TIG welding. From what I understand, for best results TIG welding you need A/C current for aluminum, so simply converting a MIG to a TIG ain't necessarily going to cut it. You'd be better off buying some components and actually building a TIG welder rather than spending $2,500 for something approaching a reasonable TIG welder.



Believe me, I understand the hazards of gasoline. I want these tanks WELDED, not brazed, not soldered, WELDED, AND I don't want a bazillion little pin holes in it either.



[quote="shilcom"]I do have the "stuff" in a few places, not generally on the  airplane.   One of the problems is "they" call it welding and it's  actually "soldering".  One of the differences is the metals being attached  don't reach melting temperatures like they do with welding.  If one  approaches the connection and the connection needs with the properties of  "soldering" in mind it CAN work well.  Clean joint with correct tools and  good "lapping type" fit up.  I think an improvement could also be made with  the "Proper" cleaning type flux, but I haven't seen one being  reccommended.  I used silver solder flux once and it seemed to work  good.  bob U. 

  	  Quote: 	
		     ---

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:47 am Post subject: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks.

One thing I'd be sure to do is put some rubber over that electrical connection. If the tank rattles around at all or you get a slight dent need that sender, that's 12 volts shorting out right on top of fuel.



[quote="ernieth(at)gmail.com"]Paul,



I like your reasoning on this. 



Thanks.



Do Not Archive.



On Nov 28, 2007 3:47 PM, Paul Mulwitz <psm> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		     Hi Steve,



 I have a fairly recent standard XL kit.  I installed the senders on the tank tops.  This seemed the easiest way to prevent most leaking (at least if the tank is not overfilled) and I just didn't worry about repairing a failed sender.  In truth, my flying always considered fuel gauges as nice ornaments, while fuel management was done with timing and planning.  Also my preflight inspection always includes a visual inspection of fuel levels in the tanks.  That means if the sender fails to properly indicate the correct level that is not much of a problem, but if it leaks all your fuel then it can be a huge problem.



 The senders I installed came in the kit and fit neatly under the skin.  I understand there are different ones that have a ground stud that interferes with the skin that need to be shortened.



 One note for all those folks who are considering welding their own aluminium tanks, I would suggest starting your TIG welding projects with something easier to accomplish.  Welding thin aluminum qualifies as the most difficult kind of welding there is and requires a great deal of skill and experience.



 Good luck,



 Paul

 XL fuselage

 

 At 04:40 PM 11/27/2007, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Speaking of fuel senders in your tanks,,,,

 I m about to cut into my 601 XL tanks to install the sending units.

 My plans show the hole in the end of the tank and my CD shows the hole on the top just in front of the spar.

 What did you guys do ??

 Seems like on top would be best and not leak....

 If its installed on the inboard end as per plans, can the unit be removed thru the access hole if needed ?

  

 SW

 

 

	


[b]

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:52 am Post subject: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks.

Larry McFarland welded his tanks.



I ordered the book.



It's all about learning. Maybe I'll learn I can't easily weld aluminum. Maybe I'll learn I can with some patience.



 	  psm(at)ATT.NET wrote: 	
		  Hi Andy,



I suggest you invest in an instructional book on welding along with 

your new equipment.  Nearly all welding suppliers have the one I 

bought several years ago - "Welder's Handbook" by Finch.  It will 

tell you which welding technique will work for which base metal and 

which technique will not.



Aluminum is extremely hard to weld for two simple reasons.  First, 

you can't see when it is getting hot because it melts before changing 

color - unlike steel which gets nice and red before melting.  Second, 

aluminum is an excellent conductor which means the heat you apply 

gets carried quickly away from the point you apply it.  That means 

you need a much higher power welding system for aluminum than for 

steel.  There is also the fact that aluminum oxidizes so quickly and 

the oxide is invisible but will ruin a weld.  I have heard it is 

possible to gas weld aluminum, but you will need a heavy duty 

oxy-acetylene rig.  I don't think a mapp gas setup will work.  Your 

chances of success will be a lot greater with TIG.



TIG welding should not spatter at all.  If it does, you are doing 

something very wrong.  For aluminum, you need an A/C power supply 

which is not found on the low end welders.  An entry level A/C TIG 

welding rig will cost around $1200 if you shop carefully.  The bigger 

professional class units with a high duty cycle and water cooling 

will be more like $5,000. Add to that another hundred or so for a 

bottle of shield gas and you are ready to start.  You also need 

appropriate filler metal rods - different ones for each type of base 

metal you want to weld.  Did I mention another hundred or two for a 

good self darkening helmet?  I strongly urge you to not skimp on that 

part since you will surely blind yourself with improper (or 

improperly used)  eye protection.



Of course, the price of the required equipment is more than the price 

of the tanks from ZAC.  Then you need to spend the required time to 

learn how to do the incredibly hard task of welding aluminum and then 

adjust it to very thin aluminum.



I will give you credit though.  You are facing a monumental task with 

little chance of success.



Good luck,



Paul

XL fuselage

At 01:38 PM 11/30/2007, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Apparently there's some way to weld it, and I suspect this is the 

best way. Everything I've heard about TIG welding is not great 

either, the splatter from that can burn a bunch of little pin holes 

all over the place.

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:37 am Post subject: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks.

The fuel sender doesn't see 12 volts it is reduced down by the gauge and  has a very low voltage I think if I remember it was less than 1 volt.

  In a message dated 12/3/2007 9:49:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  ashontz(at)nbme.org writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" <ashontz(at)nbme.org>

One    thing I'd be sure to do is put some rubber over that electrical connection. If    the tank rattles around at all or you get a slight dent need that sender,    that's 12 volts shorting out right on top of    fuel.

[quote="ernieth(at)gmail.com"]Paul,

I like your reasoning    on this. 

Thanks.

Do Not Archive.

On Nov 28, 2007 3:47    PM, Paul Mulwitz  wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		      Hi Steve,

  I have a fairly recent standard XL kit.  I installed the    senders on the tank tops.  This seemed the easiest way to prevent most    leaking (at least if the tank is not overfilled) and I just didn't worry about    repairing a failed sender.  In truth, my flying always considered fuel    gauges as nice ornaments, while fuel management was done with timing and    planning.  Also my preflight inspection always includes a visual    inspection of fuel levels in the tanks.  That means if the sender fails    to properly indicate the correct level that is not much of a problem, but if    it leaks all your fuel then it can be a huge problem.

     The senders I installed came in the kit and fit neatly under the skin.  I    understand there are different ones that have a ground stud that interferes    with the skin that need to be shortened.

  One note for    all those folks who are considering welding their own aluminium tanks, I would    suggest starting your TIG welding projects with something easier to    accomplish.  Welding thin aluminum qualifies as the most difficult kind    of welding there is and requires a great deal of skill and experience.

  Good luck,

  Paul

  XL    fuselage

  At 04:40 PM    11/27/2007, you wrote:

 > Speaking of fuel senders in    your tanks,,,,

 >  I m about to cut into my 601 XL tanks to    install the sending units.

 >  My plans show the hole in the    end of the tank and my CD shows the hole on the top just in front of the    spar.

 >  What did you guys do ??

 >  Seems like    on top would be best and not leak....

 >  If its installed on    the inboard end as per plans, can the unit be removed thru the access hole if    needed ?

 >   

 >  SW

 >     

 >  

 > 

 > 

 > 

 [b]

--------

Andy Shontz

CH601XL -    Corvair

www.mykitlog.com/ashontz

Read this topic online    here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150164#150164

hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.

  [quote][b]

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:43 am Post subject: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks.

I never tested one, sounds familiar though. I know it's supposed to be low volts, didn't know if they meant 12 volts low or way low volts like you said, 1 volt. If that's the case then it sounds like nothing to worry about. ! volt isn't going to spark for sure.

[quote="Afterfxllc(at)aol.com"]The fuel sender doesn't see 12 volts it is reduced down by the gauge and  has a very low voltage I think if I remember it was less than 1 volt.

  In a message dated 12/3/2007 9:49:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  ashontz(at)nbme.org writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" <ashontz>

One    thing I'd be sure to do is put some rubber over that electrical connection. If    the tank rattles around at all or you get a slight dent need that sender,    that's 12 volts shorting out right on top of    fuel.

[quote="ernieth(at)gmail.com"]Paul,

I like your reasoning    on this. 

Thanks.

Do Not Archive.

On Nov 28, 2007 3:47    PM, Paul Mulwitz  wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		      Hi Steve,

  I have a fairly recent standard XL kit.  I installed the    senders on the tank tops.  This seemed the easiest way to prevent most    leaking (at least if the tank is not overfilled) and I just didn't worry about    repairing a failed sender.  In truth, my flying always considered fuel    gauges as nice ornaments, while fuel management was done with timing and    planning.  Also my preflight inspection always includes a visual    inspection of fuel levels in the tanks.  That means if the sender fails    to properly indicate the correct level that is not much of a problem, but if    it leaks all your fuel then it can be a huge problem.

?    The senders I installed came in the kit and fit neatly under the skin.? I    understand there are different ones that have a ground stud that interferes    with the skin that need to be shortened.

  One note for    all those folks who are considering welding their own aluminium tanks, I would    suggest starting your TIG welding projects with something easier to    accomplish.  Welding thin aluminum qualifies as the most difficult kind    of welding there is and requires a great deal of skill and experience.

  Good luck,

  Paul

  XL    fuselage

  At 04:40 PM    11/27/2007, you wrote:

 > Speaking of fuel senders in    your tanks,,,,

 >  I m about to cut into my 601 XL tanks to    install the sending units.

 >  My plans show the hole in the    end of the tank and my CD shows the hole on the top just in front of the    spar.

 >  What did you guys do ??

 >  Seems like    on top would be best and not leak....

 >  If its installed on    the inboard end as per plans, can the unit be removed thru the access hole if    needed ?

 >   

 >  SW

 >?    

 >  

 > 

 > 

 > 

 [b]

--------

Andy Shontz

CH601XL -    Corvair

www.mykitlog.com/ashontz

Read this topic online    here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150164#150164

hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

psm(at)ATT.NET
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:08 am Post subject: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks.

A paper match generates around 2000 degrees F.  However, you wouldn't 

do any welding with a match.



I think the issue is not the temperature but the total energy 

produced by the torch.  When you use pure oxygen with any fuel the 

energy in the flame goes up a great deal.  I have never heard of a 

mapp gas torch that uses oxygen.  It is commonly used with acetylene 

and with propane fuels.



The reasons TIG is a better choice for this kind of welding have to 

do with the energy density produced and the shielding efficiency.  Of 

course, this doesn't come for free.  TIG is said to be the hardest 

form of welding to learn, but it can do incredibly difficult tasks 

that are either much harder or impossible to do with other welding forms.



There are lots of people who can weld an aluminum fuel tank, but I 

doubt many of them just started welding for the tank project.  I 

think that is like starting to drive cars by entering the Indianapolis 500.



Paul

do not archive



At 06:44 AM 12/3/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  This is not soldering or brazing, it's welding. An acetyline torch 

reaches 6500 degrees, oxy-MAPP, 6200 degrees. Aluminum melts at 1250 

degrees. It's welding. I asked them about this, it's welding, not 

brazing. Back when, all welding was gas welding. This is welding. I 

will do many test pieces to confirm this.

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:18 am Post subject: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks.

Just for the pure fun and learning experience, I'm going to try it.



It's not like I've never welded anything before. Even so, if I hadn't weld anything before, I'd still try it.



I work as a software engineer for a living. When I started back when, object oriented programming (OOP) was just coming into vogue. Transitioning was considered difficult. Now, OOP is all they teach and people still manage to learn it and can't imagine how anyone could have done any programming the old way.



 	  psm(at)ATT.NET wrote: 	
		  A paper match generates around 2000 degrees F.  However, you wouldn't 

do any welding with a match.



I think the issue is not the temperature but the total energy 

produced by the torch.  When you use pure oxygen with any fuel the 

energy in the flame goes up a great deal.  I have never heard of a 

mapp gas torch that uses oxygen.  It is commonly used with acetylene 

and with propane fuels.



The reasons TIG is a better choice for this kind of welding have to 

do with the energy density produced and the shielding efficiency.  Of 

course, this doesn't come for free.  TIG is said to be the hardest 

form of welding to learn, but it can do incredibly difficult tasks 

that are either much harder or impossible to do with other welding forms.



There are lots of people who can weld an aluminum fuel tank, but I 

doubt many of them just started welding for the tank project.  I 

think that is like starting to drive cars by entering the Indianapolis 500.



Paul

do not archive



At 06:44 AM 12/3/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  This is not soldering or brazing, it's welding. An acetyline torch 

reaches 6500 degrees, oxy-MAPP, 6200 degrees. Aluminum melts at 1250 

degrees. It's welding. I asked them about this, it's welding, not 

brazing. Back when, all welding was gas welding. This is welding. I 

will do many test pieces to confirm this.

dave.thompson(at)verizon.
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:05 pm Post subject: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks.

 	  Quote: 	
		  “The fuel sender doesn't see 12 volts it is reduced down by the gauge and has a very low voltage I think if I remember it was less than 1 volt.” A 1 volt power source shorted to ground will spark. Granted, not very much, but how much spark does it take to set off Gas fumes? I wouldn’t want to find out at 5000 ft. Insolate all “hot” connections, even “switched Grounds”. Dave Thompson        	
  

   

        [quote][b]

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:12 am Post subject: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks.

The fuel/air mixture over the liquid in a gasoline tank is too rich to burn. The fuel/air mixture over the liquid in a diesel fuel tank is too lean to burn. In either case, a spark will have no effect. In a tank used for jet fuel, it's a different story. The vapor pressure of kerosine falls somewhere in between, so there might be a real hazard there. 



On Dec 5, 2007, at 12:00 AM, Dave Thompson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  “The fuel sender doesn't see 12 volts it is reduced down by the gauge and has a very low voltage I think if I remember it was less than 1 volt.” A 1 volt power source shorted to ground will spark. Granted, not very much, but how much spark does it take to set off Gas fumes? I wouldn’t want to find out at 5000 ft. Insolate all “hot” connections, even “switched Grounds”. Dave Thompson 	




	




 -- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.



 



 [quote][b]

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:35 am Post subject: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks.

All good questions to be aware of. I wouldn't say any one person is an authority hence the useful thread to get everyone opinion.



Personally, I'd say any spark at any voltage is not good, but generally sparks need a lot of voltage, even static electricity from your body to the house lightswitch from walking across the carpet is something like 10,000 volts, but almost imperceptible amperage. But a 1 volt spark is possible.



Just to be safe, I'd insulate any 'hot' lead just in case for some reason (rattling tank, dent in wing skin) causes it to touch something grounded.



On another note, I recieved my Gas Welding Aluminum kit from Ron Fournier yesterday. Awesome video. He made some really nice looking welds right there in realtime on the video, one for a fuel tank even, and it didn't look all that difficult, it looks mostly like common sense and he did a good job explaining what he's doing. VERY nive looking actual welds, not brazed. He also showed how to not weld aluminum and how to just burn right through the material. The thing that I found interesting was that when he burned though the aluminum while demonstrating how to NOT weld was that the aluminum didn't flow away UNTIL he poked the filler rod in it, which would suggest to be that basically what he did was break the surface tension of the pool by feeding too much filler into the weld pool that had too much heat in it. While demonstrating proper welding it was done with just quick little dabs with the filler. While fusion welding he just moved flame slowly over the joint and he actually had the flame in contact with the aluminum a lot longer than I would have expected, so it seems that not disturbing the surface tension of the weld pool too much is another key feature of aluminum welding. I'm looking forward to trying it this weekend.

daveaustin2(at)primus.ca
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:03 am Post subject: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks.

Don't forget that if the wire from the gauge is disconnected/broken at the 

sender there is 12 V on that mother when no current is flowing.  It will 

spark.

Dave Austin  601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII

shilcom

Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 63

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:22 am Post subject: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks.

<<<The  fuel/air mixture over the liquid in a gasoline tank is too rich to  burn>>>

  

 NOT EVER SEE A CLOSED GAS CONTAINER  EXPLODE.   AND YES I AM "SHOUTING".   BOB  U.

 [quote]   ---

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:33 am Post subject: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks.

They never saw an Apollo capsule burn up 3 people before Jan 28, 1967 either, til they found faulty wiring afterwards and then someone realised aluminum burns at 15 psi in pure oxygen.



These are vented tanks, correct? What is that vent develops and crack and the vapor leaks into the enclosed wing area. I'd say taking precautions never hurt anyone. Treat it like what it is, explosive gasoline. Caution is never a bad thing.



That XL that went down in flames in CA, who knows, maybe that had a venting problem and a spark caused the tanks to explode.



Speaking of vented tanks, why are car fuel tanks not vented? Or should I say, why are airplane and boat tanks vented? They even test the cap at the inspection station to make sure it holds pressure.



[quote="shilcom"]<<<The>>>

  

 NOT EVER SEE A CLOSED GAS CONTAINER  EXPLODE.   AND YES I AM "SHOUTING".   BOB  U.

  	  Quote: 	
		     ---

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:06 am Post subject: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks.

All fuel tanks are vented because of pressure that builds in them. I'm sure  there are some Cessna owners out there that can remember the day they went  to the airport to fly on a hot day and it looked like someone put a balloon in  you wing because the vent got clogged an expanded tank can pop out rivets and  severely distort the metal.

  

 Cars also have a vent it is in the filler cap.

  

 Jeff

  

  In a message dated 12/5/2007 9:35:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  ashontz(at)nbme.org writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" <ashontz(at)nbme.org>



They    never saw an Apollo capsule burn up 3 people before Jan 28, 1967 either, til    they found faulty wiring afterwards and then someone realised aluminum burns    at 15 psi in pure oxygen.



These are vented tanks, correct? What is that    vent develops and crack and the vapor leaks into the enclosed wing area. I'd    say taking precautions never hurt anyone. Treat it like what it is, explosive    gasoline. Caution is never a bad thing.



That XL that went down in    flames in CA, who knows, maybe that had a venting problem and a spark caused    the tanks to explode.



Speaking of vented tanks, why are car fuel tanks    not vented? Or should I say, why are airplane and boat tanks vented? They even    test the cap at the inspection station to make sure it holds    pressure.



[quote="shilcom"]

  

NOT EVER SEE A CLOSED    GAS CONTAINER  EXPLODE.   AND YES I AM "SHOUTING".      BOB  U.



 	  Quote: 	
		      ---


	




--------

Andy    Shontz

CH601XL -    Corvair

www.mykitlog.com/ashontz





Read this topic online    here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150559#150559

	




hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.

  [quote][b]

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:13 am Post subject: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks.

They test it to make sure the vent is working properly.

  

  In a message dated 12/5/2007 12:09:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  Afterfxllc(at)aol.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  They    even test the cap at the inspection station to make sure it holds    pressure.

	




hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:23 am Post subject: Re: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks.

Cars have vents too? So what is that gas cap test then? I thought maybe there was a checkvalve in it to only allow air in as the fule level goes down. Every time I take my gas cap off of any of my cars they go ""Scheeewwwww" as the pressure is released.



I was under the assumption that cars didn't have vents, at least cars that have feed and return to the tank fuel lines. I know my Nissan pickup has a return line to the tank.



I'm not doubting you, just curious. Is it possible some are vented and some aren't. As far as ballooning, I know if I leave my mower fuel tank out in the sun it will balloon a bit. I guess that would not only possibly disrupt the wing skins (especially if it's a wet wing) but also be bad for the tank welds if it's a welded tank.



[quote="Afterfxllc(at)aol.com"]All fuel tanks are vented because of pressure that builds in them. I'm sure  there are some Cessna owners out there that can remember the day they went  to the airport to fly on a hot day and it looked like someone put a balloon in  you wing because the vent got clogged an expanded tank can pop out rivets and  severely distort the metal.

  

 Cars also have a vent it is in the filler cap.

  

 Jeff

  

  In a message dated 12/5/2007 9:35:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  ashontz(at)nbme.org writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" <ashontz>



They    never saw an Apollo capsule burn up 3 people before Jan 28, 1967 either, til    they found faulty wiring afterwards and then someone realised aluminum burns    at 15 psi in pure oxygen.



These are vented tanks, correct? What is that    vent develops and crack and the vapor leaks into the enclosed wing area. I'd    say taking precautions never hurt anyone. Treat it like what it is, explosive    gasoline. Caution is never a bad thing.



That XL that went down in    flames in CA, who knows, maybe that had a venting problem and a spark caused    the tanks to explode.



Speaking of vented tanks, why are car fuel tanks    not vented? Or should I say, why are airplane and boat tanks vented? They even    test the cap at the inspection station to make sure it holds    pressure.



[quote="shilcom"]

  

NOT EVER SEE A CLOSED    GAS CONTAINER  EXPLODE.   AND YES I AM "SHOUTING". ?    BOB  U.



 	  Quote: 	
		      ---



	




--------

Andy    Shontz

CH601XL -    Corvair

www.mykitlog.com/ashontz





Read this topic online    here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150559#150559

	




hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:15 pm Post subject: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks.

An empty gas can (with no liquid left inside) may contain an explosive mixture. A gas can that has had a large portion of the liquid recently poured out of it and fresh air vented in to replace it may contain an explosive mixture for a while but soon, the vapor coming off the liquid will enrich the mixture well beyond the upper explosive limit and create a non-flammable mixture.

I was referring to a vehicle gasoline tank. There are damn few situations where a flammable mixture can form inside a gasoline tank. You would have to somehow get enough air into the tank quickly enough to purge most of the vapor or drain all the liquid and let it set until enough air has diffused into the tank to create a flammable mixture. Fires involving a vehicle's gas tank generally start from an ignition of vapors leaking outside of the tank. Gas tanks just don't explode like they show in the movies.



I mistakenly thought the post I was responding to was referring to a spark inside the tank. A spark in the space between the tank and the wing skin is a different story. I can see a situation where a flammable mixture can form in there. Even so, it takes a pretty hot spark to ignite gasoline, I don't think you will get that from shorting out the wire from the fuel gauge. The voltage is low and the current will be extremely limited by the resistance of the gauge. There's a reason why you need an ignition coil generating several thousand volts to ignite the fuel charge in the cylinders. In any case, I made damn sure that there was no possibility of my senders shorting out. I stuffed enough cork padding around that area to prevent any contact with the wing skin and then covered the sender terminals with insulation.



On Dec 5, 2007, at 8:21 AM, Bob Unternaehrer wrote:

[quote]<<<The fuel/air mixture over the liquid in a gasoline tank is too rich to burn>>>

 

NOT EVER SEE A CLOSED GAS CONTAINER EXPLODE.   AND YES I AM "SHOUTING".   BOB U.

[quote]---

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:34 pm Post subject: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks.

In the apollo I disaster, they were using pure oxygen at 20 psi, five  

psi above ambient pressure to simulate the pressure differential the  

capsule would see in space.  Anything that can burn will burn really,  

really well with that much oxygen present. Oxygen at 20 psi is just  

f**king dangerous.



Car fuel tanks are not vented because the EPA says they can't be  

vented. Gas fumes used to be a big contributer to smog. Now the EPA  

requires that gasoline vapor emissions be tightly controlled. Boats  

and airplane gas tanks are vented because there aren't millions and  

millions of them running around on in the big cities and the EPA  

hasn't bothered to go after them, yet. There has been some talk about  

requiring stricter emission controls on lawn mowers though.



According to the reports I've read, the Zodiac that went down in  

California may have had a fuel leak in the engine compartment leading  

to an explosion.



On Dec 5, 2007, at 9:33 AM, ashontz wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 They never saw an Apollo capsule burn up 3 people before Jan 28,  

 1967 either, til they found faulty wiring afterwards and then  

 someone realised aluminum burns at 15 psi in pure oxygen.



 These are vented tanks, correct? What is that vent develops and  

 crack and the vapor leaks into the enclosed wing area. I'd say  

 taking precautions never hurt anyone. Treat it like what it is,  

 explosive gasoline. Caution is never a bad thing.



 That XL that went down in flames in CA, who knows, maybe that had a  

 venting problem and a spark caused the tanks to explode.



 Speaking of vented tanks, why are car fuel tanks not vented? Or  

 should I say, why are airplane and boat tanks vented? They even test  

 the cap at the inspection station to make sure it holds pressure.


	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:36 pm Post subject: 601 XL 15 gal. fuel tanks.

Cars used to have vented fuel tanks, now they have elaborate vapor  

recovery systems involving charcoal canisters, check valves and many  

feet of tubing. They probably still have relief valves in case the  

pressure in the tank gets too high.



On Dec 5, 2007, at 12:23 PM, ashontz wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Cars have vents too? So what is that gas cap test then? I thought  

 maybe there was a checkvalve in it to only allow air in as the fule  

 level goes down. Every time I take my gas cap off of any of my cars  

 they go ""Scheeewwwww" as the pressure is released.




	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

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