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Trying to keep the belly clean - Air/Oil Separator

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Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:59 am Post subject: Trying to keep the belly clean - Air/Oil Separator

      For others that have been flying your RV-10 or other similar aircraft, have you had any luck/experience with Air/Oil Separators?  

   

            I found on my RV-10 that if I run the oil between 8.5 and 9 quarts, that I would only add maybe 1 quart in 50 hours of operation.  I also found that if I run the engine rpm at 2450 in cruise, that it will blow more oil than if I run at 2200 rpm.  I usually use only 1 quart every 50 hours, but on my trip to Santa Teresa for LOE 07, I used 1 quart in 10 – 12 hours.  During this trip, I ran the entire way at 2450 rpm.  There is no doubt that it is all coming out the breather.  

   

            Has anyone installed an Air/Oil Separator on there RV-10 that has some experience on if it works and returns the oil to the sump instead of all over the belly?  I would like to install one if it is going to work.  Right now oil on the belly is no big deal, but once I get some paint on it, I would like to keep it clean.  

   

     

Thank You

 Ray Doerr

 40250 (N519RV – 341 Hrs)   

  [quote] [b]

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:31 am Post subject: Trying to keep the belly clean - Air/Oil Separator

Ray,



 From everything I've read, there is a problem with not using

enough oil in these engines, so 1 qt in 50 is too low,

according to some, and 1 qt in 10-15 is more like what

you'd hope for.  So I'm not sure I'd be too concerned.

Unfounded or not, my concern about the separators is that

all of the acids and things that you're not wanting in

the oil will tend to be dumped back into the engine.

I know there are 2 camps, and some say otherwise, and

I won't argue that, but I guess I just chose to believe

that the stuff coming out the breather (moisture

and caustic acids) is stuff I'd rather just leave

exit the breather.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Doerr, Ray R [NTK] wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		               For others that have been flying your RV-10 or other similar 

 aircraft, have you had any luck/experience with Air/Oil Separators?

 

  

 

             I found on my RV-10 that if I run the oil between 8.5 and 9 

 quarts, that I would only add maybe 1 quart in 50 hours of operation.  I 

 also found that if I run the engine rpm at 2450 in cruise, that it will 

 blow more oil than if I run at 2200 rpm.  I usually use only 1 quart 

 every 50 hours, but on my trip to Santa Teresa for LOE 07, I used 1 

 quart in 10 – 12 hours.  During this trip, I ran the entire way at 2450 

 rpm.  There is no doubt that it is all coming out the breather.

 

  

 

             Has anyone installed an Air/Oil Separator on there RV-10 

 that has some experience on if it works and returns the oil to the sump 

 instead of all over the belly?  I would like to install one if it is 

 going to work.  Right now oil on the belly is no big deal, but once I 

 get some paint on it, I would like to keep it clean.

 

  

 

  

 

 Thank You

 *Ray Doerr*

 40250 (N519RV – 341 Hrs)

 

 * *

 

 *

 

 

 *

Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:43 am Post subject: Trying to keep the belly clean - Air/Oil Separator

Hi Ray,  

   

I asked Mike Busch of “The Savvy Aviator” his opinions of air-oil separators because I was interested in installing one on my RV-10.  He was not very encouraging.  When I asked why he didn’t like them he said:    

   

Two reasons:  

   

1. The air/oil separator interferes with the engine's ability to purge itself of water, because it returns liquids to the crankcase instead of allowing them to pass out the breather.  

   

2. If the engine starts blowing excess oil out the breather (usually due to excessive blow-by or some other condition that pressurizes the crankcase), I want to know about it so I can troubleshoot the engine and find the cause.  If an air-oil separator conceals the excess oil discharge, it isn't doing me any favors.  

   

That's my view.  Hope this helps...Mike  

   

My RV-4 routes the crankcase breather line down to just above the exhaust pipes and any oil that blows out hits the pipes and is vaporized instantly.  It does a pretty good job of keeping the belly clean.  

   

Jack Phillips  

#40610  

   

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R [NTK]

 Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 10:12 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Trying to keep the belly clean - Air/Oil Separator  

  

   

            For others that have been flying your RV-10 or other similar aircraft, have you had any luck/experience with Air/Oil Separators?  

   

            I found on my RV-10 that if I run the oil between 8.5 and 9 quarts, that I would only add maybe 1 quart in 50 hours of operation.  I also found that if I run the engine rpm at 2450 in cruise, that it will blow more oil than if I run at 2200 rpm.  I usually use only 1 quart every 50 hours, but on my trip to Santa Teresa for LOE 07, I used 1 quart in 10 – 12 hours.  During this trip, I ran the entire way at 2450 rpm.  There is no doubt that it is all coming out the breather.  

   

            Has anyone installed an Air/Oil Separator on there RV-10 that has some experience on if it works and returns the oil to the sump instead of all over the belly?  I would like to install one if it is going to work.  Right now oil on the belly is no big deal, but once I get some paint on it, I would like to keep it clean.  

   

     

Thank You

 Ray Doerr

 40250 (N519RV – 341 Hrs)   

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robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:38 am Post subject: Trying to keep the belly clean - Air/Oil Separator

Again a topic for which I have minimal knowledge but will speak up

anyway.

On mu 6A the builder installed an Air/Oil Separator in a slightly less

usual configuration that solves Tim's concerns. The 6A has the ACS

Homebuilders Oil Separator ($42.60) with three connections the Inlet

(self explanatory) the Return and the Outlet. The outlet is flex tube

plumbed to a S/S tube mounted very near the exhaust (typical

configuration for many experimental). The Return line however is not

returned to the sump but rather plumbed to a tube with a plug in the

end. Basically a self contained reservoir. At the end of most flights I

stick my hand thru the oil access door, pull the tube off and drain the

oil into an old oil container. The key is doing this before the engine

cools down and the tube is much harder to get off and even harder to put

back on when cool. The tube used on my plane is pretty narrow and only

holds about 90 minutes of "blow by" oil. When I drain it I would guess

it's less than 2 tablespoons worth. This amount varies mostly with the

amount of oil in the sump. This summer I may trim the tip of the tube

and replace it with a "bulb" to hold more oil. I have heard of builders

mounting collection cans on the firewall to hold enough "blow by" to

take them thru oil changes. In my case that would be 25 hours = 50

Tablespoons of oil. 

I am not making any claims as to if this is a good idea or not but it

does prevent the moisture & acids from reentering the engine. I can't

see where it could be bad.

As far as oil on the belly my 6A does stay pretty clean but I cruise at

21.5/2350.

Again on my smaller O-360 I use about 1 quart every 20 hours including

the oil I dump after each flight.



Robin

Do Not Archive    



--

deej(at)deej.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:00 am Post subject: Trying to keep the belly clean - Air/Oil Separator

Tim Olson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Unfounded or not, my concern about the separators is that

 all of the acids and things that you're not wanting in

 the oil will tend to be dumped back into the engine.


	


    On my Glasair (Lyc O320) instead of letting it go out the belly or

dumping it back into the engine, the blow-by was captured in a container

that was emptied at each oil change.  The breather hose went to the top

of the screw-on cap of the container, and there were vent holes cut

around it in the cap for the air to escape.  I don't have a great

picture of it, but you can see it here in the bottom right up against

the firewall (the small white container).  Simple concept, but it did a

great job of keeping things cleaner.



http://econ.duke.edu/~deej/glasair/engine2.jpg



    This picture was taken prior to the restoration and clean-up, so

things look pretty dirty, but it is the only pic I can find at the moment.



-Dj



-- 

Dj Merrill - N1JOV

Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ

http://deej.net/sportsman/



"Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an 

airplane."  --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005

billderou(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:29 am Post subject: Trying to keep the belly clean - Air/Oil Separator

I purchased a nice, expensive oil/air filter for my Archer and the belly oil only reduced slighty. So slight that I was wondering if I just wanted to see a reduction to justify the purchase. So ...  I am currently in the negative regarding their purchase.

   

  My RV-10 burns 1 qt every 13-15 hours. The oil level is kept at 11 quarts and I am always cruising at 2300 or less. I have not noticed the widely stated fact that oil will burn faster if it is kept high. I am not a neat freak nor a slackard and first cleaned the belly at 125 hours. 

   

  It is my belief that the best approach to a clean belly is to install the breather exit directly onto the exhaust pipe at the intersection of the firewall before the pipe dips down into the airflow. My breather exit is 3/8" above the exhaust pipe. It has the additional feature of heating the breather to eliminate ice and the negative of increasing the fire hazard.  

   

  Of course, there will be a discussion regarding adding oil onto a hot tube as a hazard but with the little oil and massive airflow I have not seen any evidence of a problem. Others may disagree.

   

  Bill DeRouchey

  N939SB, flying

  



Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson 



Ray,



From everything I've read, there is a problem with not using

enough oil in these engines, so 1 qt in 50 is too low,

according to some, and 1 qt in 10-15 is more like what

you'd hope for. So I'm not sure I'd be too concerned.

Unfounded or not, my concern about the separators is that

all of the acids and things that you're not wanting in

the oil will tend to be dumped back into the engine.

I know  there are 2 camps, and some say otherwise, and

I won't argue that, but I guess I just chose to believe

that the stuff coming out the breather (moisture

and caustic acids) is stuff I'd rather just leave

exit the breather.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Doerr, Ray R [NTK] wrote:

[quote] For others that have been flying your RV-10 or other similar 

 aircraft, have you had any luck/experience with Air/Oil Separators?

 

 

 

 I found on my RV-10 that if I run the oil between 8.5 and 9 

 quarts, that I would only add maybe 1 quart in 50 hours of operation. I 

 also found that if I run the engine rpm at 2450 in cruise, that it will 

 blow more oil than if I run at 2200 rpm. I usually use only 1 quart 

 every 50 hours, but on my trip to Santa Teresa for LOE 07, I used 1 

 quart in 10 – 12 hours. During this trip, I ran the entire way at 2450 

 rpm. There [quote][b]

Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:48 pm Post subject: Trying to keep the belly clean - Air/Oil Separator

As I said before, my RV-4 uses this same technique (discharging the breather just above the exhaust pipes near the firewall.  Here’s a picture showing its belly – not scrupulously clean, but considering it hasn’t been painted in 20 years, it looks pretty good:  

[img]cid:image002.jpg(at)01C83C0D.2B6A3040[/img]    

Jack Phillips  

#40610   

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill DeRouchey

 Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 2:28 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Trying to keep the belly clean - Air/Oil Separator  

I purchased a nice, expensive oil/air filter for my Archer and the belly oil only reduced slighty. So slight that I was wondering if I just wanted to see a reduction to justify the purchase. So ...  I am currently in the negative regarding their purchase.  

My RV-10 burns 1 qt every 13-15 hours. The oil level is kept at 11 quarts and I am always cruising at 2300 or less. I have not noticed the widely stated fact that oil will burn faster if it is kept high. I am not a neat freak nor a slackard and first cleaned the belly at 125 hours.   

It is my belief that the best approach to a clean belly is to install the breather exit directly onto the exhaust pipe at the intersection of the firewall before the pipe dips down into the airflow. My breather exit is 3/8" above the exhaust pipe. It has the additional feature of heating the breather to eliminate ice and the negative of increasing the fire hazard.   

Of course, there will be a discussion regarding adding oil onto a hot tube as a hazard but with the little oil and massive airflow I have not seen any evidence of a problem. Others may disagree.  

Bill DeRouchey  

N939SB, flying  

 Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> wrote:  

   	  Quote: 	

--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson 

 Ray,

 >From everything I've read, there is a problem with not using

 enough oil in these engines, so 1 qt in 50 is too low,

 according to some, and 1 qt in 10-15 is more like what

 you'd hope for. So I'm not sure I'd be too concerned.

 Unfounded or not, my concern about the separators is that

 all of the acids and things that you're not wanting in

 the oil will tend to be dumped back into the engine.

 I know there are 2 camps, and some say otherwise, and

 I won't argue that, but I guess I just chose to believe

 that the stuff coming out the breather (moisture

 and caustic acids) is stuff I'd rather just leave

 exit the breather.

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

 do not archive

 Doerr, Ray R [NTK] wrote:

 > For others that have been flying your RV-10 or other similar 

 > aircraft, have you had any luck/experience with Air/Oil Separators?

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > I found on my RV-10 that if I run the oil between 8.5 and 9 

 > quarts, that I would only add maybe 1 quart in 50 hours of operation. I 

 > also found that if I run the engine rpm at 2450 in cruise, that it will 

 > blow more oil than if I run at 2200 rpm. I usually use only 1 quart 

 > every 50 hours, but on my trip to Santa Teresa for LOE 07, I used 1 

 > quart in 10 – 12 hours. During this trip, I ran the entire way at 2450 

 > rpm. There    	  Quote: 	
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ScooterF15

Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 136

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:35 pm Post subject: Trying to keep the belly clean - Air/Oil Separator

I used the Slime Fighter air/oil separator initially. The belly of my RV-10  was a oily mess when I cleaned it at about 70 hours, despite the fact that the  oil vent drips directly on the exhaust. I've since removed the separator and now  have the breather set up per Van's firewall forward plans.  The belly stays much cleaner now.

  

 -Jim

 N312JE

  

 Jim "Scooter"  McGrew

http://www.mit.edu/~jsmcgrew   

  In a message dated 12/11/2007 11:01:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     

               For others that have been flying your RV-10 or other similar aircraft, have    you had any luck/experience with Air/Oil    Separators?   

    

               I found on my RV-10 that if I run the oil between 8.5 and 9 quarts, that I    would only add maybe 1 quart in 50 hours of operation.  I also found that    if I run the engine rpm at 2450 in cruise, that it will blow more oil than if    I run at 2200 rpm.  I usually use only 1 quart every 50 hours, but on my    trip to Santa Teresa for LOE 07, I used 1 quart in 10 â€“ 12 hours.  During    this trip, I ran the entire way at 2450 rpm.  There is no doubt that it    is all coming out the breather.   

    

               Has anyone installed an Air/Oil Separator on there RV-10 that has some    experience on if it works and returns the oil to the sump instead of all over    the belly?  I would like to install one if it is going to work.     Right now oil on the belly is no big deal, but once I get some paint on it, I    would like to keep it clean.   

    

       

Thank    You

Ray    Doerr

40250 (N519RV â€“ 341    Hrs)    

	






See AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for winter.

  [quote][b]

tintopranch

Joined: 29 Jun 2007
Posts: 12

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: Trying to keep the belly clean - Air/Oil Separator

I have a new Mattituck 540 and had the same issue.  I installed Van's air/oil seperator and have been very happy with the results.  I have about 45hrs on the seperator and 95 on the engine so far.  I had a wolf seperator on my bonanza for years with good results.  I have noticed that the oil does seem to be more dirty with the seperator than without.  But since I can run more oil in the engine and I change the oil every 50hrs I do not see a problem with it.

_________________
MARK SUTHERLAND
RV-10 40292
Flying since June 07

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:26 am Post subject: Trying to keep the belly clean - Air/Oil Separator

Ray, drop the oil level in the crankcase down to 6 qts.  Your oil bill will decrease significantly, and there are no problems with the engine running it at that level.

 Linn

 do not archive

 

 Doerr, Ray R [NTK] wrote:

 [quote]                   

            For others that have been flying your RV-10 or other similar aircraft, have you had any luck/experience with Air/Oil Separators?   

    

            I found on my RV-10 that if I run the oil between 8.5 and 9 quarts, that I would only add maybe 1 quart in 50 hours of operation.  I also found that if I run the engine rpm at 2450 in cruise, that it will blow more oil than if I run at 2200 rpm.  I usually use only 1 quart every 50 hours, but on my trip to Santa Teresa for LOE 07, I used 1 quart in 10 – 12 hours.  During this trip, I ran the entire way at 2450 rpm.  There is no doubt that it is all coming out the breather.   

    

            Has anyone installed an Air/Oil Separator on there RV-10 that has some experience on if it works and returns the oil to the sump instead of all over the belly?  I would like to install one if it is going to work.  Right now oil on the belly is no big deal, but once I get some paint on it, I would like to keep it clean.   

    

       

Thank You

   Ray Doerr

   40250 (N519RV – 341 Hrs)    

    	  Quote: 	
		   

	
 [b]

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