|
Matronics Email Lists Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
|
View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
Allen Fulmer
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 79 Location: Alexander City, AL
|
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru |
|
|
Hello Bob,
Would you please take a look at the included quote from the newly released
installation manual for the Eggenfellner 6 Cylinder Subaru conversion?
In a nutshell, he wants a 20 amp circuit separate from the ECU and #1 Fuel
Pump. Since my battery busses are located in the rear next to the
batteries, should I just run another circuit (20amp fuse) along with the ECU
and #1 Fuel Pump circuits? Or what do you suggest?
See if my dilemma is justified after reading the following:
======================================================================
QUOTE from Egg. manual:
E6-Series Engine Wiring
1) RED - 20A EFI Power. This wire provides power for your
Electronic Fuel Injection system. This includes the ignition coils
and fuel injector coils.
This circuit is critical and must obtain power from the "Essential
Equipment Bus". In other words, no matter which battery is
supplying power, this circuit must remain powered.
Use a 20 Amp resetable, aircraft-quality circuit breaker.
Having said all this, it is not strictly necessary for this circuit
to be switched on and off along with the ignition switch at all. If
the ECU is powered down, then it will never trigger the coils and
this circuit will sit idle, consuming no power. However, most
builders will prefer to have this circuit "switched" in order to
minimize the number of "always hot" circuits in the aircraft. This
requires that whatever switch or relay is controlling this circuit,
be capable of reliably handling the 20 Amp load.
END QUOTE
QUOTE:
2) RED - 5A ECU Power. This wire provides power for the ECU, the
computer that controls your engine.
This circuit is critical and must obtain power from the "Essential
Equipment Bus". In other words, no matter which battery is supplying
power, this circuit must remain powered.
Use a 5 Amp resetable, aircraft-quality circuit breaker.
This circuit should be switched by your Ignition Switch. Turning
off this circuit effectively shuts down the engine.
END QUOTE
=====================================================================
As I understand Z19RB design, it seeks to feed essential engine power from
whichever Battery Bus is "hot" through the Engine Primary and Engine
Secondary OFF/ON switches and the associated bridge rectifiers. With the
batteries in the back, the switches and rectifiers would be located on
and/or near the instrument panel. That takes care of the ECU and #1 Fuel
Pump but what about the ignition coils and fuel injectors which Eggenfellner
calls the "Electronic Fuel Injection System"?
I seem to remember that you do not recommend feeding any load greater than
10A from the Battery busses. Hence the question, how to feed the
"Electronic Fuel Injection system" from a specified 20A source? Do we want
a pair of Three Pole/DT switches and another bridge rectifier w/heat sink
for the 20A load? Or another pair of switches (possibly named "Ignition
Primary OFF/ON" and "Ignition Secondary OFF/ON") and a bridge rectifier with
appropriately sized heat sink? Or do we need one or two relays at the
batteries just for the ignition power?
Thanks,
Allen Fulmer
RV7 Wiring
Eggenfellner Subaru H6 turbo
N808AF reserved
Alexander City, AL
256-329-2001
| - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
_________________ RV7 QB Fuselage
Eggenfellner H6 on orde
N808AF reserved
Alexander City, AL |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mikefapex
Joined: 05 Jul 2007 Posts: 70 Location: Colorado
|
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru |
|
|
Allen,
Those are great questions, I do hope Bob will weigh in. I am working a very similar system (Z19 RB) with my Suzuki engine, using the RotaryAviation (RA) EC2 engine controller. Coils at 20 Amps, EFI controller at 5 Amps, Injectors at 10 Amps.
RA advises not running the injector and coil wires together, or with other wires, due to the high current pulses generated by the EFI controller. That makes things a bit tricky with my pusher aircraft, as batteries, coils, injectors are all in the rear, and switches are up front. I was toying with using relays to in the rear to control the coils/injectors, switched from the front. Thinking this keeps the high current pulses back there.
Anyway, good questions. And good luck on your project.
Mike
| - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
bakerocb
Joined: 15 Jan 2006 Posts: 727 Location: FAIRFAX VA
|
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:39 am Post subject: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru |
|
|
12/28/2007
Hello Allen,
You posted: "QUOTE: 2) RED - 5A ECU Power. This wire provides power for the
ECU, the computer that controls your engine."
Does that computer incorporate a low power "limp home mode" for the engine?
A fellow builder had his engine go into that mode on the second flight and
put his airplane down into an orchard. Airplane destroyed, pilot badly
injured.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
-------------------------------------------------------
Time: 07:16:04 PM PST US
From: "Allen Fulmer" <afulmer(at)charter.net>
Subject: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg.
Subaru
Hello Bob,
Would you please take a look at the included quote from the newly released
installation manual for the Eggenfellner 6 Cylinder Subaru conversion?
In a nutshell, he wants a 20 amp circuit separate from the ECU and #1 Fuel
Pump. Since my battery busses are located in the rear next to the
batteries, should I just run another circuit (20amp fuse) along with the ECU
and #1 Fuel Pump circuits? Or what do you suggest?
See if my dilemma is justified after reading the following:
=====================================================================
QUOTE from Egg. manual:
E6-Series Engine Wiring
1) RED - 20A EFI Power. This wire provides power for your
Electronic Fuel Injection system. This includes the ignition coils
and fuel injector coils.
This circuit is critical and must obtain power from the "Essential
Equipment Bus". In other words, no matter which battery is
supplying power, this circuit must remain powered.
Use a 20 Amp resetable, aircraft-quality circuit breaker.
Having said all this, it is not strictly necessary for this circuit
to be switched on and off along with the ignition switch at all. If
the ECU is powered down, then it will never trigger the coils and
this circuit will sit idle, consuming no power. However, most
builders will prefer to have this circuit "switched" in order to
minimize the number of "always hot" circuits in the aircraft. This
requires that whatever switch or relay is controlling this circuit,
be capable of reliably handling the 20 Amp load.
END QUOTE
QUOTE:
2) RED - 5A ECU Power. This wire provides power for the ECU, the
computer that controls your engine.
...................... BIG SKIP ..............................
| - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Allen Fulmer
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 79 Location: Alexander City, AL
|
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:53 pm Post subject: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru |
|
|
Not sure about a "limp home" mode?
Allen
Quote: | >>Does that computer incorporate a low power "limp home mode"
>>for the engine?
>>
>>A fellow builder had his engine go into that mode on the
>>second flight and
>>put his airplane down into an orchard. Airplane destroyed,
>>pilot badly
>>injured.
|
| - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
_________________ RV7 QB Fuselage
Eggenfellner H6 on orde
N808AF reserved
Alexander City, AL |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mikefapex
Joined: 05 Jul 2007 Posts: 70 Location: Colorado
|
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru |
|
|
Regular automobile engine controller units often have this 'limp home mode'. They detect things that might be detrimental to the car engine, and reduce the RPM output, etc. (high H2O temp, low oil pressure,...) You can pull over and call a tow truck.
Obviously this is not a good thing flying. As I understand it, many of the add-on electronic fuel injection systems specifically for cars do not have this 'feature' either, or at least allow you to disable it. The two systems that I am familiar with specifically for flying, the RotaryAviation EC2 and the SDS systems do not have this mode. A reason I choose to go this route in the first place.
Mike
| - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
sshook(at)cox.net Guest
|
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:20 pm Post subject: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru |
|
|
If I recall correctly, Jan and Gary have both said that the Egg Subaru does
not have a low power limp home mode.
They STRONGLY suggest having the Engine (ECU and EFI) as well as the fuel
pumps powered by an essential bus that you can isolate. On page 51 of the
installation manual, there is a pretty simple diagram showing how the
essential bus gets isolated. Two batteries, two continuous duty relays (Main
and Aux), and two battery switches. The e-bus power connection is upstream
of the CD relay and 'always hot', isolated by a double throw switch
downstream.
Personally, I am going to be using a combination of Z19RB and the layout
from Eggenfellner. However, my electrical is still in design mode.
Scott R. Shook
RV-7A (Building)
N696JS (Reserved)
--
| - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
shoskins(at)MCHSI.COM Guest
|
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:14 pm Post subject: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru |
|
|
This discussion is interesting to me, also.
I will be installing the upcoming RWA EC3 controller (first production of new rev to be fiirst released in late February). This controller features redundancy by building two ignition/EFI controllers intone box. I have added a second high pressure pump for additional redundancy.
I am working on Z-19RB, and as I was designing the switching for any combination of Main/Endurance & A/B controller & main/backup pump, the installation got pretty cumbersome.
There must be a simpler way to go.
Sam Hoskins
On Dec 28, 2007 5:18 PM, Scott R. Shook <sshook(at)cox.net (sshook(at)cox.net)> wrote:
[quote] --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott R. Shook" <sshook(at)cox.net (sshook(at)cox.net)>
If I recall correctly, Jan and Gary have both said that the Egg Subaru does
not have a low power limp home mode.
They STRONGLY suggest having the Engine (ECU and EFI) as well as the fuel
pumps powered by an essential bus that you can isolate. On page 51 of the
installation manual, there is a pretty simple diagram showing how the
essential bus gets isolated. Two batteries, two continuous duty relays (Main
and Aux), and two battery switches. The e-bus power connection is upstream
of the CD relay and 'always hot', isolated by a double throw switch
downstream.
Personally, I am going to be using a combination of Z19RB and the layout
from Eggenfellner. However, my electrical is still in design mode.
Scott R. Shook
RV-7A (Building)
N696JS (Reserved)
--
| - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Ed Anderson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 475
|
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:13 pm Post subject: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru |
|
|
Mike, I have flow with the Real World Concepts EC2 Fuel Injection controller
for close to 5 years now. You are correct it does not have any features
which would automatically shut down the engine or reduce power- such as the
over temp protection shut down in some automobile CPUs.
It does have two completely separate and redundant computing systems
(Controller A and Controller B) which can be selected by flipping a switch.
So that means you could play with the fuel map setting of one controller and
should you manage to stop the engine (hard to do but certainly possible) ,
you can simply switch to the other controller (which hopefully you have left
with a runnable fuel map {:>)).
There have been some experimenters with alternative engines early on which
found out about the automobile CPU "protective" features at a most awkward
time - but, I believe most are now aware of that potential hazard.
Ed
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com
http://www.andersonee.com
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
---
| - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
_________________ Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mikefapex
Joined: 05 Jul 2007 Posts: 70 Location: Colorado
|
Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:35 am Post subject: Re: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru |
|
|
>>I have flow with the Real World Concepts EC2 Fuel Injection controller
for close to 5 years now. You are correct it does not have any features
which would automatically shut down the engine or reduce power- such as the
over temp protection shut down in some automobile CPUs.
<<
Ed, that is very good to hear of 5 years of good, solid performance. From my standpoint anyway . RW EC2 is the system I am installing now, along with the EM2 monitor. All in a Z19 type system.
Right now I am planning to have dual feeds from the main batt bus and engine batt bus for each of the: EC2, injectors, coils. Since these have widely different amperage loads (5/10/20 amps respectively as suggested by RW).
The part I am struggling with is similar to Allen's original question, about suggested wiring scheme for those separate components. The Z19 does not really address that level of detail. And since my engine is a pusher, with both batteries and busses at the rear of the aircraft. The switch panel is forward and I need to be careful (like avoid) running injector and coil power all the way forward, then back again. I also am wiring fuel pumps 1 and 2 with their own separate switches switches.
One suggestion was to leave the injectors and coils wired directly with no switch. That leaves these wires powered all the time, but since they do not really do anything unless triggered by the EC2 control unit that might be the way to go. And simply have one switch for the EC2 control unit.
Anyway, still pondering. Thanks again,
Mike
| - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Ed Anderson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 475
|
Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:46 pm Post subject: Re: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru |
|
|
Mike, sounds like a good plan.
With the Rotary and dual spark plugs, its possible to set up an electric circuit such that each coil and each pair of injectors have their own circuit breaker/fuse. With each wired directly to battery with its own circuit, you would have to lose power to both coils or both injector pairs to take you down.
I can certainly understand not wanting to run any more wire than necessary with your canard. Leaving the juice to the coils and injectors sounds like a reasonable scheme. I know the injectors will not draw any current unless triggered by the EC2, however, I am not as certain about the injector modules. Certainly without being trigger there would not be as much a power drain but, I think I would want to hook up an ignition coil to power and an ampere meter to confirm no power drain. It does not take much over several weeks of setting in a hanger to pull a battery down.
Here is another thought. The Contactors used in many aircraft to enable starters and other high current devices have a good reliability history as far as I can tell. I've been using the same ones for 10 years. You might consider two of them installed in rear to make the circuit to the coils and injectors (actually they handle so much current, contactors are probably over kill for this application). Then you would only need two small current wires (plus a common ground of course) and two switches up front to activate the contactors.
You need to keep the system as simple and with as few components as practical. Although I do not like leaving power to a system on when I am away from it - that might turn out to be the simplest method for certain.
Decisions, Decisions, Decisions. Happy New year
Ed
| - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
_________________ Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mikefapex
Joined: 05 Jul 2007 Posts: 70 Location: Colorado
|
Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru |
|
|
Ed,
Good suggestion on the relays/contactors. I was recently exploring this option and might experiment it out. I am already using a Perihelion Design Powerlink Jr solid state relay for the Z19 E-bus alternate feed, with max capacity of 35 amps. It is a nice, compact package good for a high-vibration location. Another of these might do the trick in the case of the coils. I don't like increasing part counts but ....
I still wish Bob would weigh in on these design issues, as an outgrowth of the Z19 design. I've seen these same questions come up but nobody has really addressed them as a part of that scheme as far as I can tell.
Fly safe,
Mike
| - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt Guest
|
Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:46 am Post subject: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru |
|
|
Bob
I add my voice to those (and there are hundreds more out there) who will be
very pleased (and will thank you) if you address this issue USING the
ExpBus.
Of course, it will be better if you do both (with and without the ExpBus).
Carlos
[quote] --
| - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
longg(at)pjm.com Guest
|
Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:03 am Post subject: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru |
|
|
If you guys are that far behind, why not abandon the ExpBus? It's not
like there is 1K's of $$ wrapped up in that stuff. If it were worth that
easy, you'd already be flying. It will take you about 2 hours to rip out
and toss the Expbus and replace it with a few ATC's at 1/4 the cost.
There are too many limitations with that device to offset the supposed
benefit of those silly breaker switchy things they use. I thought about
it initially too, but after some due diligence I won't let that thing in
the same room as my 2.5.
--
| - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
mikefapex
Joined: 05 Jul 2007 Posts: 70 Location: Colorado
|
Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:39 am Post subject: Re: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru |
|
|
I will second longg's comment about tossing the ExpBus. When I started all things electrical was pretty clueless. I too thought the ExpBus would be a salvation. Using Bob's book and reading this list helped a lot. Also talked with local EAA technical advisors. I came to realize, for my aircraft, the Expbus was actually very limited.
I have a much more flexible system design, and it is exactly what I want/need. The ExpBus would have been very limiting in delivering the things I want.
So read up and ask questions, plenty of good folks here to help.
Fly Safe,
Mike
| - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
marcausman
Joined: 08 Feb 2007 Posts: 70
|
Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru |
|
|
We recently updated our Subaru wiring diagrams to support the latest Subaru engine and wiring recommendations from Jan. The Vertical Power VP-100 and VP-200 can both be used with the Subaru engine. The VP-200 switch panel is now available in a special version that replaces the mag switch with an aux battery switch. Also, we are now developing the engine gauges specific to the Subaru engine.
More info here (at bottom of page): http://www.verticalpower.com/documents.html
and in this thread: http://www.verticalpower.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21
| - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
_________________ Marc Ausman
http://www.verticalpower.com "Move up to a modern electrical system"
RV-7 IO-390 Flying |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Terry Watson
Joined: 09 Jan 2006 Posts: 290 Location: Seattle, WA USA
|
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:11 am Post subject: Powering the Ignition and Fuel Injectors on Egg. Subaru |
|
|
I think you are confusing the ExpBus with Greg Richter's Aircraft Power
Board. Check the AeroElectric list archives for Greg's "Aircraft Wiring for
Smart People".
Terry
RV-8A, BMA/EFIS-one, wiring
<rdunhamtn(at)hotmail.com>
Carlos,
Pardon me for butting in here, but...
The ExpBus is a "canned" product designed by Greg Richter to be used
according to Mr Richter's design principles as outlined in Mr Richter's
book, "Wiring for Smart People". I heard Mr Richter speak at OSH in '05 and
read his "book". I liked it. <snip>
| - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum You cannot attach files in this forum You can download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|