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Short Changing Ourselves!!
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dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:43 am Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

Gary,  still a good deal for a kit. 

912 worth over 15k now plus muffler etc for Kitfox so figure up  t0 18k or so.   You basically got your kit for  5k  in that case.  

NICE JOB !!



Hard to believe flyin planes so cheap. 



I have a AVID Heavy Hauler for sale 3 miles from me .

near pristine, 200hrs TT  registered as amatuer built in Canada 

TURN KEY -- buy and fly........ owner wants 22k/ with trailer...........

I am sure he would let it go for 20k without trailer--open to offers.

Plane is Located 5 miles from London, Ontario, Canada



dave   (at)    cfisher.com

_________________
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Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:13 am Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

Here's my thoughts on current used Kitfox prices.  A big part of the FAA implementing the LSA catagory was to stimulate interest in aviation by creating an affordable airplane.  It didn't happen.  A year ago a new basic sport cub was about $85,000 and they couldn't build them fast enough to meet the demand for em.  Now the sport cub is about $119,000 and they still can't build em fast enough.  Prices on new LSA are not going to come down.



I went on a tour of the Cubcrafter's factory a year ago and it really made me think.  They were actually getting $100,000 ($1,000 per horse power) by the time a few accessories...like a useable fuel tank and a radio...were added.  I had a perfectly good Kitfox sitting in my shop not flying because I hadn't mastered the tail wheel thing.  My plane looks just as good too, and is better in a lot of ways.  That was the push I needed to bite the bullet, get the training, and fly my kitfox.  Thanks Cubcrafters! 



There are some very good deals on Kitfoxes listed on Barnstormers right now.  Somebody better buy one of those before those guys come to their senses.  Ready to fly LSA prices are not going to come down.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

dan(at)azshowersolutions.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:33 am Post subject: Short Changing Ourselves!!

Tom, with prices like the Cubs and the previously mentioned LSA Cessna, The sellers of Kitfoxes should come to their senses...It would be good for all of us in the Kitfox family. :>)

  Dan B

  Mesa, AZ 314DW

  Finishing Covering

  http://www.azshowersolutions.com/Build1.html



   

   

  Tom Jones <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Tom Jones" 



Here's my thoughts on current used Kitfox prices. A big part of the FAA implementing the LSA catagory was to stimulate interest in aviation by creating an affordable airplane. It didn't happen. A year ago a new basic sport cub was about $85,000  and they couldn't build them fast enough to meet the demand for em. Now the sport cub is about $119,000 and they still can't build em fast enough. Prices on new LSA are not going to come down.



I went on a tour of the Cubcrafter's factory a year ago and it really made me think. They were actually getting $100,000 ($1,000 per horse power) by the time a few accessories...like a useable fuel tank and a radio...were added. I had a perfectly good Kitfox sitting in my shop not flying because I hadn't mastered the tail wheel thing. My plane looks just as good too, and is better in a lot of ways. That was the push I needed to bite the bullet, get the training, and fly my kitfox. Thanks Cubcrafters! 



There are some very good deals on Kitfoxes listed on Barnstormers right now. Somebody better buy one of those before those guys come to their senses. Ready to fly LSA prices are not going to come down.



--------

Tom Jones

Classic IV, Phase one

503 Rotax, 72 [quote][b]

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:06 am Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

Well i been saying for a year or so now that Kitfox prices are  close if not bottomed out.  Surely if you bought at million $ worth of Used Kitfoxes you could likely  see a return of 50 to 100% over the next 1 to 5 years. 



Plus you could corner the Kitfox used market and have a lot of fun at the same time !! 



As of now  The Kitfox IV is not in production so that should really help the IV and pre IV models.  The super sport can capture some of the LSA action.  Funny how LSA planse sell for 100k and basically  the same plane as a 20k to 30k  used plane.

Edit--  I should have said  that does anyone really know how well the LSA

 market is really doing ?   I would bet there will be alot of chap 11 airplane companies in the near future  ..  ROME WAS NOT BUILT OVERNIGHT-  but it did crumble

shinco(at)bright.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:14 pm Post subject: Short Changing Ourselves!!

Not 2 shoot down any bodys airplane..But there is a flip side to this 

all so..I bought my KF2 used ,I did not build it either.I have all ways 

wanted a KF since the mid 80s.,but the cost at the time was too much $$ 

and too much time to build,.and never built a plane and did not know any 

thing about building one.and no one to help..so this did not happen for 

me at that time..But I never forgott the little KF,,and over time I 

bought and sold a few airplanes.and then I was able to buy the plane 

that I wanted way back then.and now I was able to buy the airplane that 

I wanted way back then,that i could not afford.and today because of the 

great price.and the very nice KF that I bought.a flying KF.that I now 

have and love.N554KF KF2.even today I could not afford to buy a LSA 

$40,000-over-$100,000.00.another reason that I bought N554KF.the KF is 

very reasonable to buy,FLY,and own.may be if all LSA was priced as KFs 

there would be more people buying.building,and flying.LSA has out priced 

many people out of avaition.that want 2 FLY and can not afford to do so 

because of LS companys out pricing them.thoes $100,000.00 LSA is not 

worth the big bucks.I can now afford to fly my KF using 4-5 gal an 

hour.the KF fits my needs.to the T,,,,,you can keep buying the big $$$.I 

will stick with my low cost KITFOX 2 with the 582.but some day,,SOON it 

will have the new Jabiru 2200 in her.for more cheap flying fun..This is 

what flying is all about guys.to have fun at a affordable cost.Steve 

Shinabery,N554KF,,,KF2 with the mighty 582



Don McIntosh wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I would say quite definitely. I am generally just a lurker on this site but I finally had to get up on my soapbox and speak. I canâ€™t believe you guys think these AIRPLANES are worth only what a few people are giving them away on Ebay for! The market price of anything is based on recent â€œcomparableâ€ sales of similar items. I believe some old guy died a ways back and his old widow had no idea of the value of his Kitfox, and didnâ€™t remember to put any value on the 1000 to 1500 hours he put into building it, so she basically gave it away (just to be rid of it) to some spam-canner that said it was just a TOY and only worth $15K tops.  Now someone finds out about this â€œsaleâ€ and puts his on Ebay (how did Ebay get to be the marketplace for airplanes anyway? Probably a new thread here...) because it is THE quick way to sell it, and he wasnâ€™t the one that built it either, so there goes another Kitfox for way below a reasonable price. I believe that part of the problem t!

  he Model IIIs and IVs are having with value now is that the majority of current owners either did not build the plane, or do not remember what it took to build it and are also only recovering the cost they put into it in yesterdayâ€™s dollars instead of current dollars. Do you realize the cost of the 100 HP Rotax 912S just went up to $19,500 +/- by itself? I think some out there are treating the IVs like a toy â€“ an ultralight maybe, and it is actually a real airplane. Look at the competition for Kitfoxes â€“ they are LSAs which are either 60+ year old Piper Cubs/Vagabonds/Champs/Chiefs that are FABRIC airplanes that are selling for $20 to 30K (and generally need another $10K of work to be safe or really as flyable as any Kitfox), or they are $80 to 120K S-LSAs! Make some of these prospective buyers go fly the competition first before they make you an offer on your Kitfox (I guess you canâ€™t do this on Ebay). The majority of the flying Series 7s that have sold, that I kno!

  w about, have gone in the $70 to 90K range, which seems reason!

  able for



  this airplane.  Sure, there are always going to be some â€œfire salesâ€ out there and there always will be, but some of the things I brought up should be considered when placing a value on your Kitfox to sell it. Gentlemen, these are real airplanes and yes, you are shortchanging yourselves, not to mention hurting the rest of us.



 --------

 Don McIntosh

 Kitfox Series 7 under construction

 Jabiru 3300





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155486#155486

avidfox

Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 87

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:23 pm Post subject: Short Changing Ourselves!!

 	  Quote: 	
		   

It was recently posted.  

"I believe some old guy died a ways back and his old widow had no idea of the value of his Kitfox, and didn't remember to put any value on the 1000 to 1500 hours he put into building it, so she basically gave it away (just to be rid of it) to some spam-canner that said it was just a TOY and only worth $15K tops...."  	
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  

 [quote] 

I was someone... perhaps THE one, who purchased a (possibly the mentioned) Kitfox for $15,000.  

It is a Series 5, with a 912 UL. 

It had a grand total of..... 26 hours flying time. 

As the great radio personality Paul Harvey says... 

"Now..., for the rest of the story....." 

  For 10 years prior to the death of the original owner and builder, Ray, I was the A&P \IA who maintained and inspected his "fleet" of aircraft. This was composed of a Dehavilland Super Chipmunk, a Cessna 337, and 2 Fairchild 24's and a North American "Yale". (a WWII trainer.) This coincided with my working on his neighbors North American AT-6 and Boeing Stearman. I was in the Warbird restoration business at the time and my qualifications unquestionable.  

  I did this work at a very (very) low hourly rate, after hours from my "day" job, as I enjoyed working on the aircraft mentioned and we often went on late evening flights in the various aircraft, all in the name of "maintenance tests"....naturally.   

  My flying experience began with the purchase of a 1948 PA-15 Vagabond for $4500.00 back in 19(cough cough) and I owned and flew the plane for 15 years before selling it to help finance the kids college. I did a total restoration of it about half way through that time and learned the art of dope and fabric at that time. To this day I consider it my speciality and there are many local examples of my work flying, be it individual flight controls or entire airframes.   

  Over the past 30 years I have (honestly) logged 1300 + hours in aircraft ranging from that original PA-15 Vagabond (first solo) to J-3's, 4's, 20's, Cessnas 120\140's, Champs, Citabrias Stearmans, T-6's, and best of all, 4 different WWII German Fi-156 Fieselers "Storch's" If you ever saw a "Storch" at Oshkosh during the '90's....I flew one of them there.  

Hardly a "spam-canner" pilot, 

  Soon after Ray's death, the widow asked me to determine a "value" for the Kitfox, but not being familiar with the Experimental Amateur-Built market all I could was go through his receipts he maliciously saved during construction and determined that he had spent $41,000 which included airframe kit, engine and installation kit, King digital flip-flop comm, transponder, encoder, elt, panel design and installation, Kitfox interior, and upgrades such as Grove gear, Hooker Harness setup, Cleveland wheels and brakes and a Scott tail wheel assembly.  

  Ray did, in my opinion, a beautiful job of constructing the aircraft, and the covering job is excellent. Everything was done, as I later discovered, "by the book", the construction manuals check-off squares dated and initialed. All work performed is what we in the business would refer to as "aircraft quality" Top notch all the way..That is how Ray was too.  

  For 5 years after his death ( we now have 15 years of family association) I helped the widow with the upkeep of the hanger, lawn equipment servicing and repair and once or twice a year would run the Kitfox up and change the oil. It was a "cute" little thing, but I had no interest in it and was not in a position to purchase and assume the cost of ownership of another aircraft.   

All this time the aircraft was advertised for sale and she was asking $35,000, plus or minus. 

 Every so often I would get a call from her saying that potential buyers would be coming to look at it and could I be there at the time. "Sure..., no problem.". 

  I lost count of the tire kickers, Yeager wannabe's and Kitfox "experts" who would try to con the poor old lady, thinking she had no idea of what she was trying to sell. They all tried to lowball her price, many stating that it was just "junk", with no finish paint, and good for a few parts only. I stayed out of $ negotiation as she could take care of herself.  

  Others wanted a "fresh annual" (it's a "condition report"...jeeze!) No one ever brought an A&P or professional appraiser with them. Some even wanted to fly it as is...just to "get the feel for it" I do not recall one person who stated " It's a fine piece of workmanship, I could trailer it out of here , give it a good once-over, and be happy, Let's negotiate on the price."   

  Everyone wanted to be the one who had discovered the "barn find" of the century and steal it away from the old widow. Not to be.... 

Note: I would not do the "condition report" because... 

#1, In this litigation crazy, sue everyone for anything world we have now, I didn't want to "get involved".with these "strangers".  

#2, I was not familiar with the Kitfox type aircraft and even less knowledgeable about the Rotax 912UL engine.  

She understood this completely and was fine with it. .  

  Last year the widow lady called and said the plane was leaking fuel...could I come over and fix it as she was intent on emptying the hanger so she could move from the airpark home into a local condo. The leak originated at the mil-6000 fuel lines, which I replaced with quality automotive hose. I suspect this was due to ethanol contamination over the 5 years of inactivity.  

At this time she was tired of the cons and asked if I was interested it the plane, even though she knew my financial situation would not allow me to pay her asking price. She stated a "quite" lower price then I expected, but still out of my reach.  

  I went home that night and realized that she was intent on selling the plane, now not to recover the cost but to be able to move off the property. She really didn't need the money. She was (is) quite well off financially. She just wanted to get out from under it and be done with it.  

  After a sleepless night I went back and told her I would love to give the bird a good home, but just didn't have the money. She asked what I could afford, and I blurted out that $15,000 was the most I could do with out taking out a loan. And that was the God's honest truth. If my home furnace went out, or my roof developed a leak, I would be "up a creek..." as they say...  

She looked at me, and, I swear, with a tear in her eye, she looked "up" to where Ray now resides and asked him, out loud...., "Raymond...? Is that OK with you?? (pause..)  

She then said to me..."That's fine." 

The next day, she got paid, and I, with help, folded the wings and pulled it home with the tailwheel tied down over the top of a padded pick-up truck lift gate to my garage. I spent the better part of the next few weeks going over every nut, bolt and pop rivit to determine it's condition. It was perfect, as I have said, By the book . The little nubbies were still on the tires, the seats still had fuzz on them. It had that "new airplane" smell too.  

  I have now put another 40 or so hours flight time on it this past season. I have also worked out a deal with a T-6, CubCrafter and Bonanza owner where as I receive a free, insulated, heated hanger at a local airport in exchange for my occasional A&P and IA services. So far my cost of ownership, with the exception of the purchase price, has been $00.00. (My personal vehicle fuel cost to "work" on these aircraft is also reimbursed.)  

I tell this story for a number of reasons. 

First, you don't need to be rich to fly if you are willing to make sacrifices. 

Second, treat people right and they will treat you the same. 

Third, if the potential buyers hadn't tried to cheat and lie to the widow, and offered her a reasonable price for what was obviously a fine product, they would be flying a great airplane today for a cost less the the investment in the airframe kit and engine alone, not me.   

 

  Now, when I approached this group a year or so ago I was immediately condemned by the self-called "experts" when I inquired about Sport Pilot Privileges with a Series 5. These "experts", who "knew it all" said I didn't "deserve" to own or fly such a craft as I hadn't built it myself. One went so far as to send E-mail glorifying his "vast" experience and "requesting" that I never, ever, fly "over his house" as he considered me a danger due to my "limited knowledge of aviation."  

That person then proceeded within the year to ball his own aircraft up in a field for reasons that have never been explained in this forum. 

. I shouldn't admit it but I find that quite ironic. 

I am pleased to say that I am able to, and do, fly my "5" under Sport Pilot privileges. Perfectly legal under the LSA rules and regulations. Learn what "Maximum Takeoff Weight" is, as defined by the FAA in regards to LSA issues, and apply it.   

In the words of Forest Gump..."That is all I have to say about that." 

Steve B. 

Michigan



[b]

john(at)leptron.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:54 pm Post subject: Short Changing Ourselves!!

Steve,  

Great explanation of the experience with not only the plane but the group. I some times am embarrassed with the input of the group. I have been on this list since if bought my plane in 92, my input has not been all I have wanted to do. It cost me 86 thousand dollars to build my fox the way I wanted, when, if ever I sale, it will be for what I have invested or to a friend, like you were to them.   

   

John Oakley  

Speedster 4 912ul cap.  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of 84KF

 Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 4:19 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!  

  

   

      	  Quote: 	
		    

It was recently posted.   

"I believe some old guy died a ways back and his old widow had no idea of the value of his Kitfox, and didn't remember to put any value on the 1000 to 1500 hours he put into building it, so she basically gave it away (just to be rid of it) to some spam-canner that said it was just a TOY and only worth $15K tops...."    	
    

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------  

    

   

   	  Quote: 	
		    

I was someone... perhaps THE one, who purchased a (possibly the mentioned) Kitfox for $15,000.   

It is a Series 5, with a 912 UL.  

It had a grand total of..... 26 hours flying time.  

As the great radio personality Paul Harvey says...  

"Now..., for the rest of the story....."  

  For 10 years prior to the death of the original owner and builder, Ray, I was the A&P \IA who maintained and inspected his "fleet" of aircraft. This was composed of a Dehavilland Super Chipmunk, a Cessna 337, and 2 Fairchild 24's and a North American "Yale". (a WWII trainer.) This coincided with my working on his neighbors North American AT-6 and Boeing Stearman. I was in the Warbird restoration business at the time and my qualifications unquestionable.   

  I did this work at a very (very) low hourly rate, after hours from my "day" job, as I enjoyed working on the aircraft mentioned and we often went on late evening flights in the various aircraft, all in the name of "maintenance tests"....naturally.   

  My flying experience began with the purchase of a 1948 PA-15 Vagabond for $4500.00 back in 19(cough cough) and I owned and flew the plane for 15 years before selling it to help finance the kids college. I did a total restoration of it about half way through that time and learned the art of dope and fabric at that time. To this day I consider it my speciality and there are many local examples of my work flying, be it individual flight controls or entire airframes.   

  Over the past 30 years I have (honestly) logged 1300 + hours in aircraft ranging from that original PA-15 Vagabond (first solo) to J-3's, 4's, 20's, Cessnas 120\140's, Champs, Citabrias Stearmans, T-6's, and best of all, 4 different WWII German Fi-156 Fieselers "Storch's" If you ever saw a "Storch" at Oshkosh during the '90's....I flew one of them there.   

Hardly a "spam-canner" pilot,  

  Soon after Ray's death, the widow asked me to determine a "value" for the Kitfox, but not being familiar with the Experimental Amateur-Built market all I could was go through his receipts he maliciously saved during construction and determined that he had spent $41,000 which included airframe kit, engine and installation kit, King digital flip-flop comm, transponder, encoder, elt, panel design and installation, Kitfox interior, and upgrades such as Grove gear, Hooker Harness setup, Cleveland wheels and brakes and a Scott tail wheel assembly.   

  Ray did, in my opinion, a beautiful job of constructing the aircraft, and the covering job is excellent. Everything was done, as I later discovered, "by the book", the construction manuals check-off squares dated and initialed. All work performed is what we in the business would refer to as "aircraft quality" Top notch all the way..That is how Ray was too.   

  For 5 years after his death ( we now have 15 years of family association) I helped the widow with the upkeep of the hanger, lawn equipment servicing and repair and once or twice a year would run the Kitfox up and change the oil. It was a "cute" little thing, but I had no interest in it and was not in a position to purchase and assume the cost of ownership of another aircraft.   

All this time the aircraft was advertised for sale and she was asking $35,000, plus or minus.  

 Every so often I would get a call from her saying that potential buyers would be coming to look at it and could I be there at the time. "Sure..., no problem.".  

  I lost count of the tire kickers, Yeager wannabe's and Kitfox "experts" who would try to con the poor old lady, thinking she had no idea of what she was trying to sell. They all tried to lowball her price, many stating that it was just "junk", with no finish paint, and good for a few parts only. I stayed out of $ negotiation as she could take care of herself.   

  Others wanted a "fresh annual" (it's a "condition report"...jeeze!) No one ever brought an A&P or professional appraiser with them. Some even wanted to fly it as is...just to "get the feel for it" I do not recall one person who stated " It's a fine piece of workmanship, I could trailer it out of here , give it a good once-over, and be happy, Let's negotiate on the price."   

  Everyone wanted to be the one who had discovered the "barn find" of the century and steal it away from the old widow. Not to be....  

Note: I would not do the "condition report" because...  

#1, In this litigation crazy, sue everyone for anything world we have now, I didn't want to "get involved".with these "strangers".   

#2, I was not familiar with the Kitfox type aircraft and even less knowledgeable about the Rotax 912UL engine.   

She understood this completely and was fine with it. .   

  Last year the widow lady called and said the plane was leaking fuel...could I come over and fix it as she was intent on emptying the hanger so she could move from the airpark home into a local condo. The leak originated at the mil-6000 fuel lines, which I replaced with quality automotive hose. I suspect this was due to ethanol contamination over the 5 years of inactivity.   

At this time she was tired of the cons and asked if I was interested it the plane, even though she knew my financial situation would not allow me to pay her asking price. She stated a "quite" lower price then I expected, but still out of my reach.   

  I went home that night and realized that she was intent on selling the plane, now not to recover the cost but to be able to move off the property. She really didn't need the money. She was (is) quite well off financially. She just wanted to get out from under it and be done with it.   

  After a sleepless night I went back and told her I would love to give the bird a good home, but just didn't have the money. She asked what I could afford, and I blurted out that $15,000 was the most I could do with out taking out a loan. And that was the God's honest truth. If my home furnace went out, or my roof developed a leak, I would be "up a creek..." as they say...   

She looked at me, and, I swear, with a tear in her eye, she looked "up" to where Ray now resides and asked him, out loud...., "Raymond...? Is that OK with you?? (pause..)   

She then said to me..."That's fine."  

The next day, she got paid, and I, with help, folded the wings and pulled it home with the tailwheel tied down over the top of a padded pick-up truck lift gate to my garage. I spent the better part of the next few weeks going over every nut, bolt and pop rivit to determine it's condition. It was perfect, as I have said, By the book . The little nubbies were still on the tires, the seats still had fuzz on them. It had that "new airplane" smell too.   

  I have now put another 40 or so hours flight time on it this past season. I have also worked out a deal with a T-6, CubCrafter and Bonanza owner where as I receive a free, insulated, heated hanger at a local airport in exchange for my occasional A&P and IA services. So far my cost of ownership, with the exception of the purchase price, has been $00.00. (My personal vehicle fuel cost to "work" on these aircraft is also reimbursed.)   

I tell this story for a number of reasons.  

First, you don't need to be rich to fly if you are willing to make sacrifices.  

Second, treat people right and they will treat you the same.  

Third, if the potential buyers hadn't tried to cheat and lie to the widow, and offered her a reasonable price for what was obviously a fine product, they would be flying a great airplane today for a cost less the the investment in the airframe kit and engine alone, not me.   

  Now, when I approached this group a year or so ago I was immediately condemned by the self-called "experts" when I inquired about Sport Pilot Privileges with a Series 5. These "experts", who "knew it all" said I didn't "deserve" to own or fly such a craft as I hadn't built it myself. One went so far as to send E-mail glorifying his "vast" experience and "requesting" that I never, ever, fly "over his house" as he considered me a danger due to my "limited knowledge of aviation."   

That person then proceeded within the year to ball his own aircraft up in a field for reasons that have never been explained in this forum.  

. I shouldn't admit it but I find that quite ironic.  

I am pleased to say that I am able to, and do, fly my "5" under Sport Pilot privileges. Perfectly legal under the LSA rules and regulations. Learn what "Maximum Takeoff Weight" is, as defined by the FAA in regards to LSA issues, and apply it.   

In the words of Forest Gump..."That is all I have to say about that."  

Steve B.  

Michigan  



 

 

   	
  

  

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kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

Steve,

Bravo, stay with it.  Have fun.  And most of all don't listen to the so called experts.

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

Oh, one more thing steve.



In the four years that I've had my P license I have had enough trouble from pilots that it would make you vomit if I told you.



I have this saying, I'm not a pilot, I fly airplanes, pilots are axx  hxxxx, and I don't want to be one of them.

kitfoxpilot(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:15 pm Post subject: Short Changing Ourselves!!

WOW! WOW!,  When I introduced this topic a few weeks ago, I did not know what to expect!  I only put this subject out there because, well maybe my own feelings of what I thought this fine airplane should be worth.  Everyone has made good points on the value of the Kitfox!!  I to purchased a built Model IV 1200 with a 912 ULS and never flew a tailwheel plane in my life.  I have found that everytime I fly my Fox I enjoy it more and more.  I hope I did not hurt fealings in any way.  By the way, if anyone wants to take a gander at my bird, go t pgrcclub.com and look under photographs for 2007 summer.  I flew my plane to there little field for a show and tell.

 Ray

  	  Quote: 	
		    From: john(at)leptron.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 16:52:48 -0700

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Steve, 

Great explanation of the experience with not only the plane but the group. I some times am embarrassed with the input of the group. I have been on this list since if bought my plane in 92, my input has not been all I have wanted to do. It cost me 86 thousand dollars to build my fox the way I wanted, when, if ever I sale, it will be for what I have invested or to a friend, like you were to them.  

John Oakley 

Speedster 4 912ul cap. 

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of 84KF

Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 4:19 PM

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

    	  Quote: 	
		   It was recently posted. 

 "I believe some old guy died a ways back and his old widow had no idea of the value of his Kitfox, and didn't remember to put any value on the 1000 to 1500 hours he put into building it, so she basically gave it away (just to be rid of it) to some spam-canner that said it was just a TOY and only worth $15K tops...."  

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  	  Quote: 	
		   I was someone... perhaps THE one, who purchased a (possibly the mentioned) Kitfox for $15,000. 

 It is a Series 5, with a 912 UL.

 It had a grand total of..... 26 hours flying time.

 As the great radio personality Paul Harvey says...

 "Now..., for the rest of the story....."

   For 10 years prior to the death of the original owner and builder, Ray, I was the A&P \IA who maintained and inspected his "fleet" of aircraft. This was composed of a Dehavilland Super Chipmunk, a Cessna 337, and 2 Fairchild 24's and a North American "Yale". (a WWII trainer.) This coincided with my working on his neighbors North American AT-6 and Boeing Stearman. I was in the Warbird restoration business at the time and my qualifications unquestionable. 

   I did this work at a very (very) low hourly rate, after hours from my "day" job, as I enjoyed working on the aircraft mentioned and we often went on late evening flights in the various aircraft, all in the name of "maintenance tests"....naturally. 

   My flying experience began with the purchase of a 1948 PA-15 Vagabond for $4500.00 back in 19(cough cough) and I owned and flew the plane for 15 years before selling it to help finance the kids college. I did a total restoration of it about half way through that time and learned the art of dope and fabric at that time. To this day I consider it my speciality and there are many local examples of my work flying, be it individual flight controls or entire airframes. 

   Over the past 30 years I have (honestly) logged 1300 + hours in aircraft ranging from that original PA-15 Vagabond (first solo) to J-3's, 4's, 20's, Cessnas 120\140's, Champs, Citabrias Stearmans, T-6's, and best of all, 4 different WWII German Fi-156 Fieselers "Storch's" If you ever saw a "Storch" at Oshkosh during the '90's....I flew one of them there. 

 Hardly a "spam-canner" pilot,

   Soon after Ray's death, the widow asked me to determine a "value" for the Kitfox, but not being familiar with the Experimental Amateur-Built market all I could was go through his receipts he maliciously saved during construction and determined that he had spent $41,000 which included airframe kit, engine and installation kit, King digital flip-flop comm, transponder, encoder, elt, panel design and installation, Kitfox interior, and upgrades such as Grove gear, Hooker Harness setup, Cleveland wheels and brakes and a Scott tail wheel assembly. 

   Ray did, in my opinion, a beautiful job of constructing the aircraft, and the covering job is excellent. Everything was done, as I later discovered, "by the book", the construction manuals check-off squares dated and initialed. All work performed is what we in the business would refer to as "aircraft quality" Top notch all the way..That is how Ray was too. 

   For 5 years after his death ( we now have 15 years of family association) I helped the widow with the upkeep of the hanger, lawn equipment servicing and repair and once or twice a year would run the Kitfox up and change the oil. It was a "cute" little thing, but I had no interest in it and was not in a position to purchase and assume the cost of ownership of another aircraft. 

 All this time the aircraft was advertised for sale and she was asking $35,000, plus or minus.

  Every so often I would get a call from her saying that potential buyers would be coming to look at it and could I be there at the time. "Sure..., no problem.".

   I lost count of the tire kickers, Yeager wannabe's and Kitfox "experts" who would try to con the poor old lady, thinking she had no idea of what she was trying to sell. They all tried to lowball her price, many stating that it was just "junk", with no finish paint, and good for a few parts only. I stayed out of $ negotiation as she could take care of herself. 

   Others wanted a "fresh annual" (it's a "condition report"...jeeze!) No one ever brought an A&P or professional appraiser with them. Some even wanted to fly it as is...just to "get the feel for it" I do not recall one person who stated " It's a fine piece of workmanship, I could trailer it out of here , give it a good once-over, and be happy, Let's negotiate on the price." 

   Everyone wanted to be the one who had discovered the "barn find" of the century and steal it away from the old widow. Not to be....

 Note: I would not do the "condition report" because...

 #1, In this litigation crazy, sue everyone for anything world we have now, I didn't want to "get involved".with these "strangers". 

 #2, I was not familiar with the Kitfox type aircraft and even less knowledgeable about the Rotax 912UL engine. 

 She understood this completely and was fine with it. . 

   Last year the widow lady called and said the plane was leaking fuel...could I come over and fix it as she was intent on emptying the hanger so she could move from the airpark home into a local condo. The leak originated at the mil-6000 fuel lines, which I replaced with quality automotive hose. I suspect this was due to ethanol contamination over the 5 years of inactivity. 

 At this time she was tired of the cons and asked if I was interested it the plane, even though she knew my financial situation would not allow me to pay her asking price. She stated a "quite" lower price then I expected, but still out of my reach. 

   I went home that night and realized that she was intent on selling the plane, now not to recover the cost but to be able to move off the property. She really didn't need the money. She was (is) quite well off financially. She just wanted to get out from under it and be done with it. 

   After a sleepless night I went back and told her I would love to give the bird a good home, but just didn't have the money. She asked what I could afford, and I blurted out that $15,000 was the most I could do with out taking out a loan. And that was the God's honest truth. If my home furnace went out, or my roof developed a leak, I would be "up a creek..." as they say.. 

 She looked at me, and, I swear, with a tear in her eye, she looked "up" to where Ray now resides and asked him, out loud...., "Raymond...? Is that OK with you?? (pause..) 

 She then said to me..."That's fine."

 The next day, she got paid, and I, with help, folded the wings and pulled it home with the tailwheel tied down over the top of a padded pick-up truck lift gate to my garage. I spent the better part of the next few weeks going over every nut, bolt and pop rivit to determine it's condition. It was perfect, as I have said, By the book . The little nubbies were still on the tires, the seats still had fuzz on them. It had that "new airplane" smell too. 

   I have now put another 40 or so hours flight time on it this past season. I have also worked out a deal with a T-6, CubCrafter and Bonanza owner where as I receive a free, insulated, heated hanger at a local airport in exchange for my occasional A&P and IA services. So far my cost of ownership, with the exception of the purchase price, has been $00.00. (My personal vehicle fuel cost to "work" on these aircraft is also reimbursed.) 

 I tell this story for a number of reasons.

 First, you don't need to be rich to fly if you are willing to make sacrifices.

 Second, treat people right and they will treat you the same.

 Third, if the potential buyers hadn't tried to cheat and lie to the widow, and offered her a reasonable price for what was obviously a fine product, they would be flying a great airplane today for a cost less the the investment in the airframe kit and engine alone, not me. 

   Now, when I approached this group a year or so ago I was immediately condemned by the self-called "experts" when I inquired about Sport Pilot Privileges with a Series 5. These "experts", who "knew it all" said I didn't "deserve" to own or fly such a craft as I hadn't built it myself. One went so far as to send E-mail glorifying his "vast" experience and "requesting" that I never, ever, fly "over his house" as he considered me a danger due to my "limited knowledge of aviation." 

 That person then proceeded within the year to ball his own aircraft up in a field for reasons that have never been explained in this forum.

 . I shouldn't admit it but I find that quite ironic.

 I am pleased to say that I am able to, and do, fly my "5" under Sport Pilot privileges. Perfectly legal under the LSA rules and regulations. Learn what "Maximum Takeoff Weight" is, as defined by the FAA in regards to LSA issues, and apply it. 

 In the words of Forest Gump..."That is all I have to say about that."

 Steve B.

 Michigan

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MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:56 pm Post subject: Short Changing Ourselves!!

Steve sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...when I approached this group a year or so ago I was immediately 

condemned by the self-called "experts" when I inquired about Sport 

Pilot Privileges with a Series 5. These "experts", who "knew it all" 

said I didn't "deserve" to own or fly such a craft as I hadn't built 

it myself.


	


Your revisionist history is quite creative, Steve.  Having sat 

through this entire debacle the first time around I'm hard pressed to 

see where your persecution complex originates.  Can you point us to a 

message from the archives in which someone said you don't deserve to 

own or fly a plane that someone else built?  As I recall, you spent a 

great deal of time trying to convince others of your interpretation 

of the sport rules, likely giving the impression that you are an 

"expert" in legal matters.  You're not an attorney, are you Steve? 

No, I think we established that last time.



 	  Quote: 	
		  One went so far as to send E-mail glorifying his "vast" 

experience...then proceeded within the year to ball his own aircraft 

up in a field for reasons that have never been explained in this 

forum.


	


What a slimey thing to say!  Kick 'em while they're down, is that 

your motto?  Maybe it's time to apply your second lesson ("treat 

people right and they will treat you the same.").



Members are under no obligation to provide this forum with anything. 

If someone elects not to share the details of a harrowing experience 

with this group that is their choice.  Read the NTSB report if you 

want to know what happened.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I am pleased to say that I am able to, and do, fly my "5" under 

Sport Pilot privileges. Perfectly legal under the LSA rules and 

regulations. Learn what "Maximum Takeoff Weight" is, as defined by 

the FAA in regards to LSA issues, and apply it.


	


Nobody ever said that a Series 5 Kitfox could not be operated under 

Sport Pilot rules.  The argument was whether or not an aircraft that 

had ever been operated above the weight limit for sport category 

could be operated under those rules, as yours seems to have been.  If 

you are that confident, why don't you post your tail number and 

address and we'll have the FAA come over and confirm your assertion? 

Shouldn't be a problem, right?  We could put this to bed right now 

and shut all the "experts" up.



Mike G.

N728KF

Phoenix, AZ

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:07 pm Post subject: Short Changing Ourselves!!

Ray sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I only put this subject out there because, well maybe my own 

feelings of what I thought this fine airplane should be worth. 

Everyone has made good points on the value of the Kitfox!


	


What we have proven with this discussion is that opinions are like 

butt holes--everybody has one.  Anyone who has poured their blood, 

sweat, and tears into building an airplane will have a different 

notion of the value of their creation than someone looking to 

low-ball a seller on price.



Nobody has brought up the less tangible aspects of buying or selling 

an experimental aircraft.  Like it or not, we live in an increasingly 

litigious world and the builder has considerable liability exposure 

when they sell their aircraft.  I find the notion of selling an 

airplane I built to a stranger very frightening!  The buyer is also 

at risk because the seller likely does not have the means to back up 

the product in the event of a problem.



Unfortunately, every seller has their own circumstances to be 

concerned with and ultimately it comes down to what a willing buyer 

and willing seller agree to.  Take a look at the housing market right 

now--encouraging sellers to hold out doesn't change a thing.



Mike G.

N728KF

Phoenix, AZ

john(at)leptron.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:07 pm Post subject: Short Changing Ourselves!!

Ray,  

That is a good looking plane, and a great place to fly it…  

John oakley  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RAY Gignac

 Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 6:15 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!  

  

   

WOW! WOW!,  When I introduced this topic a few weeks ago, I did not know what to expect!  I only put this subject out there because, well maybe my own feelings of what I thought this fine airplane should be worth.  Everyone has made good points on the value of the Kitfox!!  I to purchased a built Model IV 1200 with a 912 ULS and never flew a tailwheel plane in my life.  I have found that everytime I fly my Fox I enjoy it more and more.  I hope I did not hurt fealings in any way.  By the way, if anyone wants to take a gander at my bird, go t pgrcclub.com and look under photographs for 2007 summer.  I flew my plane to there little field for a show and tell.

  

 Ray

 

       

  

From: john(at)leptron.com

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

 Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 16:52:48 -0700    

Steve,  

Great explanation of the experience with not only the plane but the group. I some times am embarrassed with the input of the group. I have been on this list since if bought my plane in 92, my input has not been all I have wanted to do. It cost me 86 thousand dollars to build my fox the way I wanted, when, if ever I sale, it will be for what I have invested or to a friend, like you were to them.   

   

John Oakley  

Speedster 4 912ul cap.  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of 84KF

 Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 4:19 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!  

  

   

      	  Quote: 	
		    

It was recently posted. 

 "I believe some old guy died a ways back and his old widow had no idea of the value of his Kitfox, and didn't remember to put any value on the 1000 to 1500 hours he put into building it, so she basically gave it away (just to be rid of it) to some spam-canner that said it was just a TOY and only worth $15K tops...."    	
    

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------  

    

   

   	  Quote: 	
		    

I was someone... perhaps THE one, who purchased a (possibly the mentioned) Kitfox for $15,000. 

 It is a Series 5, with a 912 UL.

 It had a grand total of..... 26 hours flying time.

 As the great radio personality Paul Harvey says...

 "Now..., for the rest of the story....."

   For 10 years prior to the death of the original owner and builder, Ray, I was the A&P \IA who maintained and inspected his "fleet" of aircraft. This was composed of a Dehavilland Super Chipmunk, a Cessna 337, and 2 Fairchild 24's and a North American "Yale". (a WWII trainer.) This coincided with my working on his neighbors North American AT-6 and Boeing Stearman. I was in the Warbird restoration business at the time and my qualifications unquestionable. 

   I did this work at a very (very) low hourly rate, after hours from my "day" job, as I enjoyed working on the aircraft mentioned and we often went on late evening flights in the various aircraft, all in the name of "maintenance tests"....naturally. 

   My flying experience began with the purchase of a 1948 PA-15 Vagabond for $4500.00 back in 19(cough cough) and I owned and flew the plane for 15 years before selling it to help finance the kids college. I did a total restoration of it about half way through that time and learned the art of dope and fabric at that time. To this day I consider it my speciality and there are many local examples of my work flying, be it individual flight controls or entire airframes. 

   Over the past 30 years I have (honestly) logged 1300 + hours in aircraft ranging from that original PA-15 Vagabond (first solo) to J-3's, 4's, 20's, Cessnas 120\140's, Champs, Citabrias Stearmans, T-6's, and best of all, 4 different WWII German Fi-156 Fieselers "Storch's" If you ever saw a "Storch" at Oshkosh during the '90's....I flew one of them there. 

 Hardly a "spam-canner" pilot,

   Soon after Ray's death, the widow asked me to determine a "value" for the Kitfox, but not being familiar with the Experimental Amateur-Built market all I could was go through his receipts he maliciously saved during construction and determined that he had spent $41,000 which included airframe kit, engine and installation kit, King digital flip-flop comm, transponder, encoder, elt, panel design and installation, Kitfox interior, and upgrades such as Grove gear, Hooker Harness setup, Cleveland wheels and brakes and a Scott tail wheel assembly. 

   Ray did, in my opinion, a beautiful job of constructing the aircraft, and the covering job is excellent. Everything was done, as I later discovered, "by the book", the construction manuals check-off squares dated and initialed. All work performed is what we in the business would refer to as "aircraft quality" Top notch all the way..That is how Ray was too. 

   For 5 years after his death ( we now have 15 years of family association) I helped the widow with the upkeep of the hanger, lawn equipment servicing and repair and once or twice a year would run the Kitfox up and change the oil. It was a "cute" little thing, but I had no interest in it and was not in a position to purchase and assume the cost of ownership of another aircraft. 

 All this time the aircraft was advertised for sale and she was asking $35,000, plus or minus.

  Every so often I would get a call from her saying that potential buyers would be coming to look at it and could I be there at the time. "Sure..., no problem.".

   I lost count of the tire kickers, Yeager wannabe's and Kitfox "experts" who would try to con the poor old lady, thinking she had no idea of what she was trying to sell. They all tried to lowball her price, many stating that it was just "junk", with no finish paint, and good for a few parts only. I stayed out of $ negotiation as she could take care of herself. 

   Others wanted a "fresh annual" (it's a "condition report"...jeeze!) No one ever brought an A&P or professional appraiser with them. Some even wanted to fly it as is...just to "get the feel for it" I do not recall one person who stated " It's a fine piece of workmanship, I could trailer it out of here , give it a good once-over, and be happy, Let's negotiate on the price." 

   Everyone wanted to be the one who had discovered the "barn find" of the century and steal it away from the old widow. Not to be....

 Note: I would not do the "condition report" because...

 #1, In this litigation crazy, sue everyone for anything world we have now, I didn't want to "get involved".with these "strangers". 

 #2, I was not familiar with the Kitfox type aircraft and even less knowledgeable about the Rotax 912UL engine. 

 She understood this completely and was fine with it. . 

   Last year the widow lady called and said the plane was leaking fuel...could I come over and fix it as she was intent on emptying the hanger so she could move from the airpark home into a local condo. The leak originated at the mil-6000 fuel lines, which I replaced with quality automotive hose. I suspect this was due to ethanol contamination over the 5 years of inactivity. 

 At this time she was tired of the cons and asked if I was interested it the plane, even though she knew my financial situation would not allow me to pay her asking price. She stated a "quite" lower price then I expected, but still out of my reach. 

   I went home that night and realized that she was intent on selling the plane, now not to recover the cost but to be able to move off the property. She really didn't need the money. She was (is) quite well off financially. She just wanted to get out from under it and be done with it. 

   After a sleepless night I went back and told her I would love to give the bird a good home, but just didn't have the money. She asked what I could afford, and I blurted out that $15,000 was the most I could do with out taking out a loan. And that was the God's honest truth. If my home furnace went out, or my roof developed a leak, I would be "up a creek..." as they say... 

 She looked at me, and, I swear, with a tear in her eye, she looked "up" to where Ray now resides and asked him, out loud...., "Raymond...? Is that OK with you?? (pause..) 

 She then said to me..."That's fine."

 The next day, she got paid, and I, with help, folded the wings and pulled it home with the tailwheel tied down over the top of a padded pick-up truck lift gate to my garage. I spent the better part of the next few weeks going over every nut, bolt and pop rivit to determine it's condition. It was perfect, as I have said, By the book . The little nubbies were still on the tires, the seats still had fuzz on them. It had that "new airplane" smell too. 

   I have now put another 40 or so hours flight time on it this past season. I have also worked out a deal with a T-6, CubCrafter and Bonanza owner where as I receive a free, insulated, heated hanger at a local airport in exchange for my occasional A&P and IA services. So far my cost of ownership, with the exception of the purchase price, has been $00.00. (My personal vehicle fuel cost to "work" on these aircraft is also reimbursed.) 

 I tell this story for a number of reasons.

 First, you don't need to be rich to fly if you are willing to make sacrifices.

 Second, treat people right and they will treat you the same.

 Third, if the potential buyers hadn't tried to cheat and lie to the widow, and offered her a reasonable price for what was obviously a fine product, they would be flying a great airplane today for a cost less the the investment in the airframe kit and engine alone, not me. 

   Now, when I approached this group a year or so ago I was immediately condemned by the self-called "experts" when I inquired about Sport Pilot Privileges with a Series 5. These "experts", who "knew it all" said I didn't "deserve" to own or fly such a craft as I hadn't built it myself. One went so far as to send E-mail glorifying his "vast" experience and "requesting" that I never, ever, fly "over his house" as he considered me a danger due to my "limited knowledge of aviation." 

 That person then proceeded within the year to ball his own aircraft up in a field for reasons that have never been explained in this forum.

 . I shouldn't admit it but I find that quite ironic.

 I am pleased to say that I am able to, and do, fly my "5" under Sport Pilot privileges. Perfectly legal under the LSA rules and regulations. Learn what "Maximum Takeoff Weight" is, as defined by the FAA in regards to LSA issues, and apply it. 

 In the words of Forest Gump..."That is all I have to say about that."

 Steve B.

 Michigan  



 

   	
  

  

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dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

 	  Quote: 	
		  What a slimey thing to say! Kick 'em while they're down, is that 

your motto? Maybe it's time to apply your second lesson ("treat 

people right and they will treat you the same."). 	


Heck, I am waiting for Lowell to get back on the horse again and do what he loves doing , building and flying.   If  I lived near him , I would definalty be dropping in and dragging him out.    

Mike, you should take a step back and listen to yourself when you quote these things  --treat 

people right and they will treat you the same."). 



Your attitude comes across a bit strong at times you know.

shinco(at)bright.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:54 pm Post subject: Short Changing Ourselves!!

I truley belive that the LSA companys are out pricing there 

aircraft.They are pushing out the little guys that want 2 fly.what 

happen to the LSA idea.where to build a low price airplane ,own and 

fly.and afford.if more companys would have lower price kits,and engines 

to put in them.there would be more people that could afford to fly.to 

beable to fly.and to own.there would be more people see there dreams 

come true.as it did for me.I bought my KF N554KF off of barnstomers.I 

looked for the best deal for my hard earn $$.and found my dream of 

23+years.a real nice KF2.total time of 160hr.I even been teaching my 

self to fly her.And doing a good job of it.I had no TW time but a few 

hours in a friends L2.why??because of a dream 23yr ago.that I some day 

would have my own KF.I am proud of my little KF with the little 582.and 

I am all so proud of this group.and the friends that I made here.that 

help keep me and my KF2  N554KF flying.and guys that is what it is all 

about..to keep flying our kitfoxs and haveing fun by doing so....and 

THANKS to my kitfox family  here on the list..Steve Shinabery 

N554KF,,KF2  and proud of it



kitfoxmike wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Oh, one more thing steve.



 In the four years that I've had my P license I have had enough trouble from pilots that it would make you vomit if I told you.



 I have this saying, I'm not a pilot, I fly airplanes, pilots are axx  hxxxx, and I don't want to be one of them.



 --------

 kitfoxmike

 model IV, 1200

 speedster

 912ul

 building 

 RV7a

 slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit

 &quot;if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying enough&quot;

 Do not archive





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155620#155620

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject: Short Changing Ourselves!!

I can't believe what I just read!   First he describes himself as if he's campaigning for sainthood (his  version), made dubious assertions about other members, then that disgusting  comment about Lowell Fitt's crash that nearly killed himself and his wife.   (Yes, we all know who he was talking about)  The details of it  are Lowell's business and nobody else's unless he chooses to  share them.  

 Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP  355+ TT

"Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must  first be overcome".- Samuel Johnson

 

 

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It was recently posted.      

"I believe some old guy died a ways back and his old widow had no idea of      the value of his Kitfox, and didn't remember to put any value on the 1000 to      1500 hours he put into building it, so she basically gave it away (just to      be rid of it) to some spam-canner that said it was just a TOY and only worth      $15K tops...."  	
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I was someone... perhaps THE one, who purchased a      (possibly the mentioned) Kitfox for $15,000.      

It is a Series 5, with a 912 UL.     

It had a grand total of..... 26 hours flying time.     

As the great radio personality Paul Harvey says...     

"Now..., for the rest of the story....."     

  For 10 years prior to the death of the original owner and builder,      Ray, I was the A&P \IA who maintained and inspected his "fleet" of      aircraft. This was composed of a Dehavilland Super Chipmunk, a Cessna 337,      and 2 Fairchild 24's and a North American "Yale". (a WWII trainer.) This      coincided with my working on his neighbors North American AT-6 and Boeing      Stearman. I was in the Warbird restoration business at the time and my      qualifications unquestionable.      

  I did this work at a very (very) low hourly rate, after hours from      my "day" job, as I enjoyed working on the aircraft mentioned and we often      went on late evening flights in the various aircraft, all in the name of      "maintenance tests"....naturally.      

  My flying experience began with the purchase of a 1948 PA-15      Vagabond for $4500.00 back in 19(cough cough) and I owned and flew the plane      for 15 years before selling it to help finance the kids college. I did a      total restoration of it about half way through that time and learned the art      of dope and fabric at that time. To this day I consider it my speciality and      there are many local examples of my work flying, be it individual flight      controls or entire airframes.      

  Over the past 30 years I have (honestly) logged 1300 + hours in      aircraft ranging from that original PA-15 Vagabond (first solo) to J-3's,      4's, 20's, Cessnas 120\140's, Champs, Citabrias Stearmans, T-6's, and best      of all, 4 different WWII German Fi-156 Fieselers "Storch's" If you ever saw      a "Storch" at Oshkosh during the '90's....I flew one of them there.      

Hardly a "spam-canner" pilot,     

  Soon after Ray's death, the widow asked me to determine a "value"      for the Kitfox, but not being familiar with the Experimental Amateur-Built      market all I could was go through his receipts he maliciously saved during      construction and determined that he had spent $41,000 which included      airframe kit, engine and installation kit, King digital flip-flop comm,      transponder, encoder, elt, panel design and installation, Kitfox interior,      and upgrades such as Grove gear, Hooker Harness setup, Cleveland wheels and      brakes and a Scott tail wheel assembly.      

  Ray did, in my opinion, a beautiful job of constructing the      aircraft, and the covering job is excellent. Everything was done, as I later      discovered, "by the book", the construction manuals check-off squares dated      and initialed. All work performed is what we in the business would refer to      as "aircraft quality" Top notch all the way..That is how Ray was too.      

  For 5 years after his death ( we now have 15 years of family      association) I helped the widow with the upkeep of the hanger, lawn      equipment servicing and repair and once or twice a year would run the Kitfox      up and change the oil. It was a "cute" little thing, but I had no interest      in it and was not in a position to purchase and assume the cost of ownership      of another aircraft.      

All this time the aircraft was advertised for sale and she was asking      $35,000, plus or minus.     

 Every so often I would get a call from her saying that potential      buyers would be coming to look at it and could I be there at the time.      "Sure..., no problem.".     

  I lost count of the tire kickers, Yeager wannabe's and Kitfox      "experts" who would try to con the poor old lady, thinking she had no idea      of what she was trying to sell. They all tried to lowball her price, many      stating that it was just "junk", with no finish paint, and good for a few      parts only. I stayed out of $ negotiation as she could take care of herself.           

  Others wanted a "fresh annual" (it's a "condition      report"...jeeze!) No one ever brought an A&P or professional appraiser      with them. Some even wanted to fly it as is...just to "get the feel for it"      I do not recall one person who stated " It's a fine piece of workmanship, I      could trailer it out of here , give it a good once-over, and be happy, Let's      negotiate on the price."      

  Everyone wanted to be the one who had discovered the "barn find"      of the century and steal it away from the old widow. Not to be....     

Note: I would not do the "condition report" because...     

#1, In this litigation crazy, sue everyone for anything world we have      now, I didn't want to "get involved".with these "strangers".      

#2, I was not familiar with the Kitfox type aircraft and even less      knowledgeable about the Rotax 912UL engine.      

She understood this completely and was fine with it. .      

  Last year the widow lady called and said the plane was leaking      fuel...could I come over and fix it as she was intent on emptying the hanger      so she could move from the airpark home into a local condo. The leak      originated at the mil-6000 fuel lines, which I replaced with quality      automotive hose. I suspect this was due to ethanol contamination over the 5      years of inactivity.      

At this time she was tired of the cons and asked if I was interested it      the plane, even though she knew my financial situation would not allow me to      pay her asking price. She stated a "quite" lower price then I expected, but      still out of my reach.      

  I went home that night and realized that she was intent on selling      the plane, now not to recover the cost but to be able to move off the      property. She really didn't need the money. She was (is) quite well off      financially. She just wanted to get out from under it and be done with it.           

  After a sleepless night I went back and told her I would love to      give the bird a good home, but just didn't have the money. She asked what I      could afford, and I blurted out that $15,000 was the most I could do with      out taking out a loan. And that was the God's honest truth. If my home      furnace went out, or my roof developed a leak, I would be "up a creek..." as      they say...      

She looked at me, and, I swear, with a tear in her eye, she looked "up"      to where Ray now resides and asked him, out loud...., "Raymond...? Is that      OK with you?? (pause..)      

She then said to me..."That's fine."     

The next day, she got paid, and I, with help, folded the wings and pulled      it home with the tailwheel tied down over the top of a padded pick-up truck      lift gate to my garage. I spent the better part of the next few weeks going      over every nut, bolt and pop rivit to determine it's condition. It was      perfect, as I have said, By the book . The little nubbies were still on the      tires, the seats still had fuzz on them. It had that "new airplane" smell      too.      

  I have now put another 40 or so hours flight time on it this past      season. I have also worked out a deal with a T-6, CubCrafter and Bonanza      owner where as I receive a free, insulated, heated hanger at a local airport      in exchange for my occasional A&P and IA services. So far my cost of      ownership, with the exception of the purchase price, has been $00.00. (My      personal vehicle fuel cost to "work" on these aircraft is also reimbursed.)           

I tell this story for a number of reasons.     

First, you don't need to be rich to fly if you are willing to make      sacrifices.     

Second, treat people right and they will treat you the same.     

Third, if the potential buyers hadn't tried to cheat and lie to the      widow, and offered her a reasonable price for what was obviously a fine      product, they would be flying a great airplane today for a cost less the the      investment in the airframe kit and engine alone, not me.      

     

  Now, when I approached this group a year or so ago I was      immediately condemned by the self-called "experts" when I inquired about      Sport Pilot Privileges with a Series 5. These "experts", who "knew it all"      said I didn't "deserve" to own or fly such a craft as I hadn't built it      myself. One went so far as to send E-mail glorifying his "vast" experience      and "requesting" that I never, ever, fly "over his house" as he considered      me a danger due to my "limited knowledge of aviation."      

That person then proceeded within the year to ball his own aircraft up in      a field for reasons that have never been explained in this forum.     

. I shouldn't admit it but I find that quite ironic.     

I am pleased to say that I am able to, and do, fly my "5" under Sport      Pilot privileges. Perfectly legal under the LSA rules and regulations. Learn      what "Maximum Takeoff Weight" is, as defined by the FAA in regards to LSA      issues, and apply it.      

In the words of Forest Gump..."That is all I have to say about that."     

Steve B.     

Michigan







href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

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dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

Steve,  The question is are LSA's pricy ? 

Or are older Kitfox just so plentiful that they have become cheap? 

Rotax 582 is say 9k now 

912 15 to 20 k 



plus mounts , exhaust , props  etc............



We are seeing the used market very attractive for used Kitfox buyers  , it will dry up at some point.



You have to remember that the LSA manufacturers are not pumping out 5,000  planes each like Kitfox did and if they did then the market for their used planes would crater in too likely.

shinco(at)bright.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:17 pm Post subject: Short Changing Ourselves!!

Dave that is very true.I belive that kitfox was ahead of there time.



dave wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Steve,  The question is are LSA's pricy ? 

 Or are older Kitfox just so plentiful that they have become cheap? 

 Rotax 582 is say 9k now 

 912 15 to 20 k 



 plus mounts , exhaust , props  etc............



 We are seeing the used market very attractive for used Kitfox buyers  , it will dry up at some point.



 You have to remember that the LSA manufacturers are not pumping out 5,000  planes each like Kitfox did and if they did then the market for their used planes would crater in too likely.



 --------

 Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada

 Flying Videos and Kitfox Info

 http://www.cfisher.com/





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155655#155655

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:53 pm Post subject: Short Changing Ourselves!!

Dave sez:



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		  Mike, you should take a step back and listen to yourself when you 

quote these things  --treat people right and they will treat you the 

same.").



Your attitude comes across a bit strong at times you know.


	


Yes, I know Dave, my tone was deliberate.  I am getting really sick 

and tired of people trashing others on the list for no reason. 

Sometimes you have to rub their noses in it.



What is the point of this list?  To get together with others that 

share our interest in building and flying Avids and Kitfoxes.  Do we 

agree on everything?  Of course not--it would be boring if we did. 

But when folks start hitting below the belt I'm going to call them on 

it, it's my job as one of the list administrators.



Now, everyone.  Play nice!



Mike G.

N728KF

Phoenix, AZ

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:59 pm Post subject: Short Changing Ourselves!!

Kitfoxers, I saw a picture on Matt's Place of a mod IV that was converted to a biplane by Denny. Has anybody any idea how to find out more about that plane?



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

 From: customtrans(at)qwest.net

 Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 16:17:52 -0800

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" <customtrans(at)qwest.net>

 

 Steve,

 Bravo, stay with it. Have fun. And most of all don't listen to the so called experts.

 

 --------

 kitfoxmike

 model IV, 1200

 speedster

 912ul

 building 

 RV7a

 slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit

 &quot;if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying enough&quot;

 Do not archive

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155617#155617

 

 

 

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