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lrm(at)skyhawg.com
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 Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject: Starting my 701 project |
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I didn't want to comment about this, but some of you guys really don't seem to understand what a person can or cannot do. You are not choosing your words carefully and forgetting to remember what the purpose of this list is. David is not trying to start a business by undercutting Zenith, he was just offering to help out by making a few extra parts while he was making his. David has been a valued contributing member of this list for quite a time. It this an attempt to run him off? Some of you seem to be determined to do so. He is perfectly in his rights to make these parts as much as some one is to make an after market fender for a Chevrolet. And, if you don't want any of his parts then it's really not any of your business. If Zenith thinks he is somehow infringing on their rights, it's up to them to say something, not us.
I believe the airfoil Zenith uses is in the public domain and the design specs are available. Zenith does not have a patent on it or exclusive rights to manufacturer ribs or any other parts. As far as I know there is nothing on the 701 that is exclusively a Zenith design or invention. It is a compilation of many proven aircraft parts that were assembled into a what we know as a 701 It is actually a look alike of a Fieseler Storch (38-61) and several other similar older aircraft. Making look a likes of other aircraft is a practice that will continue long after we are gone.
We need to leave David alone and move on.
LRM www.skyhawg.com
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psm(at)ATT.NET
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:36 am Post subject: Starting my 701 project |
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Hi Mark,
Yes, I still feel it is fine for anybody to make any parts they want and sell them if they can.
The way I read the quoted verbiage is that the buyer agrees not to reproduce and sell the drawings. I don't see anything that says anything about selling airplane parts. The "them" in the quote refers to the previous list of items including: "Drawings, Manuals and parts (of the manuals and drawings).
It wouldn't make any sense at all to prohibit the buyer from reproducing, or communicating metal parts. I know I had to reproduce many parts that I screwed up on my first attempt to assemble them into my plane. I don't have any clue how I might communicate a metal part. It seems obvious to me that all of this refers to the drawings and other printed material.
I agree that reproducing the printed material, which is clearly copyrighted, would be an ethical and legal breach. It is not because of the contract, but because the material is copyrighted. When anyone produces written material and includes the magic word "Copyright" that makes it a moral problem for anyone else to reproduce and sell the material without permission. That right doesn't extend to the design of the airplane parts which is documented in the drawings. That would require a patent and Zenith clearly can't possibly have such a patent since they didn't invent any of the stuff in the drawings. As mentioned by someone the last time this whole can of worms came up, they could have a "Design Patent" on the whole airplane design. If they did (which I seriously doubt) then they could get a court to support the patent if someone were to build and sell whole airplanes without license from the patent holder. In practice this wouldn't work, because they keep changing details in the design and each little change makes a whole new design to protect.
I feel the whole contract is a bunch of nonsense. It is an attempt by Zenith to prevent law suits being filed against them for any implied product liability relating to their products. Since I have no intention of suing them for such liability, I am not particularly concerned with the contents of the contract. The only ethical breach of contract (as opposed to a legal portion of the contract that could be enforced in a court of law) I can imagine is if I, or some other Zenith customer, decided to build several airplanes from a single set of plans. That is distinctly different from building as many component parts as I choose to build either for inclusion in my one authorized plane or for sale to anybody who wants to buy them.
With regard to all the comments made by you and others that some of us have committed some sort of sin, I think that is utter nonsense. It is not up to you or any other list members to attempt to enforce the Zenith builder's contract. It is up to Zenith to do any enforcement they think they can get away with. I feel that no crimes have been committed, and by telling someone they are committing a crime in a public forum when they have not done so you are indeed committing a offense. It is called slander and/or libel.
Indeed, I don't think Zenith would or could enforce any of the builder's contract. It would not be practical, economical, or even reasonable for them to do so. It would also be a terrible business practice to take their customers to court over a breach of contract. Once the word got out that being a Zenith customer puts you at risk for being sued it would be difficult to convince anyone to be such a customer.
Paul
XL fuselage
At 10:58 AM 1/6/2008, you wrote:
[quote]
This contract permits the buyer to build one airplane or part of it in the Custom-Built, Experimental, Ultralight, etc. category. The type of aircraft and the Drawings serial number must be visibly
marked on the vertical tail or fuselage sides of the aircraft. The buyer is advised that the Drawings, Manuals, and/or parts contain proprietary rights. The buyer covenants and agrees that he will not:
a) Reproduce, b) Communicate, c) Transfer, sell, exchange or modify them or any part of them, d) Permit any other person to use said drawings, manual, and/or parts, without the written permission of the Company.
I am old fashioned and truly believe that a mans handshake and signature is his ethical bond. IF I sign a document that says I cannot use a persons design to sell his parts without expressed permission then maybe I shouldn’t, legal or not, I have signed my name to it. So after reading the line from the contract Paul, do you still feel it is right to make a part from the plans and sell it in any way? I am at a loss, I cannot force my views upon you or anyone and all my ramblings here on this subject are just that they are my opinion, but god I hope more people out there share my view then yours.
Mark [b]
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skyridersbn(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:41 am Post subject: Starting my 701 project |
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If you REALLY WANT TO KNOW - CALL ZENITH AIRCRAFT COMPANY! I'm POSITIVE they will tell you the truth. Just don't be shocked if they tell you you CAN'T do it. Put this discussion to rest finally and lets get on with something different please.
Be a better friend, newshound, and [quote][b]
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ter_turn(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:51 am Post subject: Starting my 701 project |
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Gentleman, there are grim statistics concerning the percentage of scratch builders of any airplane actually completing and flying their creation. I don't think Zenith or any company selling kits needs to worry about a builder on steroids producing enough parts to put them out of business. Relax, take a deep breath, and try to figure out how you're going to break the news to MAMA
that the engine you need to power your creation is going to cost about as much as you paid for your house!
Terry Turnquist
601XL-Parts
St Peters, MO
Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net> wrote: | Quote: | Hi Mark,
Yes, I still feel it is fine for anybody to make any parts they want and sell them if they can.
The way I read the quoted verbiage is that the buyer agrees not to reproduce and sell the drawings. I don't see anything that says anything about selling airplane parts. The "them" in the quote refers to the previous list of items including: "Drawings, Manuals and parts (of the manuals and drawings).
It wouldn't make any sense at all to prohibit the buyer from reproducing, or communicating metal parts. I know I had to reproduce many parts that I screwed up on my first attempt to assemble them into my plane. I don't have any clue how I might communicate a metal part. It seems obvious to me that all of this refers to the drawings and other printed material.
I agree that reproducing the printed material, which is clearly copyrighted, would be an ethical and legal breach. It is not because of the contract, but because the material is copyrighted. When anyone produces written material and includes the magic word "Copyright" that makes it a moral problem for anyone else to reproduce and sell the material without permission. That right doesn't extend to the design of the airplane parts which is documented in the drawings. That would require a patent and Zenith clearly can't possibly have such a patent since they didn't invent any of the stuff in the drawings. As mentioned by someone the last time this whole can of worms came up, they could have a "Design Patent" on the whole airplane design. If they did (which I |
Be a better friend, newshound, and [quote][b]
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skyridersbn(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:35 am Post subject: Starting my 701 project |
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Not quite so fast about the statement regarding the cost of an engine "costing more than your house". You can build a 100 HP, 6 six cylinder, corvair conversion for less than $4000. Check this website out and find out for yourself:
www.flycorvair.com
If you aren't that mechanically inclined, call them and ask what the price is for one already built up and ready to go. I'm positive it will be about half what you would pay for a Rotax, Jabiru or a Continental.
I
[quote][b]
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tjs22t(at)verizon.net
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:50 pm Post subject: Starting my 701 project |
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[quote] do not archive
Larry,
Good work, keep it up! We need more listers to get a bit up in arms about the waste of verbiage on this forum. Some equate the First Amendment as their right to spout off on anything when it is really a bit out of the Jerry Springer "I'll showcase any idiot" garbage bin. This issue IS long dead, a dead horse, even a dead parrot - maybe we could zap it with a laser! They won't call ZAC because then they would have the facts, and while they are welcome to their opinions, they don't want said opinions to be placed against facts. Many of the problems faced on this medium come from the e-mail format where communication takes place without benefit of intonenation, inflection, and immediate scrutiny of statement. Mark sohuld not have to waste his time when this issue rolls over in its grave every three months.
Don't forget that your e-mail program usually has a block caller feature that allows your to screen some of this nonsense that comes from two or three listers.
Keep up the fight, maybe we could all benefit from reading the list guidelines - something many of these folks have never done.
If you REALLY WANT TO KNOW - CALL ZENITH AIRCRAFT COMPANY! I'm POSITIVE they will tell you the truth. Just don't be shocked if they tell you you CAN'T do it. Put this discussion to rest finally and lets get on with something different please.
[b]
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Tommy Walker
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 442
Location: Anniston, AL 36207
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: Starting my 701 project |
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HEY!
DON'T MAKE ME COME DOWN THERE!
SIGNED
DOG
THOU SHALT NOT ARCHIVE
LOL Sorry, couldn't resist
do not archive
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_________________
Tommy Walker
N25A - Anniston, AL |
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skyridersbn(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:51 pm Post subject: Starting my 701 project |
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Thanks Thomas for the kind words.
I have to admit I haven't read the "rules of engagement" myself but I DID use my God given common sense when I called them on this. It makes my behind very TIRED reading and SIFTING through the garbage to get to things that ARE of importance. Too bad more people don't feel the way we do about it. In fact, I got chastised last week for saying something like I did on this post, and I was told to "chill out and take a breather". I say WHOOEY TO THAT! I don't have the time OR energy to waste reading idle GARBAGE.
Regards,
Larry
Be a better friend, newshound, and [quote][b]
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