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Sully

Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 9
Location: Euless, TX

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:19 pm Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS

I wanted to find out if anyone has recent experience with performance and support from Blue Mountain. I have an opportunity to buy a EFIS/One from someone who hasn't been satisfied, but most of the negative posts I've seen,  seem to be several months old. Any current info will appreciated.

Sully

_________________
Sully
RV-7 In-work

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:36 am Post subject: Re: Blue Mountain EFIS

I have 4 BMA Efis's and 2 autopilots in 2 different planes. Have had them for over 4 years and 500 hrs now. My experience with service and support has been good.



Depending on the Generation of EFIS it may or may not be the right one for you. It also depends on what you want it to do.



If you are going to use a Garmin 430 or 530 or an autopilot other than BMA I would not get a BMA EFIS especially if it is a pre gen 4 EFIS and even then I would be hesitant. They work great with an SL 30.



Also the pre gen 4 units will never be upgradable to the features of the generation 4 units so what you get is what you will have. I enjoy flying my Gen 1 EFIS 1 but it just cant compare to my Gen 4 Sport in features and function.



Support right now for the pre gen 4 units is slow but improving.



BMA had a real nightmare of a launch with the Gen 4 products and appears to have gotten most (not all) items resolved and hopefully they are now going back and finishing the un resolved issues with Gen 3.

For me the BMA units did all the things I wanted at the right price and weight. The delivery delays were not an issue for me but for some they caused considerable problems and rightfully made a lot of people really angry. Hopefully this is all in the past.



In any event fully evaluate your needs in an EFIS and what you expect to integrate it with and then look at all the options available. If the BMA unit fits the bill and is at a good price I wouldn't hesitate at buying it.

_________________
Milt

mlas(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:24 am Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS

PS- On BMA



They won't let customers back onto their board if you leave bad

feedback, that's why you don't see as much negative reporting.  I'm not

sure if they do this actively or not but I have sent them three requests

to get on their web board and they don't reply.  I gave up so I don't

know what they would say if I pressured them.  Besides, I can only deal

with their attitudes for about five minutes a month and I didn't want to

use up all my gum balls.



Here are some of my more recent stories regarding BMA: I ran into a guy

that had two Blue Mountain EFIS One's in his Harmon Rocket.  I was

looking at it and I asked why he also had two Dynon's right next to the

EFIS One.   His response to me was the EFIS One would fail all the time

and he would simply pull the unites and send them back every oil change

because the most he would every get out of the unit was about 40 hours.

He has over a year and a half on the units and was going to remove them

this winter.  This story was from August 2007.



This is a story from my unit: A BMA EFIS Lite G3.  For those of you who

read the BMA web boards there is a story about the altimeter freezing up

in flight.  The response is that it can't happen from the BMA folks.  I

have had that problem twice and was told over the phone that that can't

happen.  So I looked into the mirror and said it must be me and the

altimeter is really working and the ground is just not staying in the

correct spot.  (on a serious note, I think the problem is a thermal

issue,  I think the unit needs forced air to keep it cool so far that

seems to be working.  "I fear the day I have to use it in the clouds

fortunately it only backs up a real EFIS and I added a stem gauge!")



This last story is in progress:  I have a coworker who is building an

RV8 fastback with a partner.  Both are detailed people are doing a high

end build with all the bells and whistles.  Attention to detail is a 10

(I'll send photos). One of them is an EE and knows his way around

electronics at the micro level.  They purchased a BMA EFIS one and have

not flown yet.  Most of the probes had to have trimmers installed so

they would read accurately throughout the range of operations (I told

you they were detailed).  Most of the probes went out of cal out of

nominal rest.  I will post when we get to first flight.



Mike Larkin



--

echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:34 am Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS

N395V wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   BMA had a real nightmare of a launch with the Gen 4 products and appears to have gotten most (not all) items resolved and hopefully they are now going back and finishing the un resolved issues with Gen 3.

   

This statement right here would eliminate the entire company from any 
	


prospect of doing business with me.  Read what is written there.  Their 

Gen 3 products do not work for the purpose intended.  Instead of fixing 

that product and making things right for their customers, they're busy 

working on the next revision...which they subsequently sell to customers 

in a broken state.  A flight computer for a GA aircraft lives in a very 

constrained environment.  Temperature ranges and inertial forces have 

well defined limits.  There is no excuse for a unit not to be tested to 

the extent of those limits.  The  fact that they would repeatedly push 

untested products into a potentially life threatening situation says to 

me that the company is less than ethical.

peter(at)sportingaero.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS

I work in military avionics (I started out as an aerodynamicist); my

view is that airplane guys who move into electronics produce much better

EFIS and autopilot products than electronics guys who move into

airplanes. Ask about the background of the company who built the product

and make a decision accordingly. I have no direct experience of BMA

products, but their representatives at the various airshows did not talk

enough 'airplane' for me.



Peter



--

henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:18 pm Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS

Peter,



Your view seems biased to me.  You work in military avionics yet ou think that airplane guys who move into electronics produce much better EFISs and autopilots than "electronic guys" who move into airplanes.  I'm not sure what you mean by "electronic guys," but I suspect it is workers who produce commercial products.  That's like Lenin claiming that communism is better than capitalism.



I also do not have direct experience with BMA products, but I've seen their reps at airshows.  They seem to know what they're talking about just like the other guys.  If they're having problems, I am willing to bet that they are business related decisions, i.e., shipping too early to meet deadlines, not ordering enough parts on time, technical problems due to hurried schedules, etc.  These problems plague any organization that isn't run properly.  It has nothing to do with whether someone has military experience or not.



Henador



---

sam.marlow

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 99

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS

I've been in the aircraft business as long as most people on this list,and I've never head as many complaints about any other vender as Blue Mountain. Why don't you just blow off the advice of this list,and go ahead and buy there product, then tell us were wrong! 

Sam



---- Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com> wrote: 



=============




Peter,



Your view seems biased to me.  You work in military avionics yet ou think that airplane guys who move into electronics produce much better EFISs and autopilots than "electronic guys" who move into airplanes.  I'm not sure what you mean by "electronic guys," but I suspect it is workers who produce commercial products.  That's like Lenin claiming that communism is better than capitalism.



I also do not have direct experience with BMA products, but I've seen their reps at airshows.  They seem to know what they're talking about just like the other guys.  If they're having problems, I am willing to bet that they are business related decisions, i.e., shipping too early to meet deadlines, not ordering enough parts on time, technical problems due to hurried schedules, etc.  These problems plague any organization that isn't run properly.  It has nothing to do with whether someone has military experience or not.



Henador



---

henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS

Sam, the advice on this list sometimes gets pretty ridiculous, like telling me to buy an EFIS that I don't need.  What are you, some kind of control freak?



Henador



---

mlas(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:46 pm Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS

Henador,



I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think you have any idea what you

are talking about as it pertains to Blue Mountain Avionics.  I have

written four posts today on this subject on two different sites.  I have

been nice and danced around the issue figuring that all could read

between the lines.  But for you let me be direct, if a boat anchor is

what you need then BMA is for you.  If you want to fly in the clouds

then BMA is not for you....



Mike



--

bferrell(at)123mail.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:02 pm Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS

Just to play devil's advocate, I HAVE a BMA, and have been satisfied.  I think

that for the price, they offer the most capable and current functionality, but

I think you need to be choiceful with your upgrades because being first can

mean things aren't as solid as many expect.  I'd rather have the option of

perfectly stable or leading tech with some possibility of issue - at my

discretion.  They are certainly not for everyone.



Brett

www.velocityxl.com



Quoting Mike <mlas(at)cox.net>:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Henador,



 I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think you have any idea what you

 are talking about as it pertains to Blue Mountain Avionics.  I have

 written four posts today on this subject on two different sites.  I have

 been nice and danced around the issue figuring that all could read

 between the lines.  But for you let me be direct, if a boat anchor is

 what you need then BMA is for you.  If you want to fly in the clouds

 then BMA is not for you....



 Mike

rv9aplane(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:35 pm Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS

Wow! So much information from people who have never owned the product!  You know I heard from someone that Elvis is alive...I don't have to listen to anyone else cause it nust be true!



 On Jan 14, 2008 7:59 PM, Brett Ferrell <bferrell(at)123mail.net (bferrell(at)123mail.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brett Ferrell <bferrell(at)123mail.net  (bferrell(at)123mail.net)>



Just to play devil's advocate, I HAVE a BMA, and have been satisfied.  I think

that for the price, they offer the most capable and current functionality, but

I think you need to be choiceful with your upgrades because being first can 

mean things aren't as solid as many expect.  I'd rather have the option of

perfectly stable or leading tech with some possibility of issue - at my

discretion.  They are certainly not for everyone.



 Brett

www.velocityxl.com

 

Quoting Mike <mlas(at)cox.net (mlas(at)cox.net)>:



 	  Quote: 	
		   --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike" <mlas(at)cox.net (mlas(at)cox.net)> 



 Henador,



 I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think you have any idea what you

 are talking about as it pertains to Blue Mountain Avionics.  I have

 written four posts today on this subject on two different sites.  I have 

 been nice and danced around the issue figuring that all could read

 between the lines.  But for you let me be direct, if a boat anchor is

 what you need then BMA is for you.  If you want to fly in the clouds 

 then BMA is not for you....



 Mike




	




  

 



  [quote][b]

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:11 am Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS

Bruce,  

  

 The  experiences reported by others are just data bits.  It's up to the  recipient to determine whether the props or reported dings apply to their  situation or not.  One is free to discount the comments of all  others.  The advantage of doing so is the opportunity to relearn the same  lessons they have already learned.  If I recall correctly, that's why  history keeps repeating itself.

  

 Certainly, because someone reports something about a product or person  doesn't make it a fact or an opinion, but simply information to consider,  digest and factor into one's own actions.  That reporting is one of the  most valuable aspects of these lists.  That reporting is one of the reasons  I bought dual GRT EFIS--because of the feature set, reputation of delivering on  promised upgrades and excellent customer support; all of which I have found to  be accurate.

  

 You  are certainly welcome to ignore outside information, but one does so at their  own peril and pain.

  

 Chuck

 

Do Not  Archive [quote]   --

bferrell(at)123mail.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:45 am Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS

I'm missing something here, Bruce.  As I said, I HAVE owned (and still do) the

product, you can see pictures of it on my website (listed below), so I'm not

sure how this message is relevant.  Or, were you not trying to make a relevant

point??



http://www.velocityxl.com/EFIS_one.JPG



B



Quoting Bruce Peters <rv9aplane(at)gmail.com>:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Wow! So much information from people who have never owned the product!  You

 know I heard from someone that Elvis is alive...I don't have to listen to

 anyone else cause it nust be true!



 On Jan 14, 2008 7:59 PM, Brett Ferrell <bferrell(at)123mail.net> wrote:



 > 

 > bferrell(at)123mail.net>

 >

 > Just to play devil's advocate, I HAVE a BMA, and have been satisfied.  I

 > think

 > that for the price, they offer the most capable and current functionality,

 > but

 > I think you need to be choiceful with your upgrades because being first

 > can

 > mean things aren't as solid as many expect.  I'd rather have the option of

 > perfectly stable or leading tech with some possibility of issue - at my

 > discretion.  They are certainly not for everyone.

 >

 > Brett

 > www.velocityxl.com

 >

 > Quoting Mike <mlas(at)cox.net>:

 >

 > > 

 > >

 > > Henador,

 > >

 > > I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think you have any idea what you

 > > are talking about as it pertains to Blue Mountain Avionics.  I have

 > > written four posts today on this subject on two different sites.  I have

 > > been nice and danced around the issue figuring that all could read

 > > between the lines.  But for you let me be direct, if a boat anchor is

 > > what you need then BMA is for you.  If you want to fly in the clouds

 > > then BMA is not for you....

 > >

 > > Mike

 > >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

mlas(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:47 am Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS

Bruce,  

   

I have a BMA EFIS, I’ll sell it to you for half price!    

   

What I think is funny, is that people who don’t have one want to support it, or people who spent all the money they had are stuck with it and are forced to love it.  I just want to keep people informed and keep them from make the same mistake others including myself have made.  The BMA product looks good on paper.  When I started looking at it I saw the problems with the original product and the second generation product.  I used some of the same deduction and reasoning that has been exhibited here on this site.  I said self, they should have their shit together by the third iteration and the price should be right.  The whole time the product litterateur got prettier and prettier.  Well it doesn’t work!  The screens freeze up, the unit crashes, most of the info coming from the probes on the engine system is not correct, the database they use is not certified(this may have changed recently), and their product support in a word sucks (It’s the worst in the industry).  Caveat emptor!  

   

Mike  

   

--

mlas(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:48 am Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS

Chuck,  

   

Well said!  

   

Mike  

   

Ps- How’s the GRT system treating you?  

   

--

stein(at)steinair.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:28 am Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS

Just Curious, how many successfull flight hours do you have behind your BMA?



Cheers,

Stein



do not archive



[quote]--

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:59 am Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS

Mike,

  

 I'm  certainly satisfied with the GRT EFIS and the "service experience."  At one  time, GRT was way ahead in features with ability to fly coupled approaches, maps  overlays and what all....many of the things BMA promised but never delivered  (and no, I don't own a BMA, but that doesn't mean I can't have an  opinion!).  The main ding on GRT was the low resolution of the  display.  The display was not as beautiful as a BMA, but then, it  would consistently boot up and not go dark--a good tradeoff.   

  

 They  have responded to concern about display resolution by shipping a higher  resolution display next month that is a little bigger and, no surprise, costs a  little more, but they will upgrade previous units for a reasonably fair  cost.  The higher resolution, reported to be a good looker, should be  helpful in displaying maps, obstructions, wx, airports, et al.  When that  many details were shown on the lo-res units, readability did become a bit of an  issue.

  

 In  sum, even though not bullet proof (even the certified units aren't), I believe  GRT is an excellent choice and a good value for the offered feature set with  excellent service to back it up.  With that said, there are several  competing systems that are also very good and if the price, aesthetics and  features strike your fancy, they will do well for you also.  With all  the new choices available, life-is-good.

 

Chuck Jensen  

--

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:18 am Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS

At 08:31 PM 1/14/2008 -0500, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

<sam.marlow(at)adelphia.net>



I've been in the aircraft business as long as most people on this list,and 

I've never head as many complaints about any other vender as Blue 

Mountain. Why don't you just blow off the advice of this list,and go ahead 

and buy there product, then tell us were wrong! 

Sam


	




  What we're witnessing here is a "snowstorm" of

  anecdotal data and the attempts by many to deduce

  a "degree of goodness" for a product based on

  analysis of that data.



  In the TC aircraft world, we rely on repeatable

  experiments that put a product through a representative

  set of tests that benchmark performance.

  These tests are completely independent of the

  producer's talents for design, manufacturing and

  customer service.



  Complaints are valuable information but must be

  sorted for relevance to (1) science or (2)

  business model. The world's most elegant product

  is worthless when it cannot be supported by

  quality workmanship and honorable marketing.

  On the other hand, many a marginal and/or

  even dangerous product has gained a marketplace

  toe-hold when manufactured and promoted by

  persuasive individuals. Just watch late night

  TV for a host of examples for the later class

  of merchandise.



  We've all heard less than complimentary reports

  about Blue Mountain. I've received numerous

  stories from knowledgeable system integrators,

  pilots and marketing folks who had nothing

  but good wishes for success of this product. They

  wanted to sell it as a supporting system in their

  own airframes.



  All of these stories are dated. I would hope

  that Blue Mountain's longevity in the marketplace

  has more to do with IMPROVEMENTS to both their

  science and marketing than for an ability to

  squeeze, bottle and sell snake-oil.



  When evaluating the usefulness of anecdotal data

  from the field, one would do well to view that

  data through the filters of reasonableness. Does

  the data item make sense? The data items need to

  be sorted into two piles: (1) science and (2)

  production, marketing and customer service. Finally,

  one is well advised to deduce the story teller's

  intent . . . informative, humorous, persuasive

  or simply hurtful.



  If this sounds like more effort and skill

  than most of us are able to bring to the argument,

  the risk to value for participating in such

  discussions becomes obvious. It's an fundamental

  element of human nature that individuals with unhappy

  experiences will tend toward persuasive words

  intended to hurt. But without knowing the

  simple-ideas which support an individual's

  experience, the intent and value of their words

  is not calculable.



  I hope individuals who wish to contribute

  to the List's collective knowledge and understanding

  will do a bit of pre-filtering for their own words

  before committing them to the archives. Try to be

  informative as to fact and the outcomes of repeatable

  experiments. Avoid passing on information that

  was not observed/experienced first hand.



  Whether you support or disfavor a product or service,

  be specific as to the PERSONAL command of facts

  upon which you've based your opinion.



  Bob . . .

mlas(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:40 am Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS

Chuck,  

   

That has been our experience with the GRT stuff.  Not polished but works very well!  I personally own two EIS systems from GRT based on all the success I have experienced helping other builders and customers.  

   

Mike  

   

--

mlas(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:54 am Post subject: Blue Mountain EFIS

Bob,



I respect your opinion but I must make a distinction between designing

systems vs. purchasing high dollar systems that you have really no

practical way of modifying or changing.  A system where failure is

common vs. occasional.  Most of the issues discussed on this site are

based on simple boiler plate system design that can be tested thoroughly

prior to full use.  My fear is people will add these off the shelf

products using the marketing as fact on units that seem to work and

sometimes do for a short period of time, this leading toward a false

sense of security.  The bottom line is most of what is reported here is

not opinion but fact of failure regard failure with out systematic data

collection.  For example I have experienced more then 20 hard failures

of my BMA system while running side by side with a Chelton non-certified

EFIS and an Advanced Flight System AF engine system with no failures at

all on these unites over a period of 18 months and three hundred hours

of in-flight time.  Just to clarify!



Mike

--

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