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chuck(at)chuckdirect.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:48 pm Post subject: Windows Installation

I have just spent two hours researching info on window  installation and cleanup for the "Ten".  I've learned that acetone is not  the best thing to use (crazing, cracking), mineral spirits leave a "oily"  residue, and alcohol hardly touches Weld On.  Okay then, what to use for  cleanup? 

  

 I glued in one window yesterday.  Not entirely happy  with the results.  Far from 100 per cent flange adhesion, even with modest  weights added per Van's instructions to the window (areas of window  and fiberglass flange not mated, some might call them bubbles?)   Perhaps this is acceptable?  

  

 Is everyone using strips of fiberglass over the exterior  window/fiberglass joint ?  If so, why?  To hold the window in  place,  to make a smoother transition from plexi to fiberglass,   both?

  

 I'm using the stuff Van's recommended for adhesive, Weld-On,  and not much inclined to change to something else unless Van's says so, but this  stuff is hard to handle and harder to clean up.  

  

 I'm not a total rooky at this building stuff, finished one RV9A that turned  out really nice, but I'm at my wits end with these windows.  Any advice  would be appreciated.

 Chuck

   [quote][b]

toaster73(at)embarqmail.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject: Windows Installation

Haven't got to your point yet but maybe try this  stuff to protect the plexi.

  

 http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/discoat4220plexiglass.php

  

 And try this method stolen from Deems Davis website  to hold window in place with a clamping action

  

 http://www.deemsrv10.com/album/Sec%2045%20Cabin%20Doors%20and%20Transparancies/slides/DSC04326.html

  

 Also I believe in sticking with weld-on, because my  quick research shows that it will react with plexi to form a true  bond. Like pvc joint glue. I think somebody tried epoxy and weld on  using test pieces and said the epoxy plexi joint broke with much less force than  the weld-on plexi joint.

  

 Finally I understand the thin strip of glass is  used as a kind of "dry-wall type tape".  It can prevent the joint between  the edge of the fiberglass joggle and the plexi from showing up as a hair line  crack 100 hours down the road.  

 The plexi-fiberglass do not expand and contract the  same so a nice filled and sanded joint will open up over time.  If you lay  a piece of glass over it you may not get that hair line crack. Its a looks  thing.

 Headed down the above path soon.

 -Chris Lucas

 #40072

  

  

 [quote]   ---

jfrjr(at)roadrunner.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:49 pm Post subject: Windows Installation

[quote]   Chuck:  I have completed the four windows and  so    far they have come out well (no flight or weather stress).  I used    epoxy/flox (slow cure) as the adhesive and a strapping system to hold the    windows in place while they cured ( I used 4 on each window). The    strapping was just simple thin cargo straps wrapped around the plane but using    multiple soft blocks (rubber sanding pads) at multiple locations between the    straps and windows to ensure a tight fit at all 360 degrees around the    window.  I had previously doubled taped (electrical) the windows at    the edges----one layer corresponding to the inside rim of the window recess    fiberglass and the second about 1/8 inch outward from the first. After    curing I filled in any remaining gaps between fiberglass and window with a    epoxy/flox/filler mix and then sanded that junction smooth.  (The    electrical tape, if you are careful, can take quite a beating and not be    disturbed.). I then put two layers of fiberglass over the junction----the    first layer being about 1 inch wide and the 2nd maybe 1 1/2 wide but sanded    smooth between layers.  The second layer abutted the outside (top) layer    of tape.  When I was happy with how well the result blended in with the    fuselage I then removed the top layer of tape and very carefully    feathered in the fiberglass on that side.  I will then paint to the    edge of the 2nd layer of tape.  All the above was not my original idea    but a combination of suggestions from various sources  (Dave Saylor,    David Jones, Deems, and others).  Hope this helps.  Jay Rowe #40301    (just finishing FWF)

   [quote]     ---

flysrv10(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:00 am Post subject: Windows Installation

Chuck,

I completed my windows per Van's instruction and at first they came out really nice.  After 275 hrs, some of them are showing the joint between the window and the fiberglass.  It is showing as a crack in the paint, something  I have seen on other RV10s.



If I were to do it again, I would use the Weld-On but add a very thin fiberglass tape to cover the joint.  This (I think) will add a lot of strength to the joint and provide some level of tolerance for imperfect window adhesion.  I would still not relax and do my best to install the windows as if the tape did not exist.

Rob

On Jan 14, 2008, at 6:45 PM, Chuck Weyant wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I have just spent two hours researching info on window installation and cleanup for the "Ten".  I've learned that acetone is not the best thing to use (crazing, cracking), mineral spirits leave a "oily" residue, and alcohol hardly touches Weld On.  Okay then, what to use for cleanup? 

 

I glued in one window yesterday.  Not entirely happy with the results.  Far from 100 per cent flange adhesion, even with modest weights added per Van's instructions to the window (areas of window and fiberglass flange not mated, some might call them bubbles?)  Perhaps this is acceptable?  

 

Is everyone using strips of fiberglass over the exterior window/fiberglass joint ?  If so, why?  To hold the window in place,  to make a smoother transition from plexi to fiberglass,  both?

 

I'm using the stuff Van's recommended for adhesive, Weld-On, and not much inclined to change to something else unless Van's says so, but this stuff is hard to handle and harder to clean up. 

 

I'm not a total rooky at this building stuff, finished one RV9A that turned out really nice, but I'm at my wits end with these windows.  Any advice would be appreciated.

Chuck

 	  Quote: 	
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 [quote][b]

Lew Gallagher

Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 402
Location: Greenville , SC

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:46 am Post subject: Re: Windows Installation

Hey Chris,



I like your sheetrock analogy best.  We are also soon approaching this stage and will go with the cloth strip -- perhaps carbon fiber.  To further the mud joint analogy, I'll probably use a 90 degree die grinder with a 2" quicklock sanding disk and make a shallow depression in the plexi/fiberglass joint (just as edges of sheetrock are tapered) and then fill that back in flush with the tape and glass.



And then (just to mess with the purists) I may feather that with ... Bondo!



Later, - Lew

_________________
non-pilot
crazy about building
NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549
Fly off completed !

tgesele(at)optonline.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:42 am Post subject: Windows Installation

Chuck C

  6nbsp;

  6nbsp; 6nbsp; 6nbsp; 6nbsp; To provide another perspective C I used the weld-on on my -10 windows with mixed results E The first three windows came out fine (rear window + 1 door) E The 4th developed some minor crazing of the plexi around two of the corners where bonded E The windscreen was a complete disaster C the majority of the bonded edge developed cracks up to 1/2 - 2/3 of the was thru the plexi E I did not use any acetone C laquer thinner C MEK C or any other solvents on the plexi and relatively light clamping pressure E The only common theme is that it was getting progressively colder as I did the windows so that may have something to do with it E

  6nbsp;

  6nbsp; One thing I did note when removing the windscreen was that the weld-on 6nbsp;was well bonded 6nbsp; 6nbsp;to the plexi but pealed off the fiberglass relatively easily with a little heat E So C for what it 7s worth C I won 7t be using the weld-on for the new windscreen and will either go with one of the 3M products or epoxy + cotton flox E

  6nbsp;

  6nbsp; Regarding the fiberglass around the perimeter C it supposedly help prevents the cracking in the paint that has shown up in some of the finished -10s E Strictly cosmetic and relatively easy to add E

  6nbsp;

 Good luck C

  6nbsp; Tom Gesele  340473



---

John Ackerman

Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 130
Location: Prescott, AZ

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:22 am Post subject: Windows Installation

Hey, folks

We're coming up on the same decision...



For those who have chosen to use Sika-flex 295 UV, what do you think of it by now? It seems to me like a natural choice for our windows. Does anybody have information to the contrary?



How about experience with 3M 2216?



Marlys and John Ackerman 40458

On Jan 14, 2008, at 4:45 PM, Chuck Weyant wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  I have just spent two hours researching info on window installation and cleanup for the "Ten".  I've learned that acetone is not the best thing to use (crazing, cracking), mineral spirits leave a "oily" residue, and alcohol hardly touches Weld On.  Okay then, what to use for cleanup? 

 

I glued in one window yesterday.  Not entirely happy with the results.  Far from 100 per cent flange adhesion, even with modest weights added per Van's instructions to the window (areas of window and fiberglass flange not mated, some might call them bubbles?)  Perhaps this is acceptable?  

 

Is everyone using strips of fiberglass over the exterior window/fiberglass joint ?  If so, why?  To hold the window in place,  to make a smoother transition from plexi to fiberglass,  both?

 

I'm using the stuff Van's recommended for adhesive, Weld-On, and not much inclined to change to something else unless Van's says so, but this stuff is hard to handle and harder to clean up. 

 

I'm not a total rooky at this building stuff, finished one RV9A that turned out really nice, but I'm at my wits end with these windows.  Any advice would be appreciated.

Chuck

 	  Quote: 	
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indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:41 am Post subject: Windows Installation

I HAVE NEVER USED THIS PRODUCT BUT WHAT IS REALLY PROMISING ABOUT IT IS THAT IT IS MADE FOR ACRYLIC WINDOWS, 

 BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY IT HAS 500% ELONGATION BEFORE BREAKAGE. THIS WILL ALLOW THE PLEXIGLASS TO TRAVEL WHEN IT EXPANDS IN THE HEAT OF THE SUN. OBVIOUSLY, A EXPANSION GAP NEEDS TO BE CREATED  BETWEEN THE CABIN TOP JOGGLE AND THE EDGE OF THE WINDOW.

  

 OVER THE TOP OF THIS, A THIN LAYER OF GLASS CAN COVER THE JOGGLE GAP. OR PERHAPS, SINCE THEY SAY THIS STUFF CAN BE TRIMMED iT COULD BE LEFT UNCOIVERRED AND UNPAINTED IF IT IS THE BLACK MATERIAL. IT WILL JUST LOOK LIKE RUBBER, AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T CRACK IN THE SUNLIGHT (PROBABLY WON'T IF IT SAYS UV IN THE NAME)

  

 JOHN G 409

  

 dO nOT ARCHIVE

 [quote]  From: johnag5b(at)cableone.net

Subject: Re: Windows Installation

Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 09:18:47 -0700

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com



Hey, folks  

 We're coming up on the same decision...

 

 For those who have chosen to use Sika-flex 295 UV, what do you think of it by now? It seems to me like a natural choice for our windows. Does anybody have information to the contrary?

 

 How about experience with 3M 2216?

 

 Marlys and John Ackerman 40458

 

 

 On Jan 14, 2008, at 4:45 PM, Chuck Weyant wrote:    	  Quote: 	
		   I have just spent two hours researching info on window installation and cleanup for the "Ten".  I've learned that acetone is not the best thing to use (crazing, cracking), mineral spirits leave a "oily" residue, and alcohol hardly touches Weld On.  Okay then, what to use for cleanup? 

  

 I glued in one window yesterday.  Not entirely happy with the results.  Far from 100 per cent flange adhesion, even with modest weights added per Van's instructions to the window (areas of window and fiberglass flange not mated, some might call them bubbles?)  Perhaps this is acceptable?  

  

 Is everyone using strips of fiberglass over the exterior window/fiberglass joint ?  If so, why?  To hold the window in place,  to make a smoother transition from plexi to fiberglass,  both?

  

 I'm using the stuff Van's recommended for adhesive, Weld-On, and not much inclined to change to something else unless Van's says so, but this stuff is hard to handle and harder to clean up. 

  

 I'm not a total rooky at this building stuff, finished one RV9A that turned out really nice, but I'm at my wits end with these windows.  Any advice would be appreciated.

 Chuck

 	  Quote: 	
		  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://forums.matronics.com

style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	




get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

p://forums.matronics.com

blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
[b]

gerf(at)gerf.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:15 am Post subject: Windows Installation

I used Sikaflex on my canopy on the RV-9.  It sticks plexi  and fiberglass like rock !! - there are no holes nor rivets in my canopy or  windscreen.  Get some practice with it before you "go live", run some tests  on example pieces, be sure to follow the surface prep instructions, have at  least one extra pair of hands available - once you get started you have to get  finished before the stuff cures, so things move quickly.

  

 Its been in place for a year with no signs of separation - the  unknown, I guess, is the long term.

  

 g



   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John  Gonzalez

Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 9:38 AM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Windows  Installation

 

I HAVE NEVER USED THIS PRODUCT BUT WHAT IS REALLY PROMISING  ABOUT IT IS THAT IT IS MADE FOR ACRYLIC WINDOWS, 

BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY IT HAS  500% ELONGATION BEFORE BREAKAGE. THIS WILL ALLOW THE PLEXIGLASS TO TRAVEL WHEN  IT EXPANDS IN THE HEAT OF THE SUN. OBVIOUSLY, A EXPANSION GAP NEEDS TO BE  CREATED  BETWEEN THE CABIN TOP JOGGLE AND THE EDGE OF THE  WINDOW.

 

OVER THE TOP OF THIS, A THIN LAYER OF GLASS CAN COVER THE  JOGGLE GAP. OR PERHAPS, SINCE THEY SAY THIS STUFF CAN BE TRIMMED iT COULD BE  LEFT UNCOIVERRED AND UNPAINTED IF IT IS THE BLACK MATERIAL. IT WILL JUST LOOK  LIKE RUBBER, AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T CRACK IN THE SUNLIGHT (PROBABLY WON'T IF IT  SAYS UV IN THE NAME)

 

JOHN G 409

 

dO nOT  ARCHIVE

 [quote]      From: johnag5b(at)cableone.net

Subject: Re: Windows    Installation

Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 09:18:47 -0700

To:    rv10-list(at)matronics.com



Hey, folks    

   We're coming up on the same decision...

   

   For those who have chosen to use Sika-flex 295 UV, what do you think of    it by now? It seems to me like a natural choice for our windows. Does    anybody have information to the contrary?

   

   How about experience with 3M 2216?

   

   Marlys and John Ackerman 40458

   

   

   On Jan 14, 2008, at 4:45 PM, Chuck Weyant wrote:        	  Quote: 	
		       I have just spent two hours researching info on window      installation and cleanup for the "Ten".  I've learned that acetone is      not the best thing to use (crazing, cracking), mineral spirits leave a      "oily" residue, and alcohol hardly touches Weld On.  Okay then, what to      use for cleanup? 

      

     I glued in one window yesterday.  Not      entirely happy with the results.  Far from 100 per cent flange      adhesion, even with modest weights added per Van's instructions to the      window (areas of window and fiberglass flange not      mated, some might call them bubbles?)  Perhaps this is      acceptable?  

      

     Is everyone using strips of fiberglass over the exterior      window/fiberglass joint ?  If so, why?  To hold the window in      place,  to make a smoother transition from plexi to      fiberglass,  both?

      

     I'm using the stuff Van's recommended for adhesive,      Weld-On, and not much inclined to change to something else unless Van's says      so, but this stuff is hard to handle and harder to clean      up. 

      

     I'm not a total rooky at this building stuff, finished one RV9A that      turned out really nice, but I'm at my wits end with these windows.  Any      advice would be appreciated.

     Chuck

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get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

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[b]

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: Windows Installation

Sorry to hear of your window development.  Some did not want to hear my post two + years ago as to what was found with Lancair’s and those darned plastic aircraft.  VAN is relatively new to big plastic canopies which led to a discussion on ways to reduce this likelihood.  

   

Deems gave an excellent alternative method.  Jesse who has replaced a windscreen can add first person perspective on both removal, product choice and re-installation.  

   

The adhesive agent, the method of mounting and the cleanliness of the work will all contribute to the final outcome.  No one wants to do this job twice.  A similar job can surface with the improper use of fillers over the countersink head of rivets which secure dissimilar products like aluminum and fiberglass.  Research carefully.  The disband usually takes two to three annual Winter/Summer cycles to fully cure.  Pictures of sunken filler over fasteners (under a $28,000 paint job are available on request).  

   

I encourage a fiberglass cover strip. I strongly encourage epoxy and not bondo (polyester filler) on the products.  

   

The great thing here is that there are so many ways to do this task. Each of us becomes that manufacturer with the end Serviceability of our efforts the result of our planning and research.  My hat is off to Dave Saylor to share his techniques with the RV-10 group by hosting a seminar.  When working with composites, talk to a composite specialist.  When working with aluminum talk to a Vans builder.  

   

John Cox  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Kermanj

 Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 3:57 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Windows Installation  

  

   

Chuck,    

   

    

I completed my windows per Van's instruction and at first they came out really nice.  After 275 hrs, some of them are showing the joint between the window and the fiberglass.  It is showing as a crack in the paint, something  I have seen on other RV10s.  

    

   

    

If I were to do it again, I would use the Weld-On but add a very thin fiberglass tape to cover the joint.  This (I think) will add a lot of strength to the joint and provide some level of tolerance for imperfect window adhesion.  I would still not relax and do my best to install the windows as if the tape did not exist.  

    

   

    

Rob  

    

   

    

       

On Jan 14, 2008, at 6:45 PM, Chuck Weyant wrote:  

  



 

         

I have just spent two hours researching info on window installation and cleanup for the "Ten".  I've learned that acetone is not the best thing to use (crazing, cracking), mineral spirits leave a "oily" residue, and alcohol hardly touches Weld On.  Okay then, what to use for cleanup?   

    

   

    

I glued in one window yesterday.  Not entirely happy with the results.  Far from 100 per cent flange adhesion, even with modest weights added per Van's instructions to the window (areas of window and fiberglass flange not mated, some might call them bubbles?)  Perhaps this is acceptable?    

    

   

    

Is everyone using strips of fiberglass over the exterior window/fiberglass joint ?  If so, why?  To hold the window in place,  to make a smoother transition from plexi to fiberglass,  both?  

    

   

    

I'm using the stuff Van's recommended for adhesive, Weld-On, and not much inclined to change to something else unless Van's says so, but this stuff is hard to handle and harder to clean up.   

    

   

    

I'm not a total rooky at this building stuff, finished one RV9A that turned out really nice, but I'm at my wits end with these windows.  Any advice would be appreciated.  

    

Chuck  

   	  Quote: 	
		  http://forums.matronics.comstyle="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.matronics.com/contribution 	


  

   

  

   

  

     [quote]



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[b]

Jim Berry

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 237
Location: Denver

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:35 am Post subject: Re: Windows Installation

Chuck,



I completed the windows and windscreen with the help of 2 local composite pros who have done a lot of Lancair work. Now that I have seen how the pros do it, it is not nearly so intimidating. We used Hysol EA9360 available from www.aerospace.henkel.com or its dealers. Actually a Loctite product. My understanding is that Hysol is the adhesive Lancair uses for pressurized windows, wings, etc.



After taping the inner surface of the windows with 2 layers of electrical tape we painted the exposed window edge and the outer surface of the cabin flange with Hysol. Then added flox to the Hysol till we had a peanut butter consistency; applied that about 1/8" thick to the flange. We had at least 1 hour working time with the Hysol, so there was no rush. Positioned the window on the flange and clecoed in place with fender washers about every 1.5" The washers are easier than making the al. fingers some have used, and they put the pressure right on the edge of the window where you want it. You want a little squeeze out of the flox both inside and outside. Predrill the holes for the clecos before mixing the Hysol. While one person clecos around the edge of the window, a second person inside carefully scrapes off the squeeze out flush with the edge of the flange. Don't worry about squeeze out on the outside till it cures, when you can grind or chisel off the excess. 

After smoothing the cured Hysol on the outside you will probably have some minor irregularities which can be filled with flox. We applied a 2 bid layer of glass to the outside using a trick I have not seen mentioned here before. Maybe that is because I am the only one who didn't know about it. We positioned 2 layers of electrical tape on the outside of the window so that the outer edge matched the inner edge of the flange per usual. Then temporarily taped a layer of clear painters plastic to the cabin top so that it draped smoothly over the window. With a Sharpie carefully mark the outer edge of the electrical tape so that you have a good template of the window flange. Mark the outer edge of this template where you want the edge of the glass to fall. We made separate pieces for each corner of the window, with additional straight strips connecting the corner pieces.You want to end up with a template about 2-2.5" wide that exactly matches the window flange. Don't cut out the pieces yet. We wound up with 7-8 pieces for each window.

Remove the clear plastic, place it on your cutting table and begin to wet out 2 layers of glass on top of the template. The Sharpie lines will show through. Orient the glass diagonally on the template so that the corner curves cut smoothly. Place a second layer of clear plastic on top of the wetted glass and squeegy(sp) out the excess. Cut out 1 piece of your template, peel off the bottom layer of plastic, and position the wetted cloth on the window. Focus your efforts on getting the cloth positioned exactly up to the edge of the electrical tape. If you take care with this step you will wind up with a nearly finished edge that needs very little clean up.

Take your time with this. Even with the help of guys who have done this many times before we still have 20 man hours in doing all the windows, but they look really slick.



Jim Berry

40482

chuck(at)chuckdirect.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:35 am Post subject: Windows Installation

Hey, thanks guys for all the info.  Think I'll stick with  the Weld On, do more taping in the prep (to cut down on cleanup), and do the  fiberglass strip around the exterior perimeter of the windows.

 Chuck

 [quote]   ---

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: Windows Installation

Jim, an excellent and detailed post.



I would speculate that your Composite Pro buddies educated you that the

use of microballoons will transfer none of the needed stress. And that

flox is a superior thickening and strengthening agent to the adhesive.

A window secured for pressurized use will (should) certainly meet the

needs of RV-10 drivers.



What is even more important than the great finished appearance, is the

elimination of doing it twice or living with the micro fracture lines in

the future (down the road) as a result of less advanced techniques.



John

40600

Do not Archive



--

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:43 pm Post subject: Windows Installation

Marlys and John  

   

We use the 3M 2216 (at the airlines) with great success at adhesion between sheets of stainless steel being bonded over honeycomb composite shelf material when repairing galleys and restrooms.  It has a slow cure time and is not real happy with a cooler than specified ambient air temperature during cure (Closely read the specification sheet).  Once mature, it is rock solid with those two dissimilar products.  One of the disadvantages of the 2216 it has the consistency of honey beckoning for a Thixotrophic additive to turn it into peanut butter for this vertical application.  

   

If you haven’t purchased the product yet, I would give a “Second Motion” to Jim Berry’s recommendation of Hysol EA9360.  There are lots of examples and flight miles logged with the Lancair fleet.  (I can even offer a picture of the delamination of a pressurized IVP window from more than FL200 if you think the adhesive and technique is not that important.)  

   

No opinion on Sika-flex 295 for a couple more years of “in the field” RV-10 reports.  Dave Saylor needs to pipe in here.  

   

Build it Once – Fly Safe – Live Long  

   

John Cox 40600  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Ackerman

 Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 8:19 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Windows Installation  

  

   

Hey, folks    

     

We're coming up on the same decision...  

    

   

    

For those who have chosen to use Sika-flex 295 UV, what do you think of it by now? It seems to me like a natural choice for our windows. Does anybody have information to the contrary?  

    

   

    

How about experience with 3M 2216?  

    

   

    

Marlys and John Ackerman 40458  

    

   

    

   

    

On Jan 14, 2008, at 4:45 PM, Chuck Weyant wrote:    



 

     

I have just spent two hours researching info on window installation and cleanup for the "Ten".  I've learned that acetone is not the best thing to use (crazing, cracking), mineral spirits leave a "oily" residue, and alcohol hardly touches Weld On.  Okay then, what to use for cleanup?   

    

   

    

I glued in one window yesterday.  Not entirely happy with the results.  Far from 100 per cent flange adhesion, even with modest weights added per Van's instructions to the window (areas of window and fiberglass flange not mated, some might call them bubbles?)  Perhaps this is acceptable?    

    

   

    

Is everyone using strips of fiberglass over the exterior window/fiberglass joint ?  If so, why?  To hold the window in place,  to make a smoother transition from plexi to fiberglass,  both?  

    

   

    

I'm using the stuff Van's recommended for adhesive, Weld-On, and not much inclined to change to something else unless Van's says so, but this stuff is hard to handle and harder to clean up.   

    

   

    

I'm not a total rooky at this building stuff, finished one RV9A that turned out really nice, but I'm at my wits end with these windows.  Any advice would be appreciated.  

    

Chuck  

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[b]

planesmith(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject: Windows Installation

I've been playing with a sample of Hysol EA9360, but have not settled on which adhesive I will use, so this is a great discussion. The following link may be of value to others, it's Lancair's chapter on installing the rear window in a Legacy: http://www.lancair.com/Main/builders_only/Legacy%20Manual/Chapter%2025-Aft%20Windows.pdf 



 One difference between the RV10 and a pressurized Lancair IVP is they glue their windows to the inside of the fuselage.

  

 Vern Smith (#324 doors & cabin top)  



  	  Quote: 	
		    Subject: RE: Windows Installation

Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:38:19 -0800

From: johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com



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Marlys and John 

  

We use the 3M 2216 (at the airlines) with great success at adhesion between sheets of stainless steel being bonded over honeycomb composite shelf material when repairing galleys and restrooms.  It has a slow cure time and is not real happy with a cooler than specified ambient air temperature during cure (Closely read the specification sheet).  Once mature, it is rock solid with those two dissimilar products.  One of the disadvantages of the 2216 it has the consistency of honey beckoning for a Thixotrophic additive to turn it into peanut butter for this vertical application. 

  

If you haven’t purchased the product yet, I would give a “Second Motion” to Jim Berry’s recommendation of Hysol EA9360.  There are lots of examples and flight miles logged with the Lancair fleet.  (I can even offer a picture of the delamination of a pressurized IVP window from more than FL200 if you think the adhesive and technique is not that important.) 

  

No opinion on Sika-flex 295 for a couple more years of “in the field” RV-10 reports.  Dave Saylor needs to pipe in here. 

  

Build it Once – Fly Safe – Live Long 

  

John Cox 40600 

    

	
Make distant family not so distant with Windows Vista® + Windows Live™. Start now!

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:31 pm Post subject: Windows Installation

The RV-10 Family is SO Great!.  

   

Thanks Vern  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vernon Smith

 Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 1:59 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Windows Installation  

  

   

I've been playing with a sample of Hysol EA9360, but have not settled on which adhesive I will use, so this is a great discussion. The following link may be of value to others, it's Lancair's chapter on installing the rear window in a Legacy: http://www.lancair.com/Main/builders_only/Legacy%20Manual/Chapter%2025-Aft%20Windows.pdf 

 

 One difference between the RV10 and a pressurized Lancair IVP is they glue their windows to the inside of the fuselage.

  

 Vern Smith (#324 doors & cabin top)  

 

 

       

        

   

  

  

  

       

  

Make distant family not so distant with Windows Vista® + Windows Live™. Start now!  

    [quote]



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KiloPapa

Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 142
Location: Pearblossom, CA

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:07 pm Post subject: Windows Installation

Thanks for the nice writeup.



Kevin

40494

do not archive



---

_________________
Kevin
40494

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bjudge(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:36 am Post subject: Windows Installation

Something to consider on the window installation is rain peeling up the transition from plexi to epoxy on the upper edge of the windscreen.  I have an RV-8 and I thought I had sufficiently scuffed the plexi before laying down the epoxy and glass weave.  October I flew through about an hour's worth of moderate rain and about 70% of the area at the top of the wind screen was delaminated back up to 3/4".  I don't have paint yet so the fix won't be too painful. 



I talked with a lancair builder and they don't really have a good fix and their cruise speeds are much higher.  



I used Sika all the way around my canopy and windscreen with good results so I'm thinking about using he Sika primer to prep the plexi before I lay new glass back down on the damaged area. 



Bill

RV-8, N84WJ

205 hrs.

rv-8.blogspot.com



  [quote][b]

speckter(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:22 am Post subject: Windows Installation

I had the same problem on my Glasair III.  I tried lots of stuff but the only thing that worked is the clear Ureathane tape used on Radomes and leading edges of wings.  Cut a thin strip and wrap it around the windscreen.  

   

Gary   

40274  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Judge

 Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 8:31 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Windows Installation  

  

   

Something to consider on the window installation is rain peeling up the transition from plexi to epoxy on the upper edge of the windscreen.  I have an RV-8 and I thought I had sufficiently scuffed the plexi before laying down the epoxy and glass weave.  October I flew through about an hour's worth of moderate rain and about 70% of the area at the top of the wind screen was delaminated back up to 3/4".  I don't have paint yet so the fix won't be too painful. 

 

 I talked with a lancair builder and they don't really have a good fix and their cruise speeds are much higher.  

 

 I used Sika all the way around my canopy and windscreen with good results so I'm thinking about using he Sika primer to prep the plexi before I lay new glass back down on the damaged area. 

 

 Bill

 RV-8, N84WJ

 205 hrs.

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Jon Reining

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 37

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: Windows Installation

I remember an article in the RVator awhile back about some guy who used suction cups on the inside of the window and wired them to an anchor somewhere in the center of the plane to get added/better pressure on the window.  I know McMaster Carr sells suction cups rated for up to 50 pounds - may place about about 6-8 of the 30 pounders around the window and tie them back to somewhere to really get a good seal...  Seemed like a good idea.  Haven't tried it though.

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