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Firestar project
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lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: Firestar project

 	  JetPilot wrote: 	
		  

Being legal is good, and most of us make every effort to follow the spirit of the law.  But good judgment and safety must always your primary concern.   



So don't let some self righteous individuals tell you to go to an undue amount of work or make your plane less safe, by degrading the performance due to being 6 % overweight. 

Mike 	




I should add that Mike touches on a good point here, and an area where I'd willingly bend the regs (though I still wouldn't openly suggest this to others).



There are cases where rules aren't appropriate and can actually impair safety. the deal with part 103 weight is, arguably, one of them. I.e. removing good metal wheels or a safety belt in order to get at or below 254lbs. 



In a case like this I'm with Mike - being a "little bit pregnant" is the prudent thing to do because it's a safety issue for the plane. 



But that's just me and how I work.....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:39 am Post subject: Firestar project

Good timing on trimming the cable ears. I was just fixing the tailwheel assembly. and one of the steering cables had the thimble all crumpled and twisted. The bare cable had worn a groove in the tube almost all the way to the edge. I brazed a couple of washers on the tube, and would have put the thimbles back the way they were. Nice save, guys.

    John- your carb problem is actually a malfunctioning bilge pump. Check it, and the carp won't get up to the air filter.

                                           Bill Sullivan

 [quote][b]

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject: Firestar Project

Open question for everyone. I have to repair about five small holes in the ailerons. I brought the wing into the living room. I ran Ellery's test of using MEK to double check the finish. Mek would not dissolve the paint, but did dissolve the vinyl glove I was wearing. The paint is Aerothane. I have the book and kit from the Millers, but I would appreciate any and all tips on repairs. I have to use a brush for all stages, as I have nowhere safe to spray isocyanates. The neighborhood is too close to risk airbornes. I am now going down to the drug store for latex gloves. The guy at the hardware store thought his were latex, but they weren't marked. Luckily I only got a couple of pairs.

    I hope I got the right color- Madrid Red. I don't care what kind of light I used before ordering, there were four really close reds.

                                       Bill                                       

 [quote][b]

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:59 pm Post subject: Firestar Project

To answer Richard Girard's question about the hole margins on my forward wing attachment point- the front attachment point appears to be a fabricated piece of junior "I" beam, just under 3" high. The 3 holes are no closer than 1/4" to the edge, and spaced about 1/2" apart. The web is about 5/32" thick, as are the upper and lower flanges. The flanges are about 

  1 1/8" wide. This appears to be plenty of stock for the purpose. I don't know why- maybe the builder had trouble setting the wing angle, or simply wanted them adjustable. I can't tell by looking at or in the holes which one was commonly used. I don't think that it would make a lot of difference, as long as both sides are set the same.

                                                      Bill

 [quote][b]

ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:11 am Post subject: Firestar Project

 

 if you Have aerothane Paint and your sure you can take  a sharp scribe and cut the paint only on the fabric get under the edge of it and  peel it off  Trim the hole up good and even make a patch two inches outside  the hole edge all the way around  if you have a Poly Fiber manual it  explains it all there .

  as far as how to paint without spraying,  I  hope someone else on the list can help you area  to make it look good with  another method of painting without spraying it.

  

 Ellery in Maine 

 do not archive

  In a message dated 2/2/2008 9:19:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  williamtsullivan(at)att.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		       Open question for everyone. I have to repair about five small    holes in the ailerons. I brought the wing into the living room. I ran Ellery's    test of using MEK to double check the finish. Mek would not dissolve the    paint, but did dissolve the vinyl glove I was wearing. The paint is Aerothane.    I have the book and kit from the Millers, but I would appreciate any and all    tips on repairs. I have to use a brush for all stages, as I have nowhere safe    to spray isocyanates. The neighborhood is too close to risk airbornes. I am    now going down to the drug store for latex gloves. The guy at the hardware    store thought his were latex, but they weren't marked. Luckily I only got a    couple of pairs.

     I hope I got the right color- Madrid Red. I don't care what    kind of light I used before ordering, there were four really close reds.

                                          Bill                                          

 	  Quote: 	
		  



="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	




Who's never won?  Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.

  [quote][b]

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 7:11 am Post subject: Firestar Project

Bill, for refinishing, if you're in a relatively warm area, so the paint will flow before it sets,  use a foam roller to apply enough coats to satisfy your eye that it has completely covered the primer. Let it dry and use wet or dry sandpaper to remove any stippling and polish with compound to match the local area.

 

Rick



On Feb 2, 2008 9:56 PM, william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net (williamtsullivan(at)att.net)> wrote:

[quote]   To answer Richard Girard's question about the hole margins on my forward wing attachment point- the front attachment point appears to be a fabricated piece of junior "I" beam, just under 3" high. The 3 holes are no closer than 1/4" to the edge, and spaced about 1/2" apart. The web is about 5/32" thick, as are the upper and lower flanges. The flanges are about 

   1 1/8" wide. This appears to be plenty of stock for the purpose. I don't know why- maybe the builder had trouble setting the wing angle, or simply wanted them adjustable. I can't tell by looking at or in the holes which one was commonly used. I don't think that it would make a lot of difference, as long as both sides are set the same.

                                                       Bill

  	  Quote: 	
		  

	
[b]

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 7:13 am Post subject: Firestar Project

Bill, should have added it's the little 3" foam roller you want. They can be found at any box store and have a nice radius on the edge so the paint feathers out.

Also a warning, if you use Smooth Prime be sure to use adequate protection for skin and respiratory contact unless you are absolutely sure you aren't sensitive to the cross linker. My friend Wayne has gotten so sensitive to it he had to farm out the priming of his LongEZ and even then broke out in blisters whenever he came in contact with any that wasn't completely cured. It could be dry to the touch yet still outgassing and he would get a reaction.

 

Rick

On Feb 3, 2008 8:57 AM, Richard Girard <jindoguy(at)gmail.com (jindoguy(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote] Bill, for refinishing, if you're in a relatively warm area, so the paint will flow before it sets,  use a foam roller to apply enough coats to satisfy your eye that it has completely covered the primer. Let it dry and use wet or dry sandpaper to remove any stippling and polish with compound to match the local area.

  

Rick

On Feb 2, 2008 9:56 PM, william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net (williamtsullivan(at)att.net)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		     To answer Richard Girard's question about the hole margins on my forward wing attachment point- the front attachment point appears to be a fabricated piece of junior "I" beam, just under 3" high. The 3 holes are no closer than 1/4" to the edge, and spaced about 1/2" apart. The web is about 5/32" thick, as are the upper and lower flanges. The flanges are about 

    1 1/8" wide. This appears to be plenty of stock for the purpose. I don't know why- maybe the builder had trouble setting the wing angle, or simply wanted them adjustable. I can't tell by looking at or in the holes which one was commonly used. I don't think that it would make a lot of difference, as long as both sides are set the same.

                                                        Bill

  	  Quote: 	
		  

	
	




 



[b]

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: Firestar Project

I cleaned up the first hole. Only trouble was I didn't use a sharp enough scribe- I was afraid to damage the fabric. Now that I know, it will go easier. Foam roller is a good tip- I think I have one.

    I just started getting the live version of the List. Got tired of waiting.

                                                Bill

 [quote][b]

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:13 am Post subject: Firestar Project

I started patching the small holes in the wings. I did as Ellery recommended, and my only comment is to make sure the scribe is sharp, and drag at an angle. I was worried about the strength of the Dacron, so I was cautious at first. Also, I had never used the MEK for anything and did not know the evaporative rate. Turns out it is not a worry. I trimmed torn material from the hole with a small pair of scissors, and used a pad of paper towel about 2" square and 4 layers thick for the MEK. It takes a couple of minutes to soften the glue, so be patient. I used a pocket knife with a rounded blade to pick the paint off. First hole went slow, and the other two went right along. I put the glue on the wing and let it set up, held the patch in place and moistened with MEK on one end. Let it harden, stretch, and keep going. I love this stuff. Another tip- let somebody else take the candy thermometer out of the packaging. Then you can blame them when it drops on the  floor.

                                                 Bill Sullivan

 [quote][b]

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:49 pm Post subject: Firestar project

Another item for beginners: I heat shrank 3 patches today, each about 6" square. My first time on this. Even without coatings, they are nice and tight- they feel just as good as anywhere else on the aileron. I used a Black and Decker iron, and calibrated with a candy thermometer. I didn't have heat sink compound, so I used a pad made of a folded bath towel covered by 4 layers of paper towels. I angled it so that the tip of the thermometer was against the iron, and almost no air got in. Worked great, but I was cautious and kept the heat a couple of degrees low. I found out the number scale on the iron has nothing to do with the temperature. Ironed with the tip only, and took my time. First shrink smoothed out the glue and edge real nice, and tightened up quite a bit. Second time got it nice and firm. Nothing to be afraid of, but take your time. Took a little over an hour, working casually. Can't work on it Tuesday, life is getting in the way. Keep the advice  coming guys- I do appreciate it very much.

                                                       Bill

 [quote][b]

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:23 am Post subject: Firestar project

I got a new tail wheel from Kolb, and put it in the tail wheel carrier. When I tried to put the carrier in the suspension yoke, the wheel hits the lower flange of the yoke. I will have to grind the flange to fit, and install the pivot bolt from the bottom up. There is enough stock, so strength is not a problem. Then I will have to re-install the wheel and axle shaft. The new wheel appears to be the same as the old- casting marks, etc. Maybe the builder turned the wheel down to fit? Does the builder have to make the carrier from scratch, out of tubing? Mine appears to be well made, maybe factory. Were the original wheels five inch, or smaller? Anyone know?

                                               Bill Sullivan

 [quote][b]

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:11 am Post subject: Firestar project

I just looked at the picture that was posted of the Ultrastar, photo taken from the rear. I noticed that it has the same tail wheel brackets I have on the Firestar, but has a different wheel. It has a red wheel, and more room. Mine is black, and fresh from Kolb- a five inch. Is the red one stock, and what diameter is it?

                                       Bill

 [quote][b]

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:14 am Post subject: Firestar project

Bill, Looks like a scooter wheel. Here's a pic of the stock one from my Mk.3

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:15 am Post subject: Firestar project

Sent too soon. It's 5" in diameter, fine print says it's made in Sherbrooke, Quebec, Canada. You can see the clearance to the swivel bolt. I measured the TW on the FS and it's the same as this.



Rick

 

On Feb 6, 2008 9:10 AM, Richard Girard <jindoguy(at)gmail.com (jindoguy(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote] Bill, Looks like a scooter wheel. Here's a pic of the stock one from my Mk.3.



Rick

On Feb 6, 2008 7:05 AM, william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net (williamtsullivan(at)att.net)> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		    I just looked at the picture that was posted of the Ultrastar, photo taken from the rear. I noticed that it has the same tail wheel brackets I have on the Firestar, but has a different wheel. It has a red wheel, and more room. Mine is black, and fresh from Kolb- a five inch. Is the red one stock, and what diameter is it?

                                         Bill



  	  Quote: 	
		  

	




	




 



[b]

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:18 pm Post subject: Firestar project

I got the tailwheel assembly all together. Had to grind the lower strut pivot, and install the pivot bolt up from the bottom. I had to grind the head of a grade 8 bolt to round it off for wheel clearance, and cut a screwdriver slot in it. The steering cables were no problem, and I put some tension on the wheel shimmy springs. 

    First coat of Poly Brush on the aileron patches. Wish I had cut the fabric a little straighter. The new wings appear to be a newer design than the old ones, or a little different. The previous owner had never tried to fold the wings. The new wings came in with a shorter distance between the attachment points. He took a blank extended "u-joint" and drilled the holes to fit. Mounts fine, but did not fold. Turns out the old ones had front and rear holes on the same plane, and the new ones were mounted with the rear lug mounted with a vertical bolt. The new wings also seem to be sturdier at the rear attachment- fatter  hardware. I will fit and change the wing attachments when I have better weather.

    Does anyone know when they switched dimensions and hardware? It might help me date this thing.

                                 Bill sullivan

 [quote][b]

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:38 am Post subject: Firestar project

Progress on the old Firestar-

    The patching of hole in the ailerons is coming along nicely. I am letting everything gas off for a few days before putting the Aerothane on the first wing. I do have a tip on sanding. I had a couple of lumps where coats of product had sagged after being brushed on, and were difficult to sand. I used a sheet rock sponge from Home Depot- I think it was coarse on one side, and medium on the other. It was stiff enough to use just the edge and corner to remove just the lumps. Came out pretty good for a first time. My trouble is that I can't work level- the wing is on it's leading edge against the living room wall. Color coat goes on Saturday.

    Disregard all my previous comments on weight. I found a piece of paper from where I weighed the plane without wings, and compared it to the weight with them. The left wheel only gained 3 pounds after the wing was put on, and the right gained 66 pounds. The tail  gained 16. I guess the back yard is not as level as it looked. When the snow goes away, I will do it again by weighing on a leveled board. The wife is going to get a new bathroom scale for her birthday.

    Can anyone give me any info on the Kolb KXP? That is what the wings are off of, and they are easily adaptable to my airframe. I tried the web, and came up dry. Kolb told me that the easy way was to mount them 2 1/2" rearward, and tweak the hardware. Weight and balance would not be critical. What did the KXP weigh?

                                               Bill Sullivan

                                                Old Firestar

 [quote][b]

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:24 am Post subject: Firestar project

Bill, I am going to go out on a limb here but I think you deserve it.   You need to go find a Firefly or do everything you can to make yours like a  Firefly. The problem with trying to modify what you have to comply with part 103  weight is that you are starting with components that are too heavy. From what I  know , even the cage is too heavy to start with.

 Your other option is to build the plane the way you want and plan to  register it EAB. But from what I remember of this topic that option may be  gone.

 I think that this topic got sidelined by a long discussion of how You may  or may not need to be Legal and lost sight  of the real issue.

 I called TNK this morning and checked the weight of a bare Firefly  cage.      28 lbs

 If your cage is much more than that you will have a difficult time meeting  103 parameters.

 If anyone wants to renew the old "You do not need to be legal thing" I  would suggest they start a new topic and not distract from what Bill is trying  to accomplish.

  

 Good luck with your project Bill and let us know how you make out. There  are several other guys out there in your shoes.

  

 Steve

 Firefly 007

  

  In a message dated 2/15/2008 7:39:00 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  williamtsullivan(at)att.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Can anyone give me any info on the Kolb KXP? That is what the wings are    off of, and they are easily adaptable to my airframe. I tried the web, and    came up dry. Kolb told me that the easy way was to mount them 2 1/2" rearward,    and tweak the hardware. Weight and balance would not be critical. What did the    KXP weigh?

                                                   Bill Sullivan

                                                   Old Firestar

	




The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards.  AOL Music takes you there.

  [quote][b]

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:48 am Post subject: Firestar Project

The first wing has been patched and painted. As usual, everybody guessed wrong on the paint chip chart. Oh, well- it's red. I painted it with the foam roller, as advised, and it came out with a very rough finish- like hundreds of little bumps. I think I should not have added thinner when rolling it. No runs or sags, though. I will try something different on the second wing. The rear wing attachment point has a rather massive removable lug- 7 ounces on the fish scale- that resembles a Chevy wrist pin with a casting on the end. The original wings have a piece of tubing welded to another-apparently one piece angling through the wing. About 1/8"wall where the u-joint bolts on. I have all kinds of stock to grind away, and it will still leave double the safety margin. I can then use the original u-joint.

    For anyone folding Kolb wings- my wings have a built-in jack socket near the end to hold the wing up while assembling. A spring loaded 72" shower  curtain rod from Wal-Mart fits right over it, when I took the rubber off the end. One hand expandable, too. I will make a male end for it to fit inside the socket. It spins open and closed by itself, and has a spring loaded cushion inside. I was throwing the old one away when I walked by the wing and noticed it. My wife says a new one is about $11.

                                       Bill Sullivan

                                       Firestar

 [quote][b]

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:45 am Post subject: Re: Firestar project

William,



You do not want your wings to be very different from one another.  Having wings that are slightly different could cause a condition where one wing stalls earlier than the other, or behaves differently in flight, neither would be good.    In other words, a stall could turn into a spin if both wings are not the same.  On a Kolb, I would guess that just a difference in the texture of the paint between one wing and another will not make a noticeable difference, but I am not sure.  Just be careful when you test fly it.  As a general rule, keep the wings as close to each other in properties as you can.



One other thing I meant to tell you a while ago before the discussion got sidetracked, on your weight, most non professional, non digital scales have large errors at ultralight weights, 15 pounds or 6 % off would be a common error in most scales at the weights you are dealing with.   I would recommend you find, or borrow a good digital scale and know exactly what the weight really is before doing to much work on weight reduction.  



Mike Bigelow

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Firestar project

One other thought on your weight.  If when all is said and done, you are still slightly overweight, you have a good legal option.  You are allowed 24 pounds extra weight if your ultralight is equipped with a BRS.  A softpack BRS weighs 18 pounds, now you have an extra legal 6 pounds you can have on your plane.   



This way, you are safer in two respects, you don't have to shave off structure to the point where your plane becomes structurally weak, and you have the added safety margin of having a BRS.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

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