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Tefzel dielectric strength

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shoskins(at)MCHSI.COM
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:45 am Post subject: Tefzel dielectric strength

I am installing a strobe system with a 50 watt power supply from Nova.

 The system comes with a fairly heavy shielded 3-wire 18AWG cable that

has 300V printed on the jacket.  It does not appear to be tefzell

coated.  (I think it is mostly used in automotive applications, such

as police and fire vehicles).



Due to space constraints, I am unable the pass this thick cable

through the openings in my wing.  However, the shielded 3-wire 22AWG,

from B&C will do the trick.



What is my risk for using the 22AWG vs. the 18 AWG?



Thanks



Sam Hoskins  Quickie Q-200

Murphysboro, IL

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:33 am Post subject: Re: Tefzel dielectric strength

Sam, I would like to try to answer your question, but I am not sure

I understand it.  What does dielectric strength have to do it.

Gauge size of wire determines voltage drop across its length

Splicing in a short run of 22g will introduce 6 extra connections to reduce

reliability (but for a strobe, realistically, who cares!)



Is this cable, I presume the hot side of the strobe power, i.e., so the voltage is 500-1000 or so.  Most insulation would be just fine.  Dielectric

puncture is not only dependent on the material constant be also the thickness

_________________
Ira N224XS

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:52 am Post subject: Tefzel dielectric strength

At 09:42 AM 2/15/2008 -0600, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



I am installing a strobe system with a 50 watt power supply from Nova.

  The system comes with a fairly heavy shielded 3-wire 18AWG cable that

has 300V printed on the jacket.  It does not appear to be tefzell

coated.  (I think it is mostly used in automotive applications, such

as police and fire vehicles).



Due to space constraints, I am unable the pass this thick cable

through the openings in my wing.  However, the shielded 3-wire 22AWG,

from B&C will do the trick.



What is my risk for using the 22AWG vs. the 18 AWG?


	


   The wire supplied with strobe kits is "Beldfoil" shielded

   trio of PVC insulated wires. This is a grand-fathered wire

   that was the best we could buy in 1967. Indeed, it's

   quite suitable for this task and should not be held a

   arm's length just because someone holds their nose over

   it.



   We did some calculations several years ago about the

   potential for reduced light output for having switched

   to 22AWG wires. It may have been so long ago that the

   discussion was pre-matronics . . . on Compuserve's

   AVSIG bulletin board!



   The consensus was that it would probably be difficult

   to measure the difference and you probably wouldn't "see"

   it.



   I think several folks tried it and reported satisfactory

   performance. It would be REALLY interesting to wire up

   a kit of strobes with the heads separated by a distance

   of 30 feet or so. Wire the right side with 18AWG and

   the other with 22AWG. Stand off about a mile and see

   if the observer can perceive any difference in the two

   flashes.



   If someone would loan me their kit of strobe goodies,

   I'll go do the experiment. I'll get a group of observers

   unaware of which side is small wire to tell me if they

   think one is noticeably different from the other.



   Bob . . .

        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------

Neal.George(at)hurlburt.a
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:45 am Post subject: Tefzel dielectric strength

Bob - 



You can use mine, if they ever come back from Whelen.



Neal

   If someone would loan me their kit of strobe goodies,

   I'll go do the experiment. I'll get a group of observers

   unaware of which side is small wire to tell me if they

   think one is noticeably different from the other.



   Bob . . .

        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:55 pm Post subject: Tefzel dielectric strength

At 01:42 PM 2/15/2008 -0600, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

605TES/TSI" <Neal.George(at)Hurlburt.AF.MIL>



Bob -



You can use mine, if they ever come back from Whelen.



Neal


	


   Okay, let's plan on it. It would be a short evening

   of fun work to do the experiment. I'm only a few miles

   from quiet country roads. No hurry . . .it's not going

   to be warm enough to be enjoyable for a few more

   weeks.



   Bob. . .

shoskins(at)MCHSI.COM
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject: Tefzel dielectric strength

That sounds like logical information.  What about the 300V rating on

the wire?  Would the tefzel be similar?  Here is the wire at B&C:

http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?8X358218#s906-3-22



Sam



On Feb 15, 2008 12:49 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 At 09:42 AM 2/15/2008 -0600, you wrote:



 >

 >

 >I am installing a strobe system with a 50 watt power supply from Nova.

 >  The system comes with a fairly heavy shielded 3-wire 18AWG cable that

 >has 300V printed on the jacket.  It does not appear to be tefzell

 >coated.  (I think it is mostly used in automotive applications, such

 >as police and fire vehicles).

 >

 >Due to space constraints, I am unable the pass this thick cable

 >through the openings in my wing.  However, the shielded 3-wire 22AWG,

 >from B&C will do the trick.

 >

 >What is my risk for using the 22AWG vs. the 18 AWG?



    The wire supplied with strobe kits is "Beldfoil" shielded

    trio of PVC insulated wires. This is a grand-fathered wire

    that was the best we could buy in 1967. Indeed, it's

    quite suitable for this task and should not be held a

    arm's length just because someone holds their nose over

    it.



    We did some calculations several years ago about the

    potential for reduced light output for having switched

    to 22AWG wires. It may have been so long ago that the

    discussion was pre-matronics . . . on Compuserve's

    AVSIG bulletin board!



    The consensus was that it would probably be difficult

    to measure the difference and you probably wouldn't "see"

    it.



    I think several folks tried it and reported satisfactory

    performance. It would be REALLY interesting to wire up

    a kit of strobes with the heads separated by a distance

    of 30 feet or so. Wire the right side with 18AWG and

    the other with 22AWG. Stand off about a mile and see

    if the observer can perceive any difference in the two

    flashes.



    If someone would loan me their kit of strobe goodies,

    I'll go do the experiment. I'll get a group of observers

    unaware of which side is small wire to tell me if they

    think one is noticeably different from the other.



    Bob . . .

         ----------------------------------------)

         ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

         ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

         ( appearance of being right . . .       )

         (                                       )

         (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ----------------------------------------

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject: Re: Tefzel dielectric strength

OK Bob,



Just remember that the human optical receiver system uses a log-sensitive

scale, so even a doubling of intensity (double the number of photons)

would be imperceptible.  It would probably be easier to just measure the voltage spike on scope with the appropriate probe (admittedly not as much

fun)

_________________
Ira N224XS

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:16 pm Post subject: Tefzel dielectric strength

At 04:50 PM 2/15/2008 -0800, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



OK Bob,



Just remember that the human optical receiver system uses a log-sensitive

scale, so even a doubling of intensity (double the number of photons)

would be imperceptible.  It would probably be easier to just measure the 

voltage spike on scope with the appropriate probe (admittedly not as much

fun)


	


   But the 'real' question is not wether some techno-wienie can

   measure the differences on a visual attention-getting/warning

   system . . . but whether the guy expected to see and react

   to it can see a difference. I plan to do both.



   Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:33 pm Post subject: Tefzel dielectric strength

At 05:21 PM 2/15/2008 -0600, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



That sounds like logical information.  What about the 300V rating on

the wire?  Would the tefzel be similar?  Here is the wire at B&C:

http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?8X358218#s906-3-22


	


   I don't recall any of the tefzel wires being rated at less

   than 600v. You can check through the listings for 22759 in

   ETFE in the catalog at:



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Wire/Standard_Wire_and_Cable/Std_Wire_Cable.pdf



   I suspect B&C's shielded trio is 22759/16 or 22759/34

   both of which are 600v insulations.



   Bob . . .

shoskins(at)MCHSI.COM
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:14 am Post subject: Tefzel dielectric strength

Sounds great, Bob.  Big help!  Thanks!



Sam Hoskins

Murphysboro, IL



On Feb 15, 2008 9:29 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 At 05:21 PM 2/15/2008 -0600, you wrote:



 >

 >

 >That sounds like logical information.  What about the 300V rating on

 >the wire?  Would the tefzel be similar?  Here is the wire at B&C:

 >http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?8X358218#s906-3-22



    I don't recall any of the tefzel wires being rated at less

    than 600v. You can check through the listings for 22759 in

    ETFE in the catalog at:



 http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Wire/Standard_Wire_and_Cable/Std_Wire_Cable.pdf



    I suspect B&C's shielded trio is 22759/16 or 22759/34

    both of which are 600v insulations.



    Bob . . .

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:04 am Post subject: Tefzel dielectric strength

rampil wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 OK Bob,



 Just remember that the human optical receiver system uses a log-sensitive

 scale, so even a doubling of intensity (double the number of photons)

 would be imperceptible.  It would probably be easier to just measure the voltage spike on scope with the appropriate probe (admittedly not as much

 fun)



 --------

 Ira N224XS

And if you can't see the difference, why not go 'lighter'?
	




It would be advisable for builders to remember the same thing when they 

get all over stimulated by the thought of going from a 50W halogen to a 

75W halogen for their landing lights, etc etc etc.



Charlie

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