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Vertical roll

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fougapilot

Joined: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 89
Location: Flat on my back with minimum airspeed

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:37 am Post subject: Vertical roll

Folks,



I remember reading in an very very old copy of "Warbird Flyers" (the predecessor to RedAlert) about someone doing a vertical roll with a CJ.



Does anyone here ever did one and would like to share their tips/techniques?



I know, I know the Yak can do it...bla, bla, bla. I don't want to fuel the already heated who's better discussion, just looking for tips on how to fly MY airplane better.  



Thanks,



Dan

f4ffm2(at)adelphia.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:28 am Post subject: Vertical roll

Hi Dan,



      I think that the CJ should do a very nice vertical roll.   The  

main thing you must do is to be sure the nose is straight down before  

applying aileron.



Best regards,



Roger_____________________________________________

On Mar 12, 2008, at 6:37 AM, fougapilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Folks,



 I remember reading in an very very old copy of "Warbird  

 Flyers" (the predecessor to RedAlert) about someone doing a  

 vertical roll with a CJ.



 Does anyone here ever did one and would like to share their tips/ 

 techniques?



 I know, I know the Yak can do it...bla, bla, bla. I don't want to  

 fuel the already heated who's better discussion, just looking for  

 tips on how to fly MY airplane better. [Laughing]



 Thanks,



 Dan





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169218#169218

jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:09 am Post subject: Vertical roll

Perhaps it might help to trim for 0 G 

In that way,when you go vertical, it's easier to stay on the line.

Jan



[quote] --

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:59 am Post subject: Vertical roll

On Mar 12, 2008, at 6:37 AM, fougapilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Folks,



 I remember reading in an very very old copy of "Warbird Flyers" (the  

 predecessor to RedAlert) about someone doing a vertical roll with a  

 CJ.



 Does anyone here ever did one and would like to share their tips/ 

 techniques?



 I know, I know the Yak can do it...bla, bla, bla. I don't want to  

 fuel the already heated who's better discussion, just looking for  

 tips on how to fly MY airplane better. [Laughing]


	


How many degrees of roll do you want? I think you would be very hard  

pressed to reach 360 degrees of roll on an up-line before running out  

of airspeed. I have done partial rolls (90 degrees and occasionally  

180 degrees) but one needs to maintain enough airspeed that the rudder  

still works. With the CJ that is pretty tough.



--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

fougapilot

Joined: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 89
Location: Flat on my back with minimum airspeed

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:54 am Post subject: Re: Vertical roll

Ideally, one would like to do a complete 360 on the up line, but one is also realistic about one's airplane's limits.



I guess the best way to explore this capability would be with adding a 1/4 turn on the down line of a hammer head. Then add 1/2 a turn and finally do the same on the up line. Just wondered if anyone had gone through the process before and could point the traps for me.



Thanks,



Dan

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:49 pm Post subject: Vertical roll

Suspect inverted flat spin would be one of them. But, that exists with any

aircraft the you take into the vertical and run it out of energy while at

the same time placing a rolling moment on it. Particularly if the torsional

roll is opposite of the P factor. The F-16 does not like that at all! FWIW.

Viperdoc



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:55 pm Post subject: Vertical roll

I'm curious... And this is kind of off the subject line.  I infer from what Brian said that the rudder control on a CJ is not all that powerful.  I do not know this, I have never flown a CJ in my life, so I am not bad mouthing anything.  However, I am curious how many pilots here have worked with the elevator doing humpty-bumps on the vertical line?  



As far as vertical rolls go, the real trick of these is to... Well... To get VERTICAL in the first place.  Step two is to learn how to watch your wingtips and learn how to use your rudder to KEEP the vertical line by comparing wingtip placement compared to the horizon.  A perfect vertical roll is something you kind of feel in your butt when you get it really nailed.  Sadly, doing rolls going down is a totally different experience than doing them going up.  A lot of that has to do with where you end up focusing your eyes.  



Brian mentions maintaining enough airspeed that the rudder still works in a CJ.  Being the nit-picker that I am, in a true hammerhead, you do not have enough airspeed for the rudder to work at all, or the ailerons for that matter.  What gives the rudder control authority at all is the fact that the engine is creating air flow past the rudder giving it enough control authority to commence the hammerhead.  A true hammerhead is a pivot on a point with very little forward aircraft motion, and if done perfectly... About zero forward energy.  If you start a hammerhead too early with forward speed, you will ARC through the turn and not pivot.  Again, knowing nothing about a CJ, I differ to people who have flown it to know what is necessary to do what.  That said, in most aerobatic aircraft that I have flown, I practice zero airspeed recoveries on the vertical line.  Anyone that decides to attempt a vertical roll is probably going to sooner or later run out of airspeed while still in the vertical.  Contrary to some belief, airplanes don't really like to tail slide.  If you get into the vertical and realize you have run out of airspeed and ideas at about the same time, there are many thoughts on how to recover, from letting go of everything, to many other ways.  My personal way is to try and force the hammerhead and leave power on.  However if you really are out of ideas and totally unsure of what to do next, I would pull the power to idle and hold it there.  Neutralize everything and then just hang on for the ride.  In many cases, it is just fun to do that and see what happens anyway.  It is a great confidence builder to know that the airplane will recover itself even after you have run out of great ideas.  It is life preserving to be damn sure your aircraft is within CG limits before doing this by the way.  



On the same topic is a humpty-bump when you go up in a vertical line and use elevator to more or less... Half loop it, right over the top, and then head straight down again.  The interesting thing here is the speed that you can do this, which in many cases is much less than you might imagine.  There is a trick.  You start this maneuver on a vertical up line, and then pull into a half loop ending up going straight down, hold the line, then recover.  On the second attempt, hold the vertical line a little longer... Lose more airspeed, and continue as before.  Do it again, even LESS airspeed.



Sooner or later you will slow to the point that when you pull back on the stick, you will feel it become loose in your hands... Which at this point you have actually detached the air flow over the surface of the elevator.  Quickly push the stick forward again, and then pull it back again ... Once more you will get some aircraft movement and then it will stop as the stick comes loose in your hands.  Do this, in what looks like a rapid push forward, a pull back, then a rapid push forward again... In a very fast kind of pumping motion.  What you are doing is pulling back to airflow detachment, then pushing it forward to re-attach air flow and then pulling back until it breaks flow again, and then repeating.  This can allow you to pull over the top of a vertical line and regain a downward line at a much slower speed than you would have ever believed possible.  Sergei Boriak taught me this.  It works.  



I usually limit my input to electrical stuff.  I am not a really great aerobatic pilot... But I hang out with some really good ones!    



Mark Bitterlich

N50YK

--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:25 pm Post subject: Vertical roll

Just for discussion sake Doc, you will never have that happen in the 50

on the up line if you just remember to pull all power to idle.. And I

mean REALLY all the way to idle and then just center everything and have

slight back pressure.  Slight ... Back... Pressure.  It might end up in

a spin, but never flat, and it has never gone inverted on me.  



Mark

--

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:48 pm Post subject: Vertical roll

On Mar 12, 2008, at 12:54 PM, fougapilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Ideally, one would like to do a complete 360 on the up line, but one  

 is also realistic about one's airplane's limits.



 I guess the best way to explore this capability would be with adding  

 a 1/4 turn on the down line of a hammer head. Then add 1/2 a turn  

 and finally do the same on the up line. Just wondered if anyone had  

 gone through the process before and could point the traps for me.


	


Spend some time doing hammerheads. (Well, you can't actually do a  

hammerhead with the CJ6A but you know what I mean.) You are going to  

learn where you run out of rudder. If you wait too long the airplane  

will not pivot around the yaw axis. It will sort of cock off to the  

side and then sit there. At that point you need to get the nose moving  

toward the horizon using pitch as the elevator is still effective.



Once you are comfortable with knowing where that point is you can roll  

the aircraft until you get there.



If you find yourself without airspeed and on a vertical up-line, I  

find that it is easier to get the CJ to fall over on its back than to  

go nose down.



I also discovered that if you wait too long you will discover how the  

CJ does a tail-slide. I know I did. My recovery was to close the  

throttle, neutralize the rudder, suck the stick back into my lap, and  

wait for it to rotate nose-down around the pitch axis. It did a very  

nice tail slide for a bit. No I don't recommend trying this at home.



--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

jland(at)popeandland.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:51 pm Post subject: Vertical roll

It would be almost impossible to make the CJ flat spin inverted without

serious skill- It's hard enough to make them spin at all.......



I don't think Alex has ever gotten a "full" roll on an up line- it would

certainly require exceeding redline before the pull.



You can see a 1/4 roll on the upline here- (plus 8 sided loop, roll on the

top of a loop, 1/2 cubans, hammers, etc....)



http://www.landaerosports.com/content/view/28/46/



Check out the CJ video.



Jay

[quote] From: "Roger Kemp M.D." <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com>

 Reply-To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 16:46:28 -0500

 To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

 Subject: RE: Re: Vertical roll

 

 

 

 Suspect inverted flat spin would be one of them. But, that exists with any

 aircraft the you take into the vertical and run it out of energy while at

 the same time placing a rolling moment on it. Particularly if the torsional

 roll is opposite of the P factor. The F-16 does not like that at all! FWIW.

 Viperdoc

 

 

 

 --

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:01 pm Post subject: Vertical roll

On Mar 12, 2008, at 2:52 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,  

MALS-14 64E wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>



 I'm curious... And this is kind of off the subject line.  I infer  

 from what Brian said that the rudder control on a CJ is not all that  

 powerful.


	


That is correct.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Brian mentions maintaining enough airspeed that the rudder still  

 works in a CJ.  Being the nit-picker that I am, in a true  

 hammerhead, you do not have enough airspeed for the rudder to work  

 at all, or the ailerons for that matter.

 What gives the rudder control authority at all is the fact that the  

 engine is creating air flow past the rudder giving it enough control  

 authority to commence the hammerhead.  A true hammerhead is a pivot  

 on a point with very little forward aircraft motion, and if done  

 perfectly... About zero forward energy.  If you start a hammerhead  

 too early with forward speed, you will ARC through the turn and not  

 pivot.


	


Precisely. This is how a "hammerhead" must be flown in the CJ6A in  

order to perform it. I start the turn at about 40 kts indicated  

(actually I just feel the right point) and have to hold forward stick  

and outside aileron to get the aircraft to turn around the inside  

wingtip with any roll.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Again, knowing nothing about a CJ, I differ to people who have flown  

 it to know what is necessary to do what.  That said, in most  

 aerobatic aircraft that I have flown, I practice zero airspeed  

 recoveries on the vertical line.  Anyone that decides to attempt a  

 vertical roll is probably going to sooner or later run out of  

 airspeed while still in the vertical.  Contrary to some belief,  

 airplanes don't really like to tail slide.


	


And some, like the CJ6A, are not designed for the tail loads that can  

come of it.



 	  Quote: 	
		   If you get into the vertical and realize you have run out of  

 airspeed and ideas at about the same time, there are many thoughts  

 on how to recover, from letting go of everything, to many other  

 ways.  My personal way is to try and force the hammerhead and leave  

 power on.


	


You can't force the hammerhead in the CJ. The only thing that is still  

working is the elevator so you have to force the rotation in pitch.  

Once you get the nose falling through, you can get the power off,  

neutralize the controls, and recover once the nose is well below the  

horizon and airspeed is starting to build again.



 	  Quote: 	
		   However if you really are out of ideas and totally unsure of what to  

 do next, I would pull the power to idle and hold it there.


	


That is what I recommend too.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Neutralize everything and then just hang on for the ride.


	


Ah, we found a similar approach in this.



 	  Quote: 	
		   In many cases, it is just fun to do that and see what happens anyway.


	


This is pretty safe with the CJ6A too. It is a very forgiving airframe.



 	  Quote: 	
		   It is a great confidence builder to know that the airplane will  

 recover itself even after you have run out of great ideas.  It is  

 life preserving to be damn sure your aircraft is within CG limits  

 before doing this by the way.



 On the same topic is a humpty-bump when you go up in a vertical line  

 and use elevator to more or less... Half loop it, right over the  

 top, and then head straight down again.  The interesting thing here  

 is the speed that you can do this, which in many cases is much less  

 than you might imagine.  There is a trick.  You start this maneuver  

 on a vertical up line, and then pull into a half loop ending up  

 going straight down, hold the line, then recover.  On the second  

 attempt, hold the vertical line a little longer... Lose more  

 airspeed, and continue as before.  Do it again, even LESS airspeed.


	


Ah, that is my last-ditch recovery from a botched hammerhead. And it  

is fun to do. The CJ has elevator authority right to the very end so  

you can always get it to go nose down that way. But if your line is  

not perfectly vertical (alpha not zero), you will have to feel for  

which way it wants to go. Sometimes it isn't obvious and you need to  

reverse the pitch input.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Sooner or later you will slow to the point that when you pull back  

 on the stick, you will feel it become loose in your hands... Which  

 at this point you have actually detached the air flow over the  

 surface of the elevator.  Quickly push the stick forward again, and  

 then pull it back again ... Once more you will get some aircraft  

 movement and then it will stop as the stick comes loose in your  

 hands.  Do this, in what looks like a rapid push forward, a pull  

 back, then a rapid push forward again... In a very fast kind of  

 pumping motion.  What you are doing is pulling back to airflow  

 detachment, then pushing it forward to re-attach air flow and then  

 pulling back until it breaks flow again, and then repeating.  This  

 can allow you to pull over the top of a vertical line and regain a  

 downward line at a much slower speed than you would have ever  

 believed possible.  Sergei Boriak taught me this.  It works.


	


Ah, that is precisely what I mean when I say you have to feel for it.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I usually limit my input to electrical stuff.  I am not a really  

 great aerobatic pilot... But I hang out with some really good  

 ones!  


	


The reasons for doing this are twofold:



1. to learn where the limits to flight are;



2. to become unafraid of the airplane.



--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

david(at)mcgirt.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:17 pm Post subject: Vertical roll

Some more basic CJ-6 Acro...



http://youtube.com/watch?v=woyRFd0sIw4





On 3/12/08 7:49 PM, "Jay Land" <jland(at)popeandland.com> wrote:



[quote] 

 

 It would be almost impossible to make the CJ flat spin inverted without

 serious skill- It's hard enough to make them spin at all.......

 

 I don't think Alex has ever gotten a "full" roll on an up line- it would

 certainly require exceeding redline before the pull.

 

 You can see a 1/4 roll on the upline here- (plus 8 sided loop, roll on the

 top of a loop, 1/2 cubans, hammers, etc....)

 

 http://www.landaerosports.com/content/view/28/46/

 

 Check out the CJ video.

 

 Jay

 

 

> From: "Roger Kemp M.D." <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com>

> Reply-To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

> Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 16:46:28 -0500

> To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

> Subject: RE: Re: Vertical roll

> 

> 

> 

> Suspect inverted flat spin would be one of them. But, that exists with any

> aircraft the you take into the vertical and run it out of energy while at

> the same time placing a rolling moment on it. Particularly if the torsional

> roll is opposite of the P factor. The F-16 does not like that at all! FWIW.

> Viperdoc

> 

> 

> 

> --

drc(at)wscare.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject: Vertical roll

Mark,

Excellent and exactly on !!



The key to the vertical roll is the perfect zero G line. Not positive  

or negative.  and wingtips even, as the plane slows more left rudder  

is needed and as the plane enters the first 1/4 loop gyroscopic force  

has to be countered.  If the plane hits the perfect vertical line the  

roll is as simple of an aileron roll as possible.  Rolling to the  

right is easier on the up and down line.  The elevator controls load  

and the rudder controls yaw.  If these are on there is no adverse yaw  

due to the roll.



You can cheat a little to nail the vertical line by pulling with the  

right wing slightly low (right roll) now you correct on the way up  

with the left rudder.  At zero airspeed almost all of the left foot is  

in and when you alternate and stand on the right rudder the pivot is  

amazingly sharp and fast  !!



The hint about the humpty below 50 knots is perfect - pumping the  

elevator provides enough airflow to complete the rotation at the top  

without a stall.



To stall inverted the plane must start over on its back, then push the  

stick forward = inverted stall.  If either foot is heavy on a rudder =  

inverted spin.  If the power is on and outspin aileron is entered =  

inverted flat spin.  So it takes some effort to put the Yak into an  

inverted flat spin.  And to recover, power off and neutralize the  

controls - if you have enough altitude it will recover nose down.



It is my understanding that besides a CG forward of the center of  

lift, minimal fuel load in the wings is critical.  If either upright  

or inverted spin is allowed to fully develop into autorotation and the  

fuel load is such that inertia moves the mass of the plane outboard,  

there may not be enough rudder to recover.



Fly Safe

Herb





On Mar 12, 2008, at 4:52 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,  

MALS-14 64E wrote:



[quote] 

 Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>



 I'm curious... And this is kind of off the subject line.  I infer  

 from what Brian said that the rudder control on a CJ is not all that  

 powerful.  I do not know this, I have never flown a CJ in my life,  

 so I am not bad mouthing anything.  However, I am curious how many  

 pilots here have worked with the elevator doing humpty-bumps on the  

 vertical line?



 As far as vertical rolls go, the real trick of these is to...  

 Well... To get VERTICAL in the first place.  Step two is to learn  

 how to watch your wingtips and learn how to use your rudder to KEEP  

 the vertical line by comparing wingtip placement compared to the  

 horizon.  A perfect vertical roll is something you kind of feel in  

 your butt when you get it really nailed.  Sadly, doing rolls going  

 down is a totally different experience than doing them going up.  A  

 lot of that has to do with where you end up focusing your eyes.



 Brian mentions maintaining enough airspeed that the rudder still  

 works in a CJ.  Being the nit-picker that I am, in a true  

 hammerhead, you do not have enough airspeed for the rudder to work  

 at all, or the ailerons for that matter.  What gives the rudder  

 control authority at all is the fact that the engine is creating air  

 flow past the rudder giving it enough control authority to commence  

 the hammerhead.  A true hammerhead is a pivot on a point with very  

 little forward aircraft motion, and if done perfectly... About zero  

 forward energy.  If you start a hammerhead too early with forward  

 speed, you will ARC through the turn and not pivot.  Again, knowing  

 nothing about a CJ, I differ to people who have flown it to know  

 what is necessary to do what.  That said, in most aerobatic aircraft  

 that I have flown, I practice zero airspeed recoveries on the  

 vertical line.  Anyone that decides to attempt a vertical roll is  

 probably going to sooner or later run out of airspeed while still in  

 the vertical.  Contrary to some belief, airplanes don't really like  

 to tail slide.  If you get into the vertical and realize you have  

 run out of airspeed and ideas at about the same time, there are many  

 thoughts on how to recover, from letting go of everything, to many  

 other ways.  My personal way is to try and force the hammerhead and  

 leave power on.  However if you really are out of ideas and totally  

 unsure of what to do next, I would pull the power to idle and hold  

 it there.  Neutralize everything and then just hang on for the  

 ride.  In many cases, it is just fun to do that and see what happens  

 anyway.  It is a great confidence builder to know that the airplane  

 will recover itself even after you have run out of great ideas.  It  

 is life preserving to be damn sure your aircraft is within CG limits  

 before doing this by the way.



 On the same topic is a humpty-bump when you go up in a vertical line  

 and use elevator to more or less... Half loop it, right over the  

 top, and then head straight down again.  The interesting thing here  

 is the speed that you can do this, which in many cases is much less  

 than you might imagine.  There is a trick.  You start this maneuver  

 on a vertical up line, and then pull into a half loop ending up  

 going straight down, hold the line, then recover.  On the second  

 attempt, hold the vertical line a little longer... Lose more  

 airspeed, and continue as before.  Do it again, even LESS airspeed.



 Sooner or later you will slow to the point that when you pull back  

 on the stick, you will feel it become loose in your hands... Which  

 at this point you have actually detached the air flow over the  

 surface of the elevator.  Quickly push the stick forward again, and  

 then pull it back again ... Once more you will get some aircraft  

 movement and then it will stop as the stick comes loose in your  

 hands.  Do this, in what looks like a rapid push forward, a pull  

 back, then a rapid push forward again... In a very fast kind of  

 pumping motion.  What you are doing is pulling back to airflow  

 detachment, then pushing it forward to re-attach air flow and then  

 pulling back until it breaks flow again, and then repeating.  This  

 can allow you to pull over the top of a vertical line and regain a  

 downward line at a much slower speed than you would have ever  

 believed possible.  Sergei Boriak taught me this.  It works.



 I usually limit my input to electrical stuff.  I am not a really  

 great aerobatic pilot... But I hang out with some really good  

 ones!  



 Mark Bitterlich

 N50YK

 --

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:22 pm Post subject: Vertical roll

Will try it.

Thanks,

Doc



--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: Vertical roll

Gabby is truly an amazingly talented young man.

Doc



--

scott-p(at)texas.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: Vertical roll

The only real trick to a vertical roll (up or down) is BE VERTICAL. Not 

close. VERTICAL. Learn this by having someone on the ground watch you, 

and believe what they tell you even if it looks wrong from the cockpit.



Oh, and don't play with the rudders--if you started vertical, rudders 

will barrel the roll while most errors in plane of rotation can (and 

should) be fixed with the elevator. Adding rudder to a line that isn't 

vertical will only result in what is essentially a vertical slip and 

rolling in that condition doesn't produce pretty rolls or long lines.



I agree that the best way to start vertical rolls is as a 1/4 roll on a 

vertical downline (e.g., after a hammer). In this case you are very 

likely to be vertical AND you can use a simple technique to keep the 

roll from being barreled: look straight ahead at the ground. Pick a 

point straight out in front of your eyes on the ground and roll around 

that point. When you've got the 1/4 down, move to 1/2 and then 3/4 and 

full rolls (or points for that matter). Once those are in hand, then 

start with the roll on the vertical up. It sounds weird, but some people 

find it easier to look straight ahead (i.e., up) and roll there too, and 

judge the amount of roll by timing.



It goes without saying that all this should be done at altitude, with a 

chute, ideally with an experience instructor, and ONLY after you are 

fully comfortable with upright and inverted spins of the normal, 

accelerated and flattened varieties. Botched vertical rolls sometimes 

end up as tumbles, so be prepared for Mr. Toad's wild ride...



That's it. No magic.



Hope this helps,



Scott

Yak 55M N155YK



fougapilot wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Ideally, one would like to do a complete 360 on the up line, but one is also realistic about one's airplane's limits.



 I guess the best way to explore this capability would be with adding a 1/4 turn on the down line of a hammer head. Then add 1/2 a turn and finally do the same on the up line. Just wondered if anyone had gone through the process before and could point the traps for me.



 Thanks,



 Dan





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=169347#169347

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject: Vertical roll

Thanks to both Herb and Scott for excellent corrections and additional advice.  Like I said, while I do love Aerobatics, I am no where near as good as most people on this list.  



Mark Bitterlich

 



--

drc(at)wscare.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject: Vertical roll

And I'll leave the electrical issues to you guys !!

On Mar 13, 2008, at 3:31 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,  

MALS-14 64E wrote:



[quote] 

 Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>



 Thanks to both Herb and Scott for excellent corrections and  

 additional advice.  Like I said, while I do love Aerobatics, I am no  

 where near as good as most people on this list.



 Mark Bitterlich

 --

3bar(at)telus.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:22 pm Post subject: Vertical Roll

Hey Dan,

  

 Back a few years ago in my first CJ with the 285,  myself and a buddy Peter Herzig, who was a competition acro dude with a Suk  26MX did verts in the CJ. Like a lot of guys said, I don't think we did get a  complete 360 but ended up with about a 270 before running out of steam.  Entered at 180K and 6G's and it works quite well, vertical line is a definite  key, level wings etc. We got supreme reprimand from father Lannon for speed  and stress, but I did keep doing them myself (outa site), then tried a mild  entry and fell off the top out of speed, pulled over backwards and let the heavy  end find its way down. Wasn't pretty at all so I never relaxed that entry again.  Have not yet done any in my M14P, but it should do a lot  better.

  

 Fly Safe,

  

 Paul Dumoret

   [quote][b]

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