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[Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD?
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jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:22 am Post subject: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD?

----- Forwarded message from Helen Woods <Helen_Woods(at)verizon.net> -----

Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 10:10:52 -0400

From: Helen Woods <Helen_Woods(at)verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD?

To: Sport_Aircraft(at)yahoogroups.com

Bill Denton wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Where did you hear this about AMD?

Reliable source.  I also called Edsel at AFS 610 to confirm.  He hadn't 

heard but said he wouldn't be surprised considering the number of 

airworthiness issues they've had.  He's going to research this today to 

confirm.  He said if it is true, this will be the first LSA company for 

which the FAA will have to rescind airworthiness certificates and it 

should be an interesting process to watch.

----- End forwarded message -----

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:08 am Post subject: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD?

I m staying out of this one.  Thanks to "Wang Chung".



SW

---

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:55 am Post subject: Re: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD?

I'm not.  I called them and they had heard of the rumor and said there was nothing to it. In fact they are fixing to move to a larger facility.



Let's keep something in mind. There are those that really need there to be a problem with the 601XL and the AMD LSA version specifically. Those people are the European builders of competing LSAs and there sales forces in the USA.



If you haven't noticed the value of the dollar has dropped significantly over the past few months. This has a HUGE effect on the companies trying to export to the US.



Who is this Helen Woods that posted to the Yahoo group and who is her "Reliable source?" Then there is her comment attributed to the guy at the FAA that says. "he wouldn't be surprised considering the number of 

airworthiness issues they've had."  What airworthiness issues would that be?



So, ask yourself, who has something to gain by this sort of rumor.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

swater6

Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 52
Location: Minnesota-KMIC/KANE

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:26 am Post subject: Re: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD?

Well said Gig!  You're absolutely right.

It's a shame this was posted on our list before letting it run it's course on the yahoo list.  

She lets out this little bomb of a rumor and in the same breath asks if anyone want to buy a Technam.  I read a few of her earlier posts and found out that she does indeed work for a Technam dealer.  Here is the website of Chesepeak Sport Pilot where she is an instructor and they are a dealer for Technam. http://www.chesapeakesportpilot.com/instructors.htm



She may indeed have "heard" something from someone she thinks is credible but she also has something to gain by fueling flames of her competition.  That is poor, poor business conduct.   



Folks, there are a lot of manufacturers of LSA and even more people that have invested their fortune in a dealership.  Many of these will not survive and this will cause some people to do some pretty bad things to stay in business.  This may not be the case with this person but we should all be weary of what we hear on a forum......

Put this one to bed...



Scott

_________________
601 XL kit N596SW reserved
Tail, control surfaces and both wings complete. Now working on fuselage

www.scottwaters.com

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD?

On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 09:55:30AM -0700, Gig Giacona wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I'm not.  I called them and they had heard of the rumor and said there was

 nothing to it. In fact they are fixing to move to a larger facility.


	


That's the answer I got when I finally was able to reach them, too. I was

initially concerned because I wasn't able to get an answer when I called

them about 10 AM Eastern...when they should have had someone there. I don't

know what had happened, but I'm satisfied now.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Let's keep something in mind. There are those that really need there to be

 a problem with the 601XL and the AMD LSA version specifically. Those

 people are the European builders of competing LSAs and there sales forces

 in the USA.


	


Indeed. As I've been saying about other things, though, just because the

messenger may have an ulterior motive doesn't automatically invalidate the

message.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Who is this Helen Woods that posted to the Yahoo group and who is her

 "Reliable source?"


	


Ms. Woods is a Tecnam dealer in Maryland. I knew that up front, even if her

initial message ("So, can I interest you in a Sierra?") didn't make it

plain. I don't know who her reliable source is.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Then there is her comment attributed to the guy at the FAA that says. "he

 wouldn't be surprised considering the number of airworthiness issues

 they've had." What airworthiness issues would that be?


	


When I asked her about that, she referred to the wing-collapse accidents

we've been discussing here.



 	  Quote: 	
		   So, ask yourself, who has something to gain by this sort of rumor.


	


We should always ask that question - but we should always also independently

check the facts and make sure that there's fire beneath the smoke.



As I said on the list where this was originally posted, I've got no problem

with Helen's posting the original message. Sure, it can easily be read as a

blatant attempt at FUD, but if she hadn't posted it, someone else would

have, and we'd still be having to check it out and post the facts.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

lwinger

Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 229
Location: Tustin, CA

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:45 am Post subject: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD?

Good bit of detective work, Scott.  

  

 Larry Winger

 601XL/Corvair

 Tustin, CA

  

 Do Not Archive



  [quote][b]

_________________
Larry Winger
Tustin, CA
Plans building 601XL/650 with Corvair
Installing fuel system
www.mykitlog.com/lwinger

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD?

There is no way an FAA employee said on the record and shouldn't be saying it off that there was an airworthiness issue regarding the wing failures.



The FAA never made the determination that there was an airworthiness issue with the 601XL and certainly not with the LSA version.



It's this statement that gives away the fact that the whole thing is a rumor started and repeated by competitors that are going to have to up the cost of their airplanes by 25% or more because of the drop in the dollar.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:15 am Post subject: Re: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD?

Since this Helen woman's post in the Yahoo group that started all this got posted here I though it was fitting to share the post where she pretty much admits that she is full of ....it.



 	  Quote: 	
		  

Fellow light sport enthusiasts,



I would like to apologize and fully retract my statements made

yesterday. While my intentions were benign, I inadvertently caused

considerable harm with my earlier posting. I have learned that AMD is

going strong and actually ramping up production. I am glad to hear so

as I have heard many fine things about their aircraft. It was pointed

out to me that the accident I pointed to was attributed to pilot error,

not any sort of design issue with the aircraft. My own mechanic is a

big AMD supporter and I know he would only favor an aircraft that he

believed was built to high standards. In regards to the good folks at

610, I never intended to quote them and what I posted was hearsay from

other sources, not fact let alone quotation. My statements were mine

alone and any ill feelings or concern should be directed to me alone. I

hope you will accept my retraction and apology.



I have enjoyed my time on this list, but feel it is time for me to

withdraw my membership. Thank you for the good conversation.



Helen

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

ihab.awad(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:32 am Post subject: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD?

On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 9:15 AM, Gig Giacona <wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    ... the post where she pretty much admits that she is full of ....it.

  > I would like to apologize and fully retract my statements ... I

  > hope you will accept my retraction and apology.

Giving credit where due, it sounds more like a chivalrous and

respectable _mea culpa_ to me.

Ihab

-- 

Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:17 am Post subject: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD?

So Long.....



---

Larry Hursh

Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 125
Location: Edwardsburg, MI (near Elkhart, IN)

Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:12 pm Post subject: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD?

To error is human.  To admit it takes a really BIG PERSON.  If she is more than willing to admit her error, apologize for it, why on Earth shouldn't I (we) take her apology and accept it?  To do otherwise, is being narrow-minded and shallow.  I'm sure she has learned a very valuable lesson (haven't we all sometime in our life?) and will not want to repeat anything she can't prove in the future.  Rumors can and usually are vicious, which she saw how wild this had gotten out of hand so quickly.  It takes a really great person to see the error of their ways and admit it.  Let's move forward now and learn from the lessons of this.  Helen, I for one wished you would remain a part of this group.  I accept your apology.  Does anyone else agree with me? 

   

  Regards, 

   

  Larry Hursh

  CH601XL (N601LL Reserved)



Gig Giacona  <wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" 



Since this Helen woman's post in the Yahoo group that started all this got posted here I though it was fitting to share the post 



	


        Be a better friend, newshound, and  [quote][b]

_________________
Larry Hursh (N650LM Reserved)

"One rivet at a time......one day at a time.."

CH650 (Converted from CH601XL)
1/2 done with fuselage
will be Corvair Powered

Trainnut01(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD?

Larry

 Yes I agree with you completely. 

 Carroll

  

  Do not archive

  



Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home.

  [quote][b]

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 1:18 pm Post subject: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD?

do not archive



I also agree.



Larry H <skyridersbn(at)yahoo.com> wrote:[quote] To error is human.  To admit it takes a really BIG PERSON.  If she is more than willing to admit her error, apologize for it, why on Earth shouldn't I (we) take her apology and accept it?  To do otherwise, is being narrow-minded and shallow.  I'm sure she has learned a very valuable lesson (haven't we all sometime in our life?) and will not want to repeat anything she can't prove in the future.  Rumors can and usually are vicious, which she saw how wild this had gotten out of hand so quickly.  It takes a really great person to see the error of their ways and admit it.  Let's move forward now and learn from the lessons of this.  Helen, I for one wished you would remain a part of this group.  I accept your  Downey

  Harleysville (SE) PA

  100 HP Corvair

    [quote][b]

jerry(at)jerryhey.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 1:34 pm Post subject: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD?

I agree and accept the apology for all the reasons you stated.  Jerry

On Mar 29, 2008, at 4:09 PM, Larry H wrote:[quote]To error is human.  To admit it takes a really BIG PERSON.  If she is more than willing to admit her error, apologize for it, why on Earth shouldn't I (we) take her apology and accept it?  To do otherwise, is being narrow-minded and shallow.  I'm sure she has learned a very valuable lesson (haven't we all sometime in our life?) and will not want to repeat anything she can't prove in the future.  Rumors can and usually are vicious, which she saw how wild this had gotten out of hand so quickly.  It takes a really great person to see the error of their ways and admit it.  Let's move forward now and learn from the lessons of this.  Helen, I for one wished you would remain a part of this group.  I accept your apology.  Does anyone else agree with me? 

   

  Regards, 

   

  Larry Hursh

  CH601XL (N601LL Reserved)



Gig Giacona <wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net (wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net)> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		   href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution  [/b] 	
[b]

Tommy Walker

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 442
Location: Anniston, AL 36207

Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:41 am Post subject: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD?

I am a little (no, maybe a lot) slow.  

   

Shouldn’t the acceptance of apology me made on the Yahoo forum?  

   

I thought that’s where the transgression and apology were made.  Otherwise, the transgressor will not know.  

   

But then, like I said….  

   

J  

   

Regards,  

Do Not Archive  

   

Tommy Walker in Alabama  

N8701 - 40.5 Hrs.  

   

   

       [quote][b]

_________________
Tommy Walker
N25A - Anniston, AL

rhansen16

Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Posts: 9
Location: New Mexico

Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:56 am Post subject: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD?

Larry you have this right on. It would be so unchristian of anybody not to accept an apoligy and I am very impressed with Helen for stepping up to the plate. No reason to leave here Helen. 

  

Rob  701 builder 



 ---

_________________
Rob Hansen
http://websites.expercraft.com/rhansen/

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:05 am Post subject: Re: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD?

Well Helen isn't going to leave here because she, to my knowledge, has never posted here. She is one of the Moderators Yahoo LSA Group which is where she posted both the message I quoted and the original message where she slandered AMD. 



There is a difference in accepting an apology and believing anything she ever posts again. She didn't just pass along a rumor. She stated that she talked to the FAA and they confirmed that there was airworthiness issues. There weren't any and the FAA didn't. She lied and considering her position with a competing aircraft builder It's pretty obvious that she new exactly what she was doing. I know if I were AMD just an apology isn't what I'd be looking for. Let's keep in mind that her original post is going to be there for a long long time and people tend, I've we've seen lately, to believe just about anything they read. The possible damage to AMD and Zenith is impossible to calculate. But, I know a couple of lawyers you would probably like to try.



Her statement, "While my intentions were benign, I inadvertently caused 

considerable harm with my earlier posting." Seem pretty lame considering she asked someone if they wanted to buy a plane from her in the same post where she attacked AMD.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

paulrod36(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:14 am Post subject: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD?

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  No, no, no!----She screwed up, and said something not factual. Nobody on  this list has ever done that before! Lightning is shooting up from the ground,  and great boulders are falling from the sky! Cats and dogs are dancing with each  other in the streets! (news and pictures at 11:00) Quick, gather the villagers  with torches, and storm the castle! Even if she doesn't live there, storm the  castle anyway! Retribution!!! We must all panic before it is too late! We must  mill around, shout and scream, and overreact to vent our respective spleens.  Those of us, that is, who don't have spleen vents spring loaded to the open  position This could lead to someone else misquoting a torque table, or giving  the wrong size AN bolt, or (gasp!) using the wrong color Scotchbrite. Where will  it all end?? Oh, the humanity!  (Sorry guys, I couldn't resist.) Helen,  bless her, recognized an error, and apologized, and it should be over and done  with. Shall we continue building, now?

  

 Paul Rodriguez

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

 [quote]   ---

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD?

That's very nice that you and others seem to think that her post is the same as a simple misstatement but it was a direct attack by the dealer of one product on the quality and in this case stability of a competitor.



She knew when she wrote it that the facts were untrue. And if you read the "apology" she never admits that she made it up.

[quote="paulrod36(at)msn.com"] No, no, no!----She screwed up, and said something not factual. Nobody on  this list has ever done that before! Lightning is shooting up from the ground,  and great boulders are falling from the sky! Cats and dogs are dancing with each  other in the streets! (news and pictures at 11:00) Quick, gather the villagers  with torches, and storm the castle! Even if she doesn't live there, storm the  castle anyway! Retribution!!! We must all panic before it is too late! We must  mill around, shout and scream, and overreact to vent our respective spleens.  Those of us, that is, who don't have spleen vents spring loaded to the open  position This could lead to someone else misquoting a torque table, or giving  the wrong size AN bolt, or (gasp!) using the wrong color Scotchbrite. Where will  it all end?? Oh, the humanity!  (Sorry guys, I couldn't resist.) Helen,  bless her, recognized an error, and apologized, and it should be over and done  with. Shall we continue building, now?

  

 Paul Rodriguez

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

  	  Quote: 	
		     ---

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject: [Sport_Aircraft] Re: AMD?

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 05:02:13PM -0700, Gig Giacona wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   That's very nice that you and others seem to think that her post is the

 same as a simple misstatement but it was a direct attack by the dealer of

 one product on the quality and in this case stability of a competitor.


	


It also failed miserably, as a moment's thought would have shown even the

least alert student it would. As such, if it was intended as an attack, it

was doomed to failure.



 	  Quote: 	
		   She knew when she wrote it that the facts were untrue. And if you read the

 "apology" she never admits that she made it up.


	


This overstates the case. She's got real concerns about the Zodiac's

airworthiness, likely because she knew a guy who was killed in a crash of

one.



I still think I'd rather hear such rumors earlier than later, because that

means they won't get a head of steam behind them before they can be

debunked.



Helen's posting may have been out of line, but it just doesn't bother me

that much - if for no other reason than it shows how well the Zodiac stacks

up against other LSAs. If it didn't, why would they be slamming it?

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

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