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airspeedx3(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:43 pm Post subject: toe out on the main gear

Kolbers,

   

    I am resetting the "toe out" on my new Handy Dandy Steel Gear Legs.  Checking my

  old MkIII instruction book states to align them straight inline with the fuselage centerline, or slightly toe out.

   

    "Slightly toe out" seems a lot vague to me.  Does anyone have actual toe setting details, or the best recommended "toe out setting (in degrees), for a tail dragger, in general?

   

    Here is what I presently have:

   

    With an 8 foot straight edge, lined up parallel with the tire, I have about 1.75 inches toe out, compared to straight inline with the centerline.

   

    My calculations are.....in 8 feet my "toe out" measures 1.75"

                                      my 8 foot straightedge = 96 inches (the radius)

                                     circumference = 3.14 x diameter

                                     circumference = 3.14 x 96 x 2

                                      circumference = 602.88"   (of an 8' radius circle)

   

    A degree = 1/360 of a circle, or in my case;  602.88" / 360 degrees = 1.68 inches/degree

   

    So, it would appear I have very close to 1 degree toe out, possibly 1.1 degree toe out.

   

  Does this sound about right?  Any opinions???

   

  Mike Welch

  MkIII on steel gear legs

   



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planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject: Re: toe out on the main gear

I know NOTHING about this...



 But I've always known "Toe - in ".....



 Just like putting a bolt "down or back"....



  Seems like if the axle nut should come off ...



"Toe - out" would make the wheel fly off....



 "toe - in"  would force it tighter on the axle....



 My Firestar has "Toe-in"... So does the trailer I made to haul it...



Gotta Fly...

Mike & "Jaz" in MN... ( Jaz "ALSO" has Toe-in )

.

.

.

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:19 pm Post subject: toe out on the main gear

MikeFWIW  1.75" sounds like a lot!



On Mar 30, 2008, at 6:40 PM, Mike Welch wrote:[quote]Kolbers,

   

    I am resetting the "toe out" on my new Handy Dandy Steel Gear Legs.  Checking my

  old MkIII instruction book states to align them straight inline with the fuselage centerline, or slightly toe out.

   

    "Slightly toe out" seems a lot vague to me.  Does anyone have actual toe setting details, or the best recommended "toe out setting (in degrees), for a tail dragger, in general?

   

    Here is what I presently have:

   

    With an 8 foot straight edge, lined up parallel with the tire, I have about 1.75 inches toe out, compared to straight inline with the centerline.

   

    My calculations are.....in 8 feet my "toe out" measures 1.75"

                                     my 8 foot straightedge = 96 inches (the radius)

                                     circumference = 3.14 x diameter

                                     circumference = 3.14 x 96 x 2

                                     circumference = 602.88"   (of an 8' radius circle)

   

    A degree = 1/360 of a circle, or in my case;  602.88" / 360 degrees = 1.68 inches/degree

   

    So, it would appear I have very close to 1 degree toe out, possibly 1.1 degree toe out.

   

  Does this sound about right?  Any opinions???

   

  Mike Welch

  MkIII on steel gear legs

   



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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: toe out on the main gear

 	  Quote: 	
		   My Firestar has "Toe-in"... So does the trailer I made to haul it...



 Gotta Fly...

 Mike & "Jaz" in MN... ( Jaz "ALSO" has Toe-in )

 Do Not Archive


	




 Mike & "Jaz",



  You Firestar is supposed to have a tiny bit of "toe out", not "toe in".

Taildragger aircraft are set up with a slight amount of toe out, because if you

land on only one wheel (crosswind landing, or whatever), it will have the tendency to drive away 

from the centerline, plopping you down onto the other wheel, which is what you want.  A "toe in" 

wheel would want to drive toward the raised wheel, worsening the one-wheel condition.



  I thought Jaz was afflicted with "toe jam", not "toe in".  Might be my error, though.  (PS, don't

tell him I said so.  I understand he is sensitive about these matters).



Mike Welch

MkIII, no toe jam football here!



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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:43 pm Post subject: toe out on the main gear

 	  Quote: 	
		  Mike

FWIW  1.75" sounds like a lot!


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  Russ


	




  Russ,



  Are you sure you have an accurate picture of my situation?



  Picture this.  There is a string perfectly parallel to the centerline of the airplane, but 44" away from the centerline.

This parallel string runs just barely along side of the outside edge of the wheel (either one).



  Now, if you place an 8 foot long straight-edge just touching that string, next to the wheel.  At the far end of the 

straight-edge, set it to 1.75" away from the string.  This creates a 1 degree angle, "toe out".



  I know it sounds as though it may be excessive, but without the straight-edge, you almost can't see that the wheel isn't parallel with the string.  1 degree is really hard to tell that is has any "toe out".  You need the straight-edge to 

even know.



Mike Welch

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ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:49 pm Post subject: toe out on the main gear

what you have there will work just fine, you dont want  any toe in on a tail dragger as it will make things very interesting for others  to watch at fast speeds with the mains still on the  Pavement

 personally I like mine Very straight  the tires  wear more even 

  

 Ellery in Maine 

 do not archive

  

  In a message dated 3/30/2008 5:44:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  airspeedx3(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Kolbers,

    

     I am resetting the "toe out" on my new Handy Dandy Steel Gear    Legs.  Checking my

   old MkIII instruction book states to align them straight inline with the    fuselage centerline, or slightly toe out.

    

     "Slightly toe out" seems a lot vague to me.  Does anyone    have actual toe setting details, or the best recommended "toe out setting (in    degrees), for a tail dragger, in general?

    

     Here is what I presently have:

    

     With an 8 foot straight edge, lined up parallel with the tire, I    have about 1.75 inches toe out, compared to straight inline with the    centerline.

    

     My calculations are.....in 8 feet my "toe out" measures  1.75"

                                         my 8 foot straightedge = 96 inches (the radius)

                                      circumference    = 3.14 x diameter

                                         circumference = 3.14 x 96 x 2

                                         circumference = 602.88"   (of an 8' radius circle)

    

     A degree = 1/360 of a circle, or in my case;  602.88" / 360    degrees = 1.68 inches/degree

    

     So, it would appear I have very close to 1 degree toe out,    possibly 1.1 degree toe out.

    

   Does this sound about right?  Any opinions???

    

   Mike Welch

   MkIII on steel gear legs

    

   

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  [quote][b]

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:21 am Post subject: Re: toe out on the main gear

Here is another Opinion on toe-out (Like you need an extra hole in your head) but what the heck...information is power right?!!!

I Thought that Toe-in (pidgeon toed) was used because it tends to push the wheel against the bearings, hub and helps hold the tire on if cotters or nuts come off.



Also, it pushes the wheel legs closer together helping support the weight of the aircraft on the landing gear on bounces.



Toe-out would cause the legs to be pulled out potentially increasing the leg bending loads.



Too much of either one is bad.



My common sense tells me that with the plane in the flight level attitude you want only very slight Toe-in which would probably be about neutral toe-in when the tail is on the ground.



Let us know how it goes.

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

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ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject: toe out on the main gear

Try a toe in  configuration,  I have  flown a champ that had it, it really likes to make things hard  handling on the ground  both wheels fighting with each other to see who can  get the most traction tossing the plane back and forth, if your cotter pin and  your bearing nuts are not in place  you didn't do a good  installation or inspection of  your equipment the correct procedure is  a toe out sorry but I have been there done that 

  

 Ellery in Maine

 do not archive

  

  In a message dated 3/31/2008 2:24:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  jb92563(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Kolb-List message posted by: "jb92563" <jb92563(at)yahoo.com>



Here    is another Opinion on toe-out (Like you need an extra hole in your head) but    what the heck...information is power right?!!!

I Thought that    Toe-in (pidgeon toed) was used because it tends to push the wheel against the    bearings, hub and helps hold the tire on if cotters or nuts come    off.



Also, it pushes the wheel legs closer together helping support the    weight of the aircraft on the landing gear on bounces.



Toe-out would    cause the legs to be pulled out potentially increasing the leg bending    loads.



Too much of either one is bad.



My common sense tells me    that with the plane in the flight level attitude you want only very slight    Toe-in which would probably be about neutral toe-in when the tail is on the    ground.



Let us know how it goes.



--------

Ray



Kolb    UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)

Moni MotorGlider

Schreder HP-11    Glider

Riverside County, CA



Do Not Archive





Read    this topic online    here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=173941#173941

	




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  [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:20 pm Post subject: toe out on the main gear

Ellery/Steve B/Gang:

  

 I do not know about other airplanes, but Kolbs like a tad of  toe in.  How much is a tad?  Not much.

  

 Toe out on a Kolb, minus the US, tends to spread the gear  sequentially.  The farther it rolls on pavement, the more the main gear  will spread apart, increasing toe out and negative camber.  It is the  nature of aluminum rod landing gear legs.  Unlike truss/ladder type gear  legs that by nature hole the main wheels in what ever alignment they were in  before the aircraft started rolling.

  

 When the brakes are applied on a Kolb, the main wheels tend to  toe out because the gear legs twist.

  

 I use about 5 deg of positive camber and about 1/8" toe  in.  It works for me and has for many many hours in the FS and the  mkIII.

  

 john h

 mkIII

 hauck's holler, alabama

  

  

 [quote]    the correct procedure is    a toe out sorry but I have been there done that 

    

   Ellery in Maine

    

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:38 pm Post subject: toe out on the main gear

I Thought that Toe-in (pidgeon toed) was used because it tends to push the wheel against the bearings, hub and helps hold the tire on if cotters or nuts come off.  

   

Also, it pushes the wheel legs closer together helping support the weight of the aircraft on the landing gear on bounces.  

   

Toe-out would cause the legs to be pulled out potentially increasing the leg bending loads.  

   

Too much of either one is bad.  

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   

   
	


The plans that came with my mkIIIc state:  

   

The wheels should be aligned as shown: Parallel with the centerline axis of the airplane.   If you must err,  err on the side of having the wheels toe out a bit.   Do not have any “toe-in”.  

   

   

Not being an engineer,,, I built as close as I could to plans.  

   

Boyd   

       [quote][b]

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:21 pm Post subject: toe out on the main gear

John H., Ray, and the rest of you'ze guys,



  Since the Wright Bros. began the HomeBuilt craze, it has always been my understanding that (all) taildraggers

require toe out, for the primary reason I already stated, namely, because the wheel that is touching the ground has a tendency to "drive out" from the centerline of the plane, thereby causing the other wheel to touch, also.



  Like Ellery said, "No, toe in or out doesn't have anything to do with your wheels coming off if you lose the cotter

pin and wheel nuts."  That is nonsense to think you angle the wheel a particular direction to help keep the wheel on!!

Toe in or out has nothing to do with keeping your wheels on, it has to do with proper ground control manners.



  We are talking TINY amounts of angle, gentlemen!  So little, that if you have a string stretched taut next to the wheel, inline with the centerline of the plane, that you couldn't tell there was any angle....either in or out.  You need to place a long straightedge against the wheel, to actually see where the wheel is really pointing.



  On page 9, of my KOLB TWINSTAR MARK III " Plans Contents (yellow) book, it says;



The wheels should be aligned as shown (straight, neither toe in or out, according to the drawing):  Parallel with the centerline axis of the airplane.  If you must err, err on the side of having the wheels toe out a bit.  Do not have any "toe-in".



  I double checked my actual toe out today.  It is more like 1.25" toe out in 8 feet.  



Here's another "mental picture" of what I have;  I described my present settings to be "1.25" in 8 feet.  In other words, if the right tire was rolled, it would travel 1.25" to the right, after a distance of eight feet.  While this setting 

would be a little excessive on a car, an airplane spends most of it's time in the air.  



  John H.  If I understood your toe in description, you said you have 1/8" toe in.  If you have the same MkIII OEM

wheels and tires I have, then that would equate to 1/8" in 7" (the tire's radius).  Converting this to my measurement

equates to:  8 feet = 96 ",  96" / 7" radius = 13.7,   13.7 X 1/8" = approx. 1.75".



  In other words, your wheels are angled almost exactly the same as mine, except your's are angle slightly in, and mine are angled slightly out.



  Thanks for the discourse.  You know, it may be that as long as your wheels are kept within reasonable limits, either in or out, it may not make too much difference.  Could it be that Kolbs are easy ground handlers?



Mike Welch



________________________________



From: jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: toe out on the main gear

Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:18:01 -0500



Ellery/Steve B/Gang:



I do not know about other airplanes, but Kolbs like a tad of toe in.  How much is a tad?  Not much.



Toe out on a Kolb, minus the US, tends to spread the gear sequentially.  The farther it rolls on pavement, the more the main gear will spread apart, increasing toe out and negative camber.  It is the nature of aluminum rod landing gear legs.  Unlike truss/ladder type gear legs that by nature hole the main wheels in what ever alignment they were in before the aircraft started rolling.



When the brakes are applied on a Kolb, the main wheels tend to toe out because the gear legs twist.



I use about 5 deg of positive camber and about 1/8" toe in.  It works for me and has for many many hours in the FS and the mkIII.



john h



mkIII



hauck's holler, alabama

 the correct procedure is a toe out sorry but I have been there done that



Ellery in Maine

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ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:21 pm Post subject: toe out on the main gear

I still like my wheels as straight as possible ,  just for even tire wear 

  

 Ellery in Maine

 do not archive

  

  In a message dated 3/31/2008 5:39:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  by0ung(at)brigham.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		        

    

I Thought that Toe-in (pidgeon toed) was used because    it tends to push the wheel against the bearings, hub and helps hold the tire    on if cotters or nuts come off.   

    

Also, it pushes the wheel legs closer together helping    support the weight of the aircraft on the landing gear on    bounces.   

    

Toe-out would cause the legs to be pulled out    potentially increasing the leg bending loads.   

    

Too much of either one is    bad.   

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    

    
	


The plans that came with my mkIIIc    state:   

    

The wheels should be aligned as shown:    Parallel with the centerline axis of the airplane.   If you must    err,  err on the side of having the wheels toe out a bit.   Do    not have any â€œtoe-inâ€.   

    

    

Not being an engineer,,, I built as close    as I could to plans.   

    

Boyd 

 	  Quote: 	
		  



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  [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:34 pm Post subject: toe out on the main gear

>  John H.  If I understood your toe in description, you said you have 1/8" 

toe in.  If you have the same MkIII OEM

 	  Quote: 	
		   wheels and tires I have, then that would equate to 1/8" in 7" (the tire's 

 radius).  Converting this to my measurement

 equates to:  8 feet = 96 ",  96" / 7" radius = 13.7,   13.7 X 1/8" = 

 approx. 1.75".



  In other words, your wheels are angled almost exactly the same as mine, 

 except your's are angle slightly in, and mine are angled slightly out.



  Thanks for the discourse.  You know, it may be that as long as your 

 wheels are kept within reasonable limits, either in or out, it may not 

 make too much difference.  Could it be that Kolbs are easy ground 

 handlers?



 Mike Welch

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: toe out on the main gear

>  John H.  If I understood your toe in description, you said you have 1/8" 

toe in.  If you have the same MkIII OEM

 	  Quote: 	
		   wheels and tires I have, then that would equate to 1/8" in 7" (the tire's 

 radius).  Converting this to my measurement

 equates to:  8 feet = 96 ",  96" / 7" radius = 13.7,   13.7 X 1/8" = 

 approx. 1.75".



  In other words, your wheels are angled almost exactly the same as mine, 

 except your's are angle slightly in, and mine are angled slightly out.



  Thanks for the discourse.  You know, it may be that as long as your 

 wheels are kept within reasonable limits, either in or out, it may not 

 make too much difference.  Could it be that Kolbs are easy ground 

 handlers?



 Mike Welch


	




Mike W:



Maybe reread my previous msg on how and why I set up my main gear the way I 

do.



Sometimes I think we need to forget all the knowledge we have of why other 

aircraft do what they do and focus on what we are building and flying. 

Kolbs don't always agree with all those other tail draggers out there.



I'll repeat myself.  A tad of toe in and 5 deg of positive camber work great 

for me and my mkIII.  I have never worn/scrubbed the tread off a tire on my 

FS or mkIII.



Negative camber is progressive and most likely will scrub your tires.



Aluminum gear legs on Kolbs are quite flexible, not only in bending, but 

also in twist.  Your main gear almost have a mind of their own.



I have used heat treated 4130 for gear legs on my FS and mkIII since 1986. 

I use them because they work much better for me than aluminum rod.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:55 pm Post subject: toe out on the main gear

Hmmm.  From my experience with R/C taildraggers, I've found that any 

toe-out made the plane quite squirrelly on the ground and prone to ground 

looping.



Picture this:  Wheels toe out.  Plane is slightly yawed to the right, by an 

amount (for sake of discussion) equal to the toe-out.  This results in the 

left wheel tracking exactly straight, and the right wheel scrubbing.  The 

scrubbing results in greater drag on that side, so the plane yaws even more 

to the right, etc.



Toe-in, OTOH, would be self correcting.  Additionally, any braking flexes 

the gear back, which would make any toe-out even worse, but would correct 

toe-in.



I would shoot for perfectly straight, but err on the side of toe-in.



-Dana

--

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jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:15 pm Post subject: toe out on the main gear

Think about what you want your aircraft react during gusty cross wind 

landing.



Assume you are side slipping with the up wind wing down and some rudder to 

keep aligned with the center line during final approach and you are going to 

stick the upwind wheel.



If you have toe out, the wheel touch will cause yaw up wind.

If you have toe in, the wheel touch will cause yaw down wind.

If you have zero toe in, the wheel touch will not influence yaw.



With a CG that is behind the main gear, which situation are you the most 

comfortable?



It is important to have a little positive camber. Also, check and set your 

camber and toe in at or close to gross weight for best results.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:18 pm Post subject: toe out on the main gear

John,



  Regarding my present gear legs, they are steel.  Remember all the questions I had about a month ago.  Well, since then I built my new ones.  They are 1 3/8" chromoly 4130.  I built them to have 3.5 degrees positive camber.  I did not like the looks of 5 degrees positve camber, so I chose to aim for a little less.  I planned on 4 degrees, but after it was all said and done, I ended up with 3.5.  I am happy with that.  Clearly they tilt out a little at the tops, but not a whole lot, and this 1 3/8" x .0120 tubing is some tough stuff!



  While your experience may prefer slight toe in, I was going by the Kolb Construction book that says straight, or, if anything, slight toe out.



  I also agree that with the tiny amount of toe we have, either in or out, neither will will scrub your tires.  It just not that much off from straight!



Mike Welch

MkIII steel gear

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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: toe out on the main gear

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Toe-in, OTOH, would be self correcting. Additionally, any braking flexes

 the gear back, which would make any toe-out even worse, but would correct

 toe-in.



 I would shoot for perfectly straight, but err on the side of toe-in.



 -Dana


	




  Dana,



  While doing a little research, about the time I posed this question to the group, it appears that on RC models

you do indeed set for toe in.  For the reasons you stated, you are correct.  RC models should be set for slight toe in.



  What is becoming apparent to me is that slight toe in,  to slight toe out,  is not going to make a huge difference.

I think I will just call it good, and leave them with 3.5 degrees positive camber, and 1 degrees toe out.  Looks good, and should work just fine!



  One thing I am fairly curious about, though, is why there are so few Kolbs with wheel pants.  I am in the middle of

fabricating the mounts for my fiberglass wheel pants.  I've just about completed installing one, and it should be 1/3 the time to do the second one.  Most of the time spent on the first one was trying to see what would work.  The second one is just a matter of making a mirror image of some parts.



  So, can you answer this one for me?  Why don't more guys install wheel pants.  Mine will be so solidly mounted, that I don't think landing on grass has anyhing to do with it.  I'm curious......??



Mike W

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aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:34 pm Post subject: toe out on the main gear

My MK111 has wheel pants and looks great. They have never been a problem on 

grass strips. I have used it in some pretty long grass and apart from 

picking up a few stalks they just part the grass on thay through.



  Tony

         From Down under

---

ronlee

Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 141

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: toe out on the main gear

Regarding wheel pants.

If you like to use your tire for a seat you will lose it by installing wheel pants.

_________________
Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona

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