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Firestar Project
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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject: Firestar project

Bill S:

  

 Based on your statement below, I feel you are  getting into this way over your head.

  

 Changing the length of the tailboom, shortening it,  will change a docile Kolb into one that is nearly unmanageable.

  

 Changing aerodynamics and control systems to suit  your fancy for an airplane you have never flown, especially when you have never  flown a Kolb and, I understand you are also a low time pilot who has not flown  in nearly 40 years, is not recommended.  As long as I have been building  and flying Kolbs, I don't make changes in these areas, because I want to live to  fly tomorrow.

  

 Changing a Kolb "to suit your fancy" or "squeezing  it down to fit the mission" may well quickly bite you in the ass.  It  is not "a broad playing field".

  

 Probably be to your best interest to have a  reliable individual with a lot of knowledge of building and flying Kolb aircraft  carefully inspect your Kolb before you ever make a decision to commit aviation  in it.

  

 Good luck with your project,

  

 john h

 mkIII

 [quote]    To me, the basic current Kolb design is    eminently suitable for modifications. You can make them lighter, shorter,    streamlined, open cockpit, doors, control mods (Hi! Mike), shape wings and    tail to suit your fancy, re-power easily, and you name it. Or, like me,    squeeze it down to fit the mission. It's a broad playing field, all on the    same design. 

                                                               Bill Sullivan

    

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject: Firestar project

Not me, John! I was just speaking in general. Look at the differences in my Firestar, a stock FS, and the OAL on Jack's Firefly. Also my clipped wing set (not on the plane). And the difference in aileron length between old Firestars and new ones. I was merely trying to point out the incredible flexibility of the basic design. Look at all the modifications you guys have been doing. About all you could do on a Quicksilver is change the wheels. Maybe the powerplant, maybe. I was merely making a statement admiring the versatility of the basic "boom" design. I would not dream of doing anything original- I do not have the knowledge. 

    The factory has been able to use the pod and boom, pusher engine concept to the point that I have trouble identifying them from a side profile. No cue cards, and I wish there was an ID book.

    There also seems to be a lot of leeway in individual assembly- tail design, for one. Nobody tinkers with the  basic design inside the wings, but do update them to current standards- like the corner braces of a couple of weeks ago. Again, a flexible design concept. You don't have to replace the whole wing.

    No, I don't get too many bright ideas in unfamiliar ground. I pump other people for information. I am very comservative, and expect my renewed flying habits to be the same way.

   

  do not archive

   

                                                       Bill Sullivan

                                                        Fs/KX/447

 [quote][b]

beauford173(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:20 pm Post subject: Firestar project

From: John Hauck (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)  

  

 Changing the length of the tailboom, shortening it,  will change a docile Kolb into one that is nearly unmanageable.

  



  

  

 ...I reckon that explains a lot, John....   been wonderin'.... truth is, dropped my Fly's tailboom when building and  had to cut five inches off that sucker to get rid of the dent....tripped over my  Bride's faggy little fuzzy-ass cat...same one that peed all over  the roll of poly fiber just before I started covering... sure cleared  the roaches out of the garage when the hot iron hit that stuff...

  

 Anyway, that Fly's been unmanageable all  right...especially that little Nazi 447...  and speakin' of a lack of  managability... there's the Formidable Mrs. Beauford...hadn't thought about the  causal relationship until you brought it up, but it looks to me like she's  gettin' shorter too...  last ten year or so, anyways...  lack of  manageability creeps up on a man.

  

 Gotta agree with you in principle about sawing off  Kolb tailbooms, though... I think shorter ain't better except when you're  building the trailer... W&B complications aside, shortening it changes all  sorts of geometry with things like control authority in the rear end...   makes fer BIG trim tabs... and (dare I mention it) VG's all over the tail  feathers...

  

 sigh...

  

 pensive beauford

 FF-076

 Brandon, FL

 Do Not Archive

 [quote]    

[b]

R. Hankins

Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 185
Location: Grants Pass, Oregon

Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:56 pm Post subject: Re: Firestar Project

 	  capedavis(at)yahoo.com wrote: 	
		  Roger ,A kxp with a 503 aint that a great combo .Mine was a 1990  I  finished it in 92 and flew it for 10 years ! a short ground roll and then straight up what a joy . Wish I still had her. Chris  

	


It is a great combo!  That is what I meant by hoping I'm still flying it at 60.  I hope to have built a two seater by then, but don't want to give up the KXP.  I want my KXP to last 'til I'm 60 and then some.

_________________
Roger in Oregon
1992 KXP 503 - N1782C

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:19 am Post subject: Firestar project

You can make them lighter, shorter, streamlined,  open cockpit, doors, control mods (Hi! Mike), shape wings and tail to suit your  fancy, re-power easily, and you name it. Or squeeze it down to fit the  mission. It's a broad playing field, all on the same  design.>>

  

 Hi Bill,

  

 I am sure someone with a lot more Kolb experience  than  me will guide you away from your chosen course.

  

 I do have a bit of experience in other planes and I  can only regard your `make it shorter, make it lighter philosophy`  with  concern. Sure there are things you can do. Doors, re engine etc., but  messing with the basic design by changing the shape and size of flying  surfaces and shortening the fuselage is playing with fire unless you have a good  grounding in aeronautics. You may finish up with a plane which fulfils the  parameters but it won`t be a Kolb. So instead of having a plane with a tried and  tested history you will have a one off machine which may or may not be any good.  Why reinvent the wheel?

 

   .<< A lot of them (rules)  are pure  nonsense. For example, allowing 30 extra pounds for floats when a life jacket  would do the same thing>>

 I don`t think that the object of fitting floats is to support you in the  water in the case of a crash. To equate a lifejacket with floats shows  a  tendency to confuse apples and oranges.

  

 I realise that in the States you have a much more cavalier attitude to  rules and regs than we rather `button down` Brits and I applaud that , but  it seems that you are planning to take things a bit far.

  

 The old building adage is  `Measure twice and cut once` To that I  would add `Think three times`

  

 Good luck,

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat 

   [quote][b]

rowedenny

Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Posts: 338
Location: Western PA

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:55 am Post subject: Firestar project

Pat,

 Please understand Bill is talking about all the  variations in Kolb models (ie: Mk-3 to Slingshot to Kolbra to X-tra, or the  many Firestar models to Firefly) as well as many of the listers slight  departures from stock.  NOT about doing all these mods to his personel  plane.

 John H and yourself are missing his point of how  flexable the basic Kolb design has proven to be. As Bill stated more than once,  he has no plans of doing any major changes to his own bird. He is only pointing  out the obvious flexability of Homers creation.

  

 Denny Rowe

 [quote]   ---

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:21 am Post subject: Firestar project

Jeremy- My stainless steel cable brackets do not look like the ones in the pictures you sent. Mine have one hole in each end. I will replace, just in case.

    Re: Tail boom length- mine is a foot shorter than a regular Firestar. With the original wings- about 25' 4", supposedly the handling was great. The former owner had nothing but praise for it. Somebody mentioned trim tabs- My original right wing has one, I think about 3" x 6",but I can't tell how much of a bend in it. No tabs on the tail.

    I will have an opportunity to do a side by side check of both a Firefly and a Firestar. And also get the builder/pilots to do the same on mine. There are a couple of very experienced people at the club.

    Here is where some of the fun comes in: Trying to guess what kind of handling performance it has, relative to a "stock" Firefly or Firestar. Anybody want to try for some experienced speculation? The length is 19'- shorter than  either model. Wingspan is about 27' 4". Engine is what appears to be a stock 447, with a 2 blade Warp Drive prop, pitch unknown. The wings are located 2 1/2" farther to the rear than stock. Leverage on the controls appears to be stock.

    Comments, anyone?

   

                                                       Bill Sullivan

                                                       FS/KX/447

                                                        Windsor Locks, Ct.

 [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:14 am Post subject: Firestar project

Denny:

  

 I may be missing Bill S's point in that one msg,  but I consider relocating wings 2.5 inches aft of the prescribed position, and  shortening the tailboom, major changes.

  

 The second tailboom in my MKIII was shortened one  foot.  Luckily I did not have to fly it long before it was time to change  to the correct standard length.  I would never have thought that one change  would affect the flight characteristics of my MKIII, but it did,  adversely...

  

 I'm not an aeronautical engineer, but seems to me  that moving the wings back 2.5" and moving the tail section forward by what ever  the tail boom was shortened, will drastically influence the flight  characteristics of whatever model Kolb Bill S intends to fly.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

 [quote]    John H and    yourself are missing his point of how flexable the basic Kolb design has    proven to be. As Bill stated more than once, he has no plans of doing any    major changes to his own bird. He is only pointing out the obvious flexability    of Homers creation.

    

   Denny Rowe

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: Firestar project

John- The tail boom was made that way- 1' shorter- by the original builder. I didn't know it until the other day. The 2 1/2" wing mount was ok'd by TNK, and mounted according to their recommendations. Weight and balance checked out. I can't find the work sheet I used, but it fell in the bracket. With a heavier pilot, I imagine it would be nose heavy.

   

  do not archive

                                               Bill Sullivan

                                               FS/KX/447

                                                Windsor Locks, Ct.

 [quote][b]

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: Firestar project

With a shorter boom tube,  you will have a shorter moment arm for the horizontal stabilizer and elevators, reducing their effectiveness.    With a shorter moment arm you will need to provide more force to do the same amount of work, thus requiring a larger control surface, or more speed.   Opps there goes the gentile handling kolbs are known for.   If the stabilizers stall at 10 ft, the nose will drop as will the plane,  just another set of bent landing gear or worse.  And with the wings moved back 2 ½ inches,,,  that will make the problem even worse.  

   

Just my 2 cents worth,  and food for thought,,,,  gravity does not care who did the mods,,,  you or the original builder,,,  its still the boss.  

   

Boyd   

   

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   

John- The tail boom was made that way- 1' shorter- by the original builder. I didn't know it until the other day. The 2 1/2" wing mount was ok'd by TNK, and mounted according to their recommendations. Weight and balance checked out. I can't find the work sheet I used, but it fell in the bracket. With a heavier pilot, I imagine it would be nose heavy.  
	


   

do not archive  

                                             Bill Sullivan  

   

       [quote][b]

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:28 am Post subject: Firestar project

Boyd/all

  

 You are right. Kolbs are more forgiving of this  kind of change but be careful.

  

 In the early days of this list people were doing  this to correct a aft CG issue. I tried to convince them that this was the wrong  way to do it but.... It reduced the weight on the tail wheel so it must fix the  problem. Go figure. There are others out there that did the same.

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

 [quote]   ---

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:24 pm Post subject: Firestar project

You all may be right about somebody changing aft CG. This this came through with a box of bent LG legs.

   

  do not archive

                                                      Bill Sullivan

                                                      FS/KX/447

                                                       Windsor Locks, Ct.

 [quote][b]

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:32 pm Post subject: Firestar project

John and company- I do understand the implications of changes to the basic design. I will keep that in mind during flight tests. I have a brother-in-law who is qualified all the way up to a B-52, and he is itching to flight test it. I will make sure he reads all of this. Thank you. When it does fly, I will report on it. Probably 2 weeks.

   

  do not archive

                                                  Bill Sullivan

                                                   FS/KX/447

                                                  Windsor Locks, Ct.

 [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: Firestar project

Bill S:

  

 Don't know that aft cg bends gear legs.  Was  more prone to believe that was a pilot's responsibility.

  

 john h

 mkIII

 [quote]    

   You all may be right about somebody changing aft CG. This this came    through with a box of bent LG legs.

    

                                                           Bill Sullivan

                                                           

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:47 pm Post subject: Firestar project

Bill S:

  

 That's great!

  

 How much time does he have in a Kolb?

  

 Don't know that a B-52 pilot has much in common  with a Kolb pilot.  

  

 These are the guys that usually have all the  qualifications, but end up breaking the Kolb.

  

 Good luck.

  

 john h

 mkIII

 [quote]    I have a brother-in-law who is qualified    all the way up to a B-52, and he is itching to flight test it. 

                                                      Bill Sullivan

                                                       

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject: Firestar project

At 07:19 AM 4/17/2008, william sullivan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  My stainless steel cable brackets do not look like the ones in the 

pictures you sent. Mine have one hole in each end.


	


The Ultrastar has the brackerts with one hole in each end.  You make the 

cables up with three washers under each bracket, then you remove washers as 

necessary to align the surfaces and tension the cables.



 	  Quote: 	
		    Trying to guess what kind of handling performance it has, relative to a 

 "stock" Firefly or Firestar. Anybody want to try for some experienced 

 speculation? The length is 19'- shorter than either model. Wingspan is 

 about 27' 4". Engine is what appears to be a stock 447, with a 2 blade 

 Warp Drive prop, pitch unknown. The wings are located 2 1/2" farther to 

 the rear than stock.


	


Obviously you MUST make sure the balance is correct, relative to the 

wing.  Then, it'd guess it might be a bit livelier in pitch and yaw than a 

stock plane, and you may have less elevator and rudder authority.  Also it 

may need greater wing incidence, or lower tail incidence, to fly hands off 

at the same trim speed.



-Dana



--

  A common mistake that people make when trying to design something 

completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject: Firestar project

At 06:30 PM 4/17/2008, william sullivan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I have a brother-in-law who is qualified all the way up to a B-52, and he 

is itching to flight test it.


	


But how much ultralight and/or Kolb time does he have?



My brother in law used to fly F-15's and F-106's, and now flies GA and 

trains people to fly L-39's on the side.  I would NOT let him fly my 

Ultrastar without some ultralight dual time.



-Dana



--

  A common mistake that people make when trying to design something 

completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: Firestar project

John- Brian (my brother-in-law) has flown just about everything. I am almost certain he has never flown a Kolb. I do know that he has experience on light (if not ultralight) aircraft, and at least keeps his private ticket up. I don't think you can rent a B-52 for any reasonable hourly rate. I do know he is about the most conservative pilot I've ever met. I do know, it won't be me- experience. I'm not proud- I'll let somebody else try it. You volunteering?

   

  do not archive

                                                   Bill Sullivan

                                                    FS/KX/447

                                                   Windsor Locks, Ct.



John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:

  [quote]        Bill S:

   

  That's great!

   

  How much time does he have in a Kolb?

   

  Don't know that a B-52 pilot has much in common with a Kolb pilot.  

   

  These are the guys that usually have all the qualifications, but end up breaking the Kolb.

   

  Good luck.

   

  john h

  mkIII

  [quote]   I have a brother-in-law who is [quote][b]

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: Firestar project

Re: Bent gear legs. Yup. Probably the pilot. Second thought: Kolb Drop.

   

  do not archive

                                            Bill Sullivan

                                            FS/KX/447

                                            Windsor Locks, Ct.

 [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:39 pm Post subject: Firestar project

[quote] ---

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

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