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brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:18 am Post subject: opinions: 360 hp vs. 400 hp

I am getting ready to buy an engine for The Project. I am interested  

in opinions about desirability of an M14P vs. M14PF in a CJ6A. Here  

are my questions:



1. Would you pay more for a CJ6A with an M14PF instead of an M14P?



2. If so, how much more would it be worth to you?



3. If you were looking at several different CJ6As, would 400hp attract  

you more than 360hp?



Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brianl AT lloyd DOT com             Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:37 am Post subject: opinions: 360 hp vs. 400 hp

IMHO there is never too much power in an airplane.  



More power is going to be a deciding factor between airplanes.  



Yes, I would pay more for a PF vs a P equipped ANYTHING.  



What it would be worth to me is hard to estimate, but at least 5-10

thou.  



I don't fit in a CJ so I don't look.  If it were a YAK-50, you're darn

straight... I'd run and not walk to buy it.  



Mark Bitterlich

 



--

NC69666(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:56 am Post subject: opinions: 360 hp vs. 400 hp

Too much Horse Power is almost enough.    Gary. 

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T



--

petervs(at)knology.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:05 pm Post subject: opinions: 360 hp vs. 400 hp

More power is always better, but is it enough to really tell a difference.

If you think about it in terms of power to weight, getting 11% more power is

like the difference between the performance with and without a 200 lb

backseater. In my experience the yak52 with 360hp and the paddle blade prop

still out accelerates and out climbs the 400 HP CJ-6, but then cruise flight

is another story.



I think a lot will really depend on the engine prop combo and of course what

you are going to do with the plane. You'll never have the performance of a

SU29 in aerobatics.



I've been led to believe that the PF engines require more maintenance and

TBO is sooner, but I don't know that from personal experience.



I'd say you probably can't go wrong with more power in the long run.



Squatch



--

buddairbum(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:20 pm Post subject: opinions: 360 hp vs. 400 hp

It's of any help, I have a brand new, 1999 M-14P with American wires and B &

C pad, old style flange. It's never been unwrapped and has been in my hangar

here in AZ since new. $25K.



bd

On 4/17/08 11:13 AM, "Brian Lloyd" <brian-1927(at)lloyd.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I am getting ready to buy an engine for The Project. I am interested

 in opinions about desirability of an M14P vs. M14PF in a CJ6A. Here

 are my questions:

 

 1. Would you pay more for a CJ6A with an M14PF instead of an M14P?

 

 2. If so, how much more would it be worth to you?

 

 3. If you were looking at several different CJ6As, would 400hp attract

 you more than 360hp?

 

 Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

 brianl AT lloyd DOT com             Cameron Park, CA 95682

 +1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

 

 PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

 PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

threein60(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:00 pm Post subject: opinions: 360 hp vs. 400 hp

Just remember, there's always that point of diminishing return.  No matter how much power up strap on.  Sooner or later you hit that point where cost per HP, doesn't make sense and  doesn't buy you anymore speed!!

  Where is that point on a CJ??  I'll leave that to the big dogs with deep pockets to find out.



"Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:

  [quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" 



IMHO there is never too much power in an airplane. 



More power is going to be a deciding factor between airplanes. 



Yes, I would pay more for a PF vs a P equipped ANYTHING. 



What it would be worth to me is hard to estimate, but at least 5-10

thou. 



I don't  fit in a CJ so I don't look. If it were a YAK-50, you're darn

straight... I'd run and not walk to buy it. 



Mark Bitterlich

--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:17 pm Post subject: opinions: 360 hp vs. 400 hp

It's a matter of perspective.  The difference in speed between a CJ with

360 HP and one with 400 HP is going to be more or less minimal.

However, it's impact on climb rate, short field performance, and a host

of other things will always be impacted by more horsepower.  



Regardless, adding horsepower is most ALWAYS a matter of digging deep

into ones pockets. Remember, Brian did not ask what the feasability,

cost, or common sense was of ADDING the horsepower.  He asked if it

would impact people when they looked at an airplane so equipped versus

one not so equipped and that said... By how much?  



Pilots will always run to the airplane with the biggest motor.  Some may

not, but the ones that don't usually are not the owners of YAKS and

CJ's. 



Mark Bitterlich

--

cpayne(at)joimail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:31 pm Post subject: opinions: 360 hp vs. 400 hp

Ah,opinions! No facts need obsure the logic. For my money, an M-14P can be tuned to deliver great performance without going to an increased supercharger gear ratio. 



On a CJ, airframe "adjustments" can lower drag and realize good MPG. After all, at speeds above 175KTS, the ailerons get stiff. If you want a Mooney, buy one. That said, a Yak really seems to benefit from more power as it's primary mission is acro practice.



Craig Payne

Dabear(at)damned.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject: opinions: 360 hp vs. 400 hp

Mark,  There ya go again making generalizations.... 



You'll fit in a CJ.  Just have to make some small modifications.  I'll try 

and make the NC event and let you sit in mine.  Hopefully I'll have Barry's 

rudder ped mod by then.

DaBear



---

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:47 pm Post subject: opinions: 360 hp vs. 400 hp

On Apr 17, 2008, at 2:14 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,  

MALS-14 64E wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>



 It's a matter of perspective.  The difference in speed between a CJ  

 with

 360 HP and one with 400 HP is going to be more or less minimal.

 However, it's impact on climb rate, short field performance, and a  

 host

 of other things will always be impacted by more horsepower.



 Regardless, adding horsepower is most ALWAYS a matter of digging deep

 into ones pockets. Remember, Brian did not ask what the feasability,

 cost, or common sense was of ADDING the horsepower.  He asked if it

 would impact people when they looked at an airplane so equipped versus

 one not so equipped and that said... By how much?



 Pilots will always run to the airplane with the biggest motor.  Some  

 may

 not, but the ones that don't usually are not the owners of YAKS and

 CJ's.


	


Thanks to everyone who has responded.



Just so everyone understands, I am making the decision to equip The  

Project with an engine. There is no difference in cost to install an  

M14P and M14PF other than the difference in engine cost. Prop is the  

same too. So there are two questions:



1. Will I be able to get my money out of the airplane if I equip it  

with a Huosai?



2. Will I be able to get my money out of the airplane if I equip it  

with an M14P?



3. Will I be able to get my money out of the airplane if I equip it  

with an M14PF?



4. Which of the above configurations will be easier to sell?



BTW, the rest is up for discussion too but the airframe is first-rate.  

It is a 1967 airframe that has been totally disassembled and rebuilt  

from the ground up. It has Doug's 36gal wing center section aux fuel  

giving the aircraft 78 gal of fuel with stock wing tanks, more with  

bladders.



So all I am trying to decide now is how to finish it out so that it  

will be most salable. If someone is looking for a like-new CJ6A  

tailored to their tastes, contact me now and I will be happy to equip  

the aircraft the way you want it. BTW, it will NOT have the old  

instruments or electrical system. These were removed and discarded.  

Electrical system and panels will be brand-new and modern.



Likewise, since this CJ6A will be as light as it is possible to make  

it, it will also climb like a bat-out-of-hell. The big engine will  

also allow it to cruise effectively at the O2 altitudes when going  

cross-country.



So, the next big decision is the engine and that is why I am asking  

you guys.



Thanks.



 	  Quote: 	
		  


	


Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brianl AT lloyd DOT com             Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

buddairbum(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:55 pm Post subject: opinions: 360 hp vs. 400 hp

The PF engine is a question mark in some people's eyes. The P is not. Factor

that into the equation.

On 4/17/08 4:44 PM, "Brian Lloyd" <brian-1927(at)lloyd.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 On Apr 17, 2008, at 2:14 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,

 MALS-14 64E wrote:

> 

> Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>

> 

> It's a matter of perspective.  The difference in speed between a CJ

> with

> 360 HP and one with 400 HP is going to be more or less minimal.

> However, it's impact on climb rate, short field performance, and a

> host

> of other things will always be impacted by more horsepower.

> 

> Regardless, adding horsepower is most ALWAYS a matter of digging deep

> into ones pockets. Remember, Brian did not ask what the feasability,

> cost, or common sense was of ADDING the horsepower.  He asked if it

> would impact people when they looked at an airplane so equipped versus

> one not so equipped and that said... By how much?

> 

> Pilots will always run to the airplane with the biggest motor.  Some

> may

> not, but the ones that don't usually are not the owners of YAKS and

> CJ's.

 Thanks to everyone who has responded.

 Just so everyone understands, I am making the decision to equip The

 Project with an engine. There is no difference in cost to install an

 M14P and M14PF other than the difference in engine cost. Prop is the

 same too. So there are two questions:

 1. Will I be able to get my money out of the airplane if I equip it

 with a Huosai?

 2. Will I be able to get my money out of the airplane if I equip it

 with an M14P?

 3. Will I be able to get my money out of the airplane if I equip it

 with an M14PF?

 4. Which of the above configurations will be easier to sell?

 BTW, the rest is up for discussion too but the airframe is first-rate.

 It is a 1967 airframe that has been totally disassembled and rebuilt

 from the ground up. It has Doug's 36gal wing center section aux fuel

 giving the aircraft 78 gal of fuel with stock wing tanks, more with

 bladders.

 So all I am trying to decide now is how to finish it out so that it

 will be most salable. If someone is looking for a like-new CJ6A

 tailored to their tastes, contact me now and I will be happy to equip

 the aircraft the way you want it. BTW, it will NOT have the old

 instruments or electrical system. These were removed and discarded.

 Electrical system and panels will be brand-new and modern.

 Likewise, since this CJ6A will be as light as it is possible to make

 it, it will also climb like a bat-out-of-hell. The big engine will

 also allow it to cruise effectively at the O2 altitudes when going

 cross-country.

 So, the next big decision is the engine and that is why I am asking

 you guys.

 Thanks.

> 

 Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

 brianl AT lloyd DOT com             Cameron Park, CA 95682

 +1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

 PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

 PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:09 pm Post subject: opinions: 360 hp vs. 400 hp

Brian,

IMHO, here are my answers.

1. Yes

2. No

3. No

4. 1

Dennis



---

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:37 pm Post subject: opinions: 360 hp vs. 400 hp

On Apr 17, 2008, at 7:06 PM, A. Dennis Savarese wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 >



 Brian,

 IMHO, here are my answers.

 1. Yes

 2. No

 3. No

 4. 1

 Dennis


	


Thank you for that succinct reply Dennis.



--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

napeone

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 36
Location: Birmingham, Al.

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:17 am Post subject: Re: opinions: 360 hp vs. 400 hp

Increasing the horse power in an engine simply by inceasing the boost is not the best way to go. Especially in an aircraft engine.

David H.

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:42 am Post subject: Re: opinions: 360 hp vs. 400 hp

Brian,



I know absolutely nothing about Yaks, their values, performance, saleability but....



I put an M14 PF on my plane. It was the 2nd Radial Rocket flying. The prototype has an M14P on it. In side by side trials I knocked the snot out of the prototype in Takeoff and climb. In cruise I can choose to burn more fuel and outrun them or I can throttle back and cruise along side the prototype at the same fuel burn.



Maintenance is no different. The cost differential between the 2 was primarily adding the electric start.



Since I built my plane 7 more Radial Rocket kits have been delivered ALL of them with M14 PFs. Not a single person considered the 360 hp  and happily paid the price differential.



As far as increasing the boost "not being the best way to go" for additional HP I think the compression ratio is low enough and the engines robust enough that that is not an issue.



This is a fairly penalty free HP increase and in my opinion will certainly make your plane more marketable and noticeably a better performer.



The other thing I did to my engine was remove the pressure carb and put on an Airflow Performance Throttle body with manual mixture control.

It has a half inch greater diameter barrel than the carb, is much simpler, eliminates the need for carb heat and allows me to control the mixture.

_________________
Milt

shankeroid(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:05 am Post subject: opinions: 360 hp vs. 400 hp

I've got the standard 285 in my  CJ and I love it.  But, its a stock CJ with "nothing special" other than it  runs great all the time.  I think the popular setup is a CJ with the M-14P  and 3 bladed prop.  It looks damn good and has to "power back" in formation  flight to allow everyone else to play (just ask Forrest.)  I think that's  "enough" power!

     The PF is a relatively unknown  entity at this time, but since you are building a "high end" project, it may  attract a "high end" buyer come sell time.  I think the middle-of-the-road  option (M-14P/MT prop) is the most bang-for-your-buck right  now.

     Brian, why are you already  thinking of selling "The Project"?  Once you get it tweaked just right, you  ain't never gonna sell!

  

 Jim Shanks

    [quote][b]

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: opinions: 360 hp vs. 400 hp

On Apr 18, 2008, at 6:17 AM, napeone wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Increasing the horse power in an engine simply by inceasing the  

 boost is not the best way to go. Especially in an aircraft engine.


	


Well, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. The M14PF has a good  

record for reliability. I suspect that the builders have done their  

homework.



Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brianl AT lloyd DOT com             Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:54 am Post subject: opinions: 360 hp vs. 400 hp

On Apr 18, 2008, at 8:58 AM, Jim Shanks wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		       I've got the standard 285 in my CJ and I love it.  But, its a  

 stock CJ with "nothing special" other than it runs great all the  

 time.  I think the popular setup is a CJ with the M-14P and 3 bladed  

 prop.  It looks damn good and has to "power back" in formation  

 flight to allow everyone else to play (just ask Forrest.)  I think  

 that's "enough" power!


	


There is never such a thing as too much power. 



 	  Quote: 	
		       The PF is a relatively unknown entity at this time, but since  

 you are building a "high end" project, it may attract a "high end"  

 buyer come sell time.  I think the middle-of-the-road option (M-14P/ 

 MT prop) is the most bang-for-your-buck right now.


	


OK.



 	  Quote: 	
		       Brian, why are you already thinking of selling "The Project"?   

 Once you get it tweaked just right, you ain't never gonna sell!


	


Thanks for the input Jim. I have a fair amount of time in the CJ  

(about 800 hours) and in the Yak-52 (about 100 hours). I am pretty  

familiar with the aircraft. While I think that the CJ6A is a fantastic  

airplane, it no longer really meets my needs for the type of flying I  

am now doing.



So, I want to build "The Airplane" for someone out there who wants one  

done "just right".



Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brianl AT lloyd DOT com             Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: opinions: 360 hp vs. 400 hp

Please define what you mean by "the best way to go".  The word "best"

needs to be qualified.  As in: "Best" from what exact perspective?  I'm

curious as to your particular perspective simply because when money was

no object at all, every engine designer that I've even known has used

some type of external air compressor to pump more air and fuel into a

given engine.  Across the board.  I've even seen a lawn mower engine

with a blower on it.  That aside, please explain your statement since it

tends to disagree with most every engine designer and builder and their

products...that ever put their name on a sign post.  Most especially

aircraft engine designers.  



Mark Bitterlich

 



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:16 am Post subject: opinions: 360 hp vs. 400 hp

A case of beer says that I will not even come close to being able to fit

in it, let alone FLY it.  



Mark



P.s.  I'd love to lose.  

 



--

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