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AB_Summit
Joined: 16 Jul 2007
Posts: 23
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 Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:36 pm Post subject: Canadian amateur-built rules - maximum empty weight for 701 |
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Hi everyone,
Just doing some studying and research while I wait for my 701 plans to arrive and I discovered this formula to calculate the maximum empty weight allowed. I am wondering if I am interpreting this correctly.
According this formula, if I used a 90HP Suzuki 1.3L, in a 701 with a gross weight of 1100 lbs, I would be allowed a max. empty weight of 633 lbs in order to be legal in the amateur built category. I'm thinking it might be tough to achieve that weight using anything other than a Rotax engine.
Here's how I arrived at that 633 lb figure:
1100 - (175 + (175 x 1.414) + (90 x 0.5)) = ~633 lbs.
Here's a link to the rule and the formula:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part5/Standards/549/sub-b.htm#549.107
I'm just wondering if this rule is enforced because if it is, it would rule out a lot of alternative engine choices for Canadians building in the Amateur-built category.
Would there be any hope of getting a Suzuki powered 701 to weigh less than 633 lbs empty?
Thanks
Randy
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m.l.marcotte(at)sympatico
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject: Canadian amateur-built rules - maximum empty weight for 701 |
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Variable "a" is the number of passenger seats other than the pilot's seat
(click on TC's definition right after the formula) and should therefore be 1
instead of 2 that you have used. The max empty weight then becomes 705
which should be much easier to reach.
---
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AB_Summit
Joined: 16 Jul 2007
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 4:49 pm Post subject: Re: Canadian amateur-built rules - maximum empty weight for |
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Thanks, that makes more sense, I missed the fact that the pilot's seat isn't counted as a passenger's seat. 705 lbs should be doable.
Thanks
Randy
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dougsnash
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 282
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:59 am Post subject: Canadian amateur-built rules - maximum empty weight for 701 |
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Randy, you can set your gross weight at anything you
like within reason. You don't have to use the
additional GWT but it will take care of the math issue
for you. I would recommend using 1200lb as your GWT
as that is the maximum gross weight allowed for the
ULTRA permit. That way if you ever end up on floats,
you'll still have a little room in the calculations.
There should be a formula on your plans for adjusting
the load limits for opperation at higher gross weights
if you want to opperate at the higher weight.
Hope this helps with your calculations
Doug MacDonald
CH-701 Scratch Builder
NW Ontario, Canada
Do not Archive
--- AB_Summit <rengler(at)live.ca> wrote:
| Quote: |
<rengler(at)live.ca>
Hi everyone,
Just doing some studying and research while I wait
for my 701 plans to arrive and I discovered this
formula to calculate the maximum empty weight
allowed. I am wondering if I am interpreting this
correctly.
According this formula, if I used a 90HP Suzuki
1.3L, in a 701 with a gross weight of 1100 lbs, I
would be allowed a max. empty weight of 633 lbs in
order to be legal in the amateur built category. I'm
thinking it might be tough to achieve that weight
using anything other than a Rotax engine.
Here's how I arrived at that 633 lb figure:
1100 - (175 + (175 x 1.414) + (90 x 0.5)) = ~633
lbs.
Here's a link to the rule and the formula:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part5/Standards/549/sub-b.htm#549.107
|
| Quote: |
I'm just wondering if this rule is enforced because
if it is, it would rule out a lot of alternative
engine choices for Canadians building in the
Amateur-built category.
Would there be any hope of getting a Suzuki powered
701 to weigh less than 633 lbs empty?
Thanks
Randy
|
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AB_Summit
Joined: 16 Jul 2007
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: Re: Canadian amateur-built rules - maximum empty weight for |
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| dougsnash wrote: | Randy, you can set your gross weight at anything you
like within reason. You don't have to use the
additional GWT but it will take care of the math issue
for you. I would recommend using 1200lb as your GWT
|
Does that apply if I want to build in the amateur-built category as well, or only if I build under the ultralight category? I heard somewhere that it is difficult in Canada to get approval to increase your gross weight above what the designer intended if you build in the amateur built category.
Thanks
Randy
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dougsnash
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 282
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:38 am Post subject: Canadian amateur-built rules - maximum empty weight for 701 |
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I am refering to the Amateur Built catagory. The
reason I mentioned the Ultralight catagory is purly
for ease of getting a pilot permit/lic. Note that I
said "Reasonable" increase. When I filed my Letter of
Intent with the MD-RA I listed 1200lbs as my gross
weight and they did not even think twice about it.
Although, I haven't had my final inspection yet so who
knows what will be said at that time.
One other point is that you have to do your Climb Test
at gross weight. Therefore you don't want to get too
carried away.
Doug MacDonald
CH-701 Scratch Builder
NW Ontario, Canada
Do Not Archive
| Quote: |
Does that apply if I want to build in the
amateur-built category as well, or only if I build
under the ultralight category? I heard somewhere
that it is difficult in Canada to get approval to
increase your gross weight above what the designer
intended if you build in the amateur built category.
Thanks
Randy
|
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infow(at)mts.net
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:14 am Post subject: Canadian amateur-built rules - maximum empty weight for 701 |
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Randy...
If you belong to COPA... they have guidelines for Amateur aircraft and Ultra lights... to access the guidelines you have to be a member of COPA!
R.D.(Ron) Leclerc
CH701 Plans(Scrap) Builder #7-6699
Porsche Power Belted Redrive
Winnipeg, MB Canada
infow(at)mts.net
4/21/2008 12:09:01 PM
***************************************
This E-Mail scanned with AVG Anti-Virus Ver: 7.5!
***************************************
The COPA Guide to Amateur-Builts
13th Edition – September 2006
Copyright Canadian Owners and Pilots Association 2006
The Canadian Owners & Pilots Association
207 - 75 Albert Street, Ottawa, Ontario K1P 5E7 Canada
Tel: 613-236-4901 · Fax: 613-236-8646 · Email: copa(at)copanational.org
Website: www.copanational.org
Contents
Introduction
Scope Of This Guide
Reviewing The Rules – CAR STD 507 Appendix C
Canadian versus US Amateur-Built Rules
The 51% Rule
Mass Production Of Aircraft
Selecting A Design
Fly Before You Buy!
Construction Times
Options - Design Your Own Versus Plans Versus Kits Versus Buying Used
Aeroplanes
Gliders
Powered Gliders
Helicopters
Gyroplanes
Gyrogliders
Balloons
Airships
Some Warnings About Designs
Fixed Pitch Helicopters
Pressurized Turbine?
MD-RA’s Role
Construction Outside Canada
Why do Some Aircraft Not Get Finished?
Documentation
Weight And Balance
Airworthiness Directives (ADs)
Design Changes
Installing Parts
Signing the Maintenance Release
Parts Warrantees
Registration & Markings
Insurance
Work-in-Progress Insurance
Taxes (At Registration And Importation)
Flight Requirements
Test Flying
Initial Operating Restrictions
Final Operating Restrictions
IFR Amateur-Builts
Aerobatic Amateur-Builts
Maintaining Your Amateur-Built
Repairs and Modifications to Amateur-Builts
Handheld Fire Extinguishers
Licences to Fly Amateur-Builts
Type Ratings
Canadian Amateur-Builts In The USA
Selling Your Amateur-Built
Buying a Used Amateur-Built
Importing an Amateur-Built
Join a Club
Aircraft Type Clubs
Amateur-Builts Versus Ultralights
Building An Ultralight Kit As An Amateur-Built
Can Certified Aircraft Become Amateur-Builts?
Can Existing Ultralights Become Amateur-Builts?
Appendix A - References For Building
Appendix B - Diary of an Amateur Test Pilot by Ken Beanlands
Appendix C - Regulations for Amateur-built Aircraft
CAR STD 507 Appendix C
CAR STD 507 Appendix D
Transport Canada Maintenance Policy Letter 13
The COPA Guide to Amateur-Builts
:-{
:-{
:-{
:-{ dougsnash wrote:
:-{:-{ Randy, you can set your gross weight at anything you like
:-{:-{ within reason. You don't have to use the
:-{:-{ additional GWT but it will take care of the math issue for
:-{:-{ you. I would recommend using 1200lb as your GWT
:-{:-{
:-{
:-{ Does that apply if I want to build in the amateur-built category
:-{ as well, or only if I build under the ultralight category? I
:-{ heard somewhere that it is difficult in Canada to get approval to
:-{ increase your gross weight above what the designer intended if
:-{ you build in the amateur built category.
:-{
:-{ Thanks
:-{ Randy
:-{
:-{
:-{ Read this topic online here:
:-{
:-{ http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178137#178137
:-{
:-{
:-{ = - The Zenith-List Email Forum -
:-{ much much more:
:-{ - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
:-{ > http://forums.matronics.com
:-{ your generous support!
:-{ -> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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infow(at)mts.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:23 am Post subject: Canadian amateur-built rules - maximum empty weight for 701 |
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Some more Randy...
An exert from the COPA guidelines:
Ron
*****
Amateur-Builts Versus Ultralights
Many lighter amateur-built airplane designs can also be built and registered as ultralights.
If the aircraft is under 1200 lbs gross weight and has a Landing Configuration Stall Speed (VSO) of 39 knots or less then it can be built as a basic ultralight aeroplane (BULA) instead of amateur-built. There are pros and cons to this approach:
Pros:
Ø BULAs do not to be inspected by any outside agency, thus saving money on inspections
Ø BULAs do not have any maintenance standards
Ø BULAs do not have any design standards
Ø BULAs do not have to carry some equipment that amateur-builts do, like:
o ELTs
o Operating checklist or placards
o Aeronautical charts and publications
o Fire extinguisher
o Timepiece
o Flashlight
o First aid kit
Ø BULAs do not have to meet VFR instrument and equipment requirements
Ø BULAs can be used commercially for flight training and hang glider towing
Ø BULAs have simplified paperwork requirements – C of R only required, no Special C of A or logbooks required
Ø BULAs can be purchased new and completely assembled – no 51% rule
Ø BULAs do not need to comply with Destination Fuel requirements (destination plus 30 minutes worth of fuel)
Ø BULAs are not required to carry survival equipment
Ø BULAs do not need to file an Annual Airworthiness Information Report
Cons:
Ø BULAs cannot carry passengers (however two pilots can fly together, provided they both have licences that would let them fly the aircraft. Also a student and instructor can fly together)
Ø You need to wear a helmet in a BULA
Ø BULAs have restrictions on airspace – they cannot be flown in controlled terminal airspace.
Another alternative is that some kit aircraft under 1232 lbs and with a VSO of 39 knots or less can be built as an advanced ultralight aircraft (AULA), if the kit manufacturer has declared that the aircraft complies with the LAMAC publication
Design Standards for Advanced Ultralight Aeroplanes.
As in the case of the BULAs there are pros and cons in comparison to amateur-builts:
Pros:
Ø AULAs do not need to be inspected by an outside agency, unless the factory requires it (some do and there is usually a fee if they do)
Ø AULAs have simple maintenance standards (they must follow the factory approved standard)
Ø AULAs do not require logbooks, just maintenance records
Ø AULAs do not have to carry some equipment that amateur-builts do, like:
o ELTs
o Operating checklist or placards
o Aeronautical charts and publications
o Fire extinguisher
o Timepiece
o Flashlight
o First aid kit
Ø AULAs can be used commercially for flight training and hang glider towing
Ø AULAs have simplified paperwork requirements – C of R only required, no Special C of A or logbooks required
Ø AULAs can be purchased new and completely assembled – no 51% rule
Ø AULAs do not need to comply with Destination Fuel requirements (destination plus 30 minutes worth of fuel)
Ø AULAs are not required to carry survival equipment
Ø AULAs do not need to file an Annual Airworthiness Information Report
Cons:
Ø Modifications require written authority from the kit manufacturer – if they go out of business then no further modifications are allowed
Ø AULAs must be built from a kit or sold completed, no building from plans allowed
Ø Manufacturers may issue “Mandatory Actions” similar to ADs for certified aircraft.
For more information on ultralights see The COPA Guide to Ultralights.
Building An Ultralight Kit As An Amateur-Built
Most aircraft kits that fit the ultralight category can also be built as amateur-built aircraft. Since the amateur-built rules allow bigger and heavier aircraft than the ultralight category, any kit that would qualify as an ultralight will fit the basic amateur-built definition.
Some of these kits will also require a 51% determination, if they have not been assessed at the factory request before. See the section on 51% determination for more information.
Many Canadian kit manufacturers produce different versions of their kits for the ultralight and amateur-built markets. These ones are easy to assess; they will usually require no changes to be built as amateur-builts.
Other manufacturers produce their aircraft strictly for the Canadian ultralight category. These may need some serious changes to fit them into the amateur-built category. The Canadian amateur-built rules and construction practices differ from normal ultralight construction methods and so there will probably be a requirement that some of the materials be changed to fit the aircraft into the amateur-built category
:-{
:-{
:-{
:-{ dougsnash wrote:
:-{:-{ Randy, you can set your gross weight at anything you like
:-{:-{ within reason. You don't have to use the
:-{:-{ additional GWT but it will take care of the math issue for
:-{:-{ you. I would recommend using 1200lb as your GWT
:-{:-{
:-{
:-{ Does that apply if I want to build in the amateur-built category
:-{ as well, or only if I build under the ultralight category? I
:-{ heard somewhere that it is difficult in Canada to get approval to
:-{ increase your gross weight above what the designer intended if
:-{ you build in the amateur built category.
:-{
:-{ Thanks
:-{ Randy
:-{
:-{
:-{ Read this topic online here:
:-{
:-{ http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178137#178137
:-{
:-{
:-{ = - The Zenith-List Email Forum -
:-{ much much more:
:-{ - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
:-{ > http://forums.matronics.com
:-{ your generous support!
:-{ -> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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