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210HM

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dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:42 am Post subject: 210HM

The preliminary NTSB  report is availaable.

    [quote][b]

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:44 am Post subject: 210HM

If you want to see  graphically the track, check www.flightware.com and zoom in on the end  of the track by resizing your browser to 200%.

    [quote][b]

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:09 am Post subject: 210HM

This link may make it easier to get the NTSB report:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 080422X00528&key=1



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

David McNeill wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   If you want to see graphically the track, check www.flightware.com 

 <http://www.flightware.com> and zoom in on the end of the track by 

 resizing your browser to 200%.

orchidman

Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 277
Location: Oklahoma City - KRCE

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:20 am Post subject: Re: 210HM

I believe the link to the track is www.flightaware.com and Tim's link is also broken. Guess we have fat fingers today

_________________
Gary Blankenbiller
RV10 - # 40674
(N2GB Flying)

Andy Turner

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 31
Location: Clarion, PA

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:24 pm Post subject: Re: 210HM

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20080422X00528&key=1

_________________
Andy Turner

Lew Gallagher

Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 402
Location: Greenville , SC

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: 210HM

Thanks Tim, I never would have found it ... now I'm not sure I'm glad I did.  I still love building, but my curiosity about flying is waning.  Hopefully I'm just temporarily discouraged.  What a loss.



Here's Tim's unbroken link:



http://www.ntsb.gov:80/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20080422X00528&key=1



Here's the address of the flight (you may have to copy and paste it):



http://flightaware.com/live/flight_track_bigmap.rvt?ident=N210HM;airports=M54+KEUF;key=20d4df5c6845e46bcf7468a922905557f369ebd5;keytime=1208981350;height=340;width=400;departuretime=1207580400;arrivaltime=1207585140

 

Later, -Lew

_________________
non-pilot
crazy about building
NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549
Fly off completed !

rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:40 pm Post subject: 210HM

Lew;

We all miss our fellow builders who have perished in the last year. I would 

encourage you to read some of Tim's great articles on what he has done for 

his family in the plane these last couple of years 

http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/index.html  and remember people die every day; 

some doing what they enjoy, some while waiting for that day they would do 

something they wanted to do and some completely unexpectedly taking out the 

garbage they hated doing.. I too will go one day, I know where I'm going and 

I'm pretty excited about it, but in the meantime I want to do what I always 

wanted (build a plane) and if I die on my maiden flight, I'll be really 

bummed but I did it doing something I was excited about.. the few we have 

lost this last year perished doing what they loved..

I encourage you to think of all those trips to meet many of us at fly-in's, 

in Oregon for Van's open house, etc.. there is so much to get excited about 

with flying..

Pascal



--------------------------------------------------

From: "Lew Gallagher" <lewgall(at)charter.net>

Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 1:25 PM

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: 210HM



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Thanks Tim, I never would have found it ... now I'm not sure I'm glad I 

 did.  I still love building, but my curiosity about flying is waning. 

 Hopefully I'm just temporarily discouraged.  What a loss.



 Here's Tim's unbroken link:



 http://www.ntsb.gov:80/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 080422X00528&key=1



 Here's the address of the flight (you may have to copy and paste it):



 http://flightaware.com/live/flight_track_bigmap.rvt?ident=N210HM;airports=M54+KEUF;key d4df5c6845e46bcf7468a922905557f369ebd5;keytime=1208981350;height=340;width=400;departuretime=1207580400;arrivaltime=1207585140



 Later, -Lew



 --------

 non-pilot

 crazy about building

 NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549

 doors almost finished, pants on, WHEW!





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178741#178741

GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject: 210HM

In a message dated 4/23/2008 3:30:44 PM Central Daylight Time,  lewgall(at)charter.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Later,    -Lew

	


 

 Lew...the idea in flying is to learn from others mistakes and have your own  set of limits...not always the published figures on plates...IMHO

  

 Patrick



Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

  [quote][b]

daveleikam(at)wi.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: 210HM

Ditto!



Dave Leikam



do not archive

---

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject: 210HM

Lew, Pascal, and all,

Nothing I have to say is new at all, but I thought I'd share

my feelings.  To me, all things involve risk, so I don't really

view the fact that it has risk as making the activity something

I'm averse to.  I've never been skydiving (REAL skydiving), but

it drives me crazy to hear about people like my own brother

in law, who would LOVE to go skydiving, but simply won't because

his insurance wouldn't pay if he died.  You're put on the earth

to LIVE life, and to me, it's all about what you're passionate

about...and fulfilling your dreams.  There is a LOT you can

do, in ANY activity, to increase your odds, but in almost

ALL activities there is nothing you can do to guarantee your

safety.  So, you simply live life to it's fullest, enjoying

the things you're passionate about....and you do what you can

to minimize your risks.

A couple days ago, I wanted to fill in the AOPA survey and

the question "What do you think is the most significant

deterrent to learning how to fly, besides cost?"  I tell you,

I was totally stumped.  So I asked a co-worker, who's expressed

interest, but never taken the plunge.  She said "Probably

fear, that they won't be able to control the plane, and that

they'll hurt or kill themselves or someone else."  I was

stunned at first.  I couldn't believe it.   To me, I always

had the passion, the dream, and the desire.  The thought that

I would not be able to do it safely never entered my mind.

To me, if other people can fly planes, then because I WANT

to fly planes so bad, I can fly planes.  After pondering

it for a while, I agreed with her and I filled in the survey.

I just didn't realize that some people let their fears

crush their passion like that, or perhaps their passion

wasn't as overwhelming to quench their fears.

So assuming that a person indeed has the passion in them

to partake in flying, my feeling is that those that

TRULY have that passion for excellence will also strive

for developing the knowledge and skill required to do

the flying they want to do.  For me, one thing led to

another and I yearned for more.  I love the complexity,

I love the challenge, I love flying in and out of IMC.

I love the clear sky days, and I love the low drizzly

days.  But I also want to do it right, and be safe.  I

have a fear in me, developed from reading all of the

negative examples that we have...."Aftermath"...."I learned

about flying from that", and so on...  I put myself in

the cockpit when I read those stories, and I wonder...

what would be the way to prevent that situation?  There

are many good people and good pilots who did some pretty

not-so-hot things that led to their demise.  I'm no better

than them, but because they are my teacher, in some

respect, I hope to use them as a source of guidance,

and let them help me develop self-control.  I don't want

to have the same fate, so when I fly, I constantly

analyze the safety of what I'm doing when I have those

critical decisions, and I remind myself what the cost

is if I fail.  It's very humbling.  But, the risk

does not kill my desire...because I KNOW....there is

no reason for me to meet the same fate....it's ALL IN

MY HANDS.

That leads me to re-tell a story.  I had many good

opportunities for instilling respect and fear into

myself in actual IMC during my Instrument rating

training.  I genuinely was NOT ready, 20 hours into

my training, to keep myself alive in IMC...and I knew

that.  But, I kept flying with my pals....all CFI's,

in actual IMC and under the hood, to build confidence.

Finally the day came...well after obtaining that ticket,

for me to go fly in IMC on a perfect day.  No reason,

just was the perfect 700' overcast day to go test

myself with, ... HA! ... that same risk-averse brother

in law of mine.  I climbed out into the clouds, and

as soon as I was in IMC, I thought to myself "Man,

did YOU do it now....Now you're stuck...and you can't

get out of this with any help from anyone else...it's

only YOU who can bring you both down alive and safe."

I was genuinely fearful....but reminded myself that

I knew what to do...it was only executing those things

that I needed to do properly.  The airplane was up to

it, if only I was too.  Obviously, it went just fine,

or I'd not be here today.  But, still to this day,

when I'm entering the clouds, I have similar feelings,

because I respect what I'm doing as "highly challenging"

and important to do well.

In reading the NTSB report, one cannot help to question

the pilot(s).  It's our nature.  "Why didn't they just

fly straight and level and get their bearings?"  "Why

didn't they just hit the ONE button on their Autopilot

(assuming a TruTrak) that gives them instant heading

and altitude hold?"  "Why didn't they ask for vectors

and just fly headings and vectors until they got to

some better conditions?"  They're gone, so it's not

dishonoring them to ask....they're now our teachers.

What is obvious is that mistakes were made.  Now, for

those who choose to fly in conditions like they were,

it's your job to find out what mistakes, and NOT make

them yourself.  Remember them, and honor them by

bringing your craft and crew home safe, every time.

What can you do to help?  Well, I for one, just did

an early BFR and IPC yesterday.  Nothing wrong with

doing a AFR instead of a BFR right? (No, there is

no such thing as an Annual Flight Review...but hey,

it never hurts.)  I want to make sure that not only

am I legal on paper, but that someone else critiques

me too.  I don't WANT him to go easy on me.  I did

some things and he asked if I wanted ATP standards

or normal.  I chose ATP.  I WANT to be tested.

As Phil mentioned, you get rusty and more fearful if

you don't fly often, so FLY OFTEN.  This activity

isn't for the occasional pilot...one who goes up for

some touch and goes every 4 months.  Stick with it...

get some time every month, even if it's only an hour.

Can you do that?  I'm thinking that if you truly have

the passion, you'll make it happen.  Flying isn't

for everyone...but anyone with the passion can make

it work for them.

The one thing that does concern me greatly is the

number of ZERO time pilots that are building RV-10's.

My CFII yesterday mentioned, when we discussed the

3 fatal RV-10 accidents, that we're very similar to

the Cirrus trends, but we're very similar planes.

He said the average Cirrus owner has something like

74 hours (unverified), and we both lamented at how

shockingly inadequate (sorry, really, I am) that can

be, for flying a plane with such performance.  Sure, it

flies slow if throttle back, but it's slippery, and

it's light, and it demands respect.  So, for those

out there that are very low or zero time pilots, please,

get in that plane with a CFI and put LOTS of time on

it if you insist on flying an RV-10 right away. LOTS

of time.  You will never progress faster by any other

means than if you put on a LOT of time over a short

time span.  If you can fly 200 hours in a year, you're

going to retain a lot more skill for many years, than

the guy who flies 20-45 hours a year.  So look at it

as an investment, and just fork over for the avgas

and keep that plane in the air for a MINIMUM of 100

hours in the first year.  The year I got my instrument

ticket I put in 100+ hours, and it was my biggest

year of skill growth ever...and it was the most

retained, at that.  My first year in my RV-10 I put

on 200 hours.  It's amazing how much comfort that brings

you.

So, if you truly have the passion, these accidents, and

NTSB reports won't stun you and set you back.  They'll

make you think, and make you strive for more. And

you'll still gladly jump in the plane and go for a flight,

because you'll know that it CAN happen to you, but only

if you don't get out there and develop good skills,

and retain them.  Anyone can fly a plane and bring it

back to earth with everyone alive.  You just have to

NOT do the things that people do wrong....so learn from

the others who paid the price for your lesson...and

develop respect for flying and be safe.

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

(sorry, I'll try for more brevity on the next few posts

to make up for this one.) 

Pascal wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Lew;

 We all miss our fellow builders who have perished in the last year. I 

 would encourage you to read some of Tim's great articles on what he has 

 done for his family in the plane these last couple of years 

 http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/index.html  and remember people die every 

 day; some doing what they enjoy, some while waiting for that day they 

 would do something they wanted to do and some completely unexpectedly 

 taking out the garbage they hated doing.. I too will go one day, I know 

 where I'm going and I'm pretty excited about it, but in the meantime I 

 want to do what I always wanted (build a plane) and if I die on my 

 maiden flight, I'll be really bummed but I did it doing something I was 

 excited about.. the few we have lost this last year perished doing what 

 they loved..

 I encourage you to think of all those trips to meet many of us at 

 fly-in's, in Oregon for Van's open house, etc.. there is so much to get 

 excited about with flying..

 Pascal

 --------------------------------------------------

 From: "Lew Gallagher" <lewgall(at)charter.net>

 Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 1:25 PM

 To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

 Subject: Re: 210HM

> 

>

> Thanks Tim, I never would have found it ... now I'm not sure I'm glad 

> I did.  I still love building, but my curiosity about flying is 

> waning. Hopefully I'm just temporarily discouraged.  What a loss.

>

> Here's Tim's unbroken link:

>

> http://www.ntsb.gov:80/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 080422X00528&key=1

>

> Here's the address of the flight (you may have to copy and paste it):

>

> http://flightaware.com/live/flight_track_bigmap.rvt?ident=N210HM;airports=M54+KEUF;key d4df5c6845e46bcf7468a922905557f369ebd5;keytime=1208981350;height=340;width=400;departuretime=1207580400;arrivaltime=1207585140 

> Later, -Lew

>

> --------

> non-pilot

> crazy about building

> NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549

> doors almost finished, pants on, WHEW!

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178741#178741

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:28 pm Post subject: 210HM

That's some of the best advice an insight I have ever read Tim.



Rick Sked

40185

do not archive

---

bbreckenridge(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: 210HM

Word for word, a very encouraging and motivating statement of passion guarded by wisdom.  Thanks Tim.  I am one of those low timers working on my IFR ticket and loving every minute of it, yet nervous of the day when I'm on my own and every move is up to me.  Good words.  Keep 'em coming! 



Bruce

40018



On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 7:10 PM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)>

   

 Lew, Pascal, and all,

 

 Nothing I have to say is new at all, but I thought I'd share

 my feelings.  To me, all things involve risk, so I don't really

 view the fact that it has risk as making the activity something

 I'm averse to.  I've never been skydiving (REAL skydiving), but

 it drives me crazy to hear about people like my own brother

 in law, who would LOVE to go skydiving, but simply won't because

 his insurance wouldn't pay if he died.  You're put on the earth

 to LIVE life, and to me, it's all about what you're passionate

 about...and fulfilling your dreams.  There is a LOT you can

 do, in ANY activity, to increase your odds, but in almost

 ALL activities there is nothing you can do to guarantee your

 safety.  So, you simply live life to it's fullest, enjoying

 the things you're passionate about....and you do what you can

 to minimize your risks.

 

 A couple days ago, I wanted to fill in the AOPA survey and

 the question "What do you think is the most significant

 deterrent to learning how to fly, besides cost?"  I tell you,

 I was totally stumped.  So I asked a co-worker, who's expressed

 interest, but never taken the plunge.  She said "Probably

 fear, that they won't be able to control the plane, and that

 they'll hurt or kill themselves or someone else."  I was

 stunned at first.  I couldn't believe it.   To me, I always

 had the passion, the dream, and the desire.  The thought that

 I would not be able to do it safely never entered my mind.

 To me, if other people can fly planes, then because I WANT

 to fly planes so bad, I can fly planes.  After pondering

 it for a while, I agreed with her and I filled in the survey.

 I just didn't realize that some people let their fears

 crush their passion like that, or perhaps their passion

 wasn't as overwhelming to quench their fears.

 

 So assuming that a person indeed has the passion in them

 to partake in flying, my feeling is that those that

 TRULY have that passion for excellence will also strive

 for developing the knowledge and skill required to do

 the flying they want to do.  For me, one thing led to

 another and I yearned for more.  I love the complexity,

 I love the challenge, I love flying in and out of IMC.

 I love the clear sky days, and I love the low drizzly

 days.  But I also want to do it right, and be safe.  I

 have a fear in me, developed from reading all of the

 negative examples that we have...."Aftermath"...."I learned

 about flying from that", and so on...  I put myself in

 the cockpit when I read those stories, and I wonder...

 what would be the way to prevent that situation?  There

 are many good people and good pilots who did some pretty

 not-so-hot things that led to their demise.  I'm no better

 than them, but because they are my teacher, in some

 respect, I hope to use them as a source of guidance,

 and let them help me develop self-control.  I don't want

 to have the same fate, so when I fly, I constantly

 analyze the safety of what I'm doing when I have those

 critical decisions, and I remind myself what the cost

 is if I fail.  It's very humbling.  But, the risk

 does not kill my desire...because I KNOW....there is

 no reason for me to meet the same fate....it's ALL IN

 MY HANDS.

 

 That leads me to re-tell a story.  I had many good

 opportunities for instilling respect and fear into

 myself in actual IMC during my Instrument rating

 training.  I genuinely was NOT ready, 20 hours into

 my training, to keep myself alive in IMC...and I knew

 that.  But, I kept flying with my pals....all CFI's,

 in actual IMC and under the hood, to build confidence.

 Finally the day came...well after obtaining that ticket,

 for me to go fly in IMC on a perfect day.  No reason,

 just was the perfect 700' overcast day to go test

 myself with, ... HA! ... that same risk-averse brother

 in law of mine.  I climbed out into the clouds, and

 as soon as I was in IMC, I thought to myself "Man,

 did YOU do it now....Now you're stuck...and you can't

 get out of this with any help from anyone else...it's

 only YOU who can bring you both down alive and safe."

 I was genuinely fearful....but reminded myself that

 I knew what to do...it was only executing those things

 that I needed to do properly.  The airplane was up to

 it, if only I was too.  Obviously, it went just fine,

 or I'd not be here today.  But, still to this day,

 when I'm entering the clouds, I have similar feelings,

 because I respect what I'm doing as "highly challenging"

 and important to do well.

 

 In reading the NTSB report, one cannot help to question

 the pilot(s).  It's our nature.  "Why didn't they just

 fly straight and level and get their bearings?"  "Why

 didn't they just hit the ONE button on their Autopilot

 (assuming a TruTrak) that gives them instant heading

 and altitude hold?"  "Why didn't they ask for vectors

 and just fly headings and vectors until they got to

 some better conditions?"  They're gone, so it's not

 dishonoring them to ask....they're now our teachers.

 What is obvious is that mistakes were made.  Now, for

 those who choose to fly in conditions like they were,

 it's your job to find out what mistakes, and NOT make

 them yourself.  Remember them, and honor them by

 bringing your craft and crew home safe, every time.

 

 What can you do to help?  Well, I for one, just did

 an early BFR and IPC yesterday.  Nothing wrong with

 doing a AFR instead of a BFR right? (No, there is

 no such thing as an Annual Flight Review...but hey,

 it never hurts.)  I want to make sure that not only

 am I legal on paper, but that someone else critiques

 me too.  I don't WANT him to go easy on me.  I did

 some things and he asked if I wanted ATP standards

 or normal.  I chose ATP.  I WANT to be tested.

 As Phil mentioned, you get rusty and more fearful if

 you don't fly often, so FLY OFTEN.  This activity

 isn't for the occasional pilot...one who goes up for

 some touch and goes every 4 months.  Stick with it...

 get some time every month, even if it's only an hour.

 Can you do that?  I'm thinking that if you truly have

 the passion, you'll make it happen.  Flying isn't

 for everyone...but anyone with the passion can make

 it work for them.

 

 The one thing that does concern me greatly is the

 number of ZERO time pilots that are building RV-10's.

 My CFII yesterday mentioned, when we discussed the

 3 fatal RV-10 accidents, that we're very similar to

 the Cirrus trends, but we're very similar planes.

 He said the average Cirrus owner has something like

 74 hours (unverified), and we both lamented at how

 shockingly inadequate (sorry, really, I am) that can

 be, for flying a plane with such performance.  Sure, it

 flies slow if throttle back, but it's slippery, and

 it's light, and it demands respect.  So, for those

 out there that are very low or zero time pilots, please,

 get in that plane with a CFI and put LOTS of time on

 it if you insist on flying an RV-10 right away. LOTS

 of time.  You will never progress faster by any other

 means than if you put on a LOT of time over a short

 time span.  If you can fly 200 hours in a year, you're

 going to retain a lot more skill for many years, than

 the guy who flies 20-45 hours a year.  So look at it

 as an investment, and just fork over for the avgas

 and keep that plane in the air for a MINIMUM of 100

 hours in the first year.  The year I got my instrument

 ticket I put in 100+ hours, and it was my biggest

 year of skill growth ever...and it was the most

 retained, at that.  My first year in my RV-10 I put

 on 200 hours.  It's amazing how much comfort that brings

 you.

 

 So, if you truly have the passion, these accidents, and

 NTSB reports won't stun you and set you back.  They'll

 make you think, and make you strive for more. And

 you'll still gladly jump in the plane and go for a flight,

 because you'll know that it CAN happen to you, but only

 if you don't get out there and develop good skills,

 and retain them.  Anyone can fly a plane and bring it

 back to earth with everyone alive.  You just have to

 NOT do the things that people do wrong....so learn from

 the others who paid the price for your lesson...and

 develop respect for flying and be safe.

 

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

 (sorry, I'll try for more brevity on the next few posts

 to make up for this one.) 



 

 

 Pascal wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   --> RV10-List message posted by: "Pascal" <rv10builder(at)verizon.net (rv10builder(at)verizon.net)>

 

 Lew;

 We all miss our fellow builders who have perished in the last year. I would encourage you to read some of Tim's great articles on what he has done for his family in the plane these last couple of years http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/index.html  and remember people die every day; some doing what they enjoy, some while waiting for that day they would do something they wanted to do and some completely unexpectedly taking out the garbage they hated doing.. I too will go one day, I know where I'm going and I'm pretty excited about it, but in the meantime I want to do what I always wanted (build a plane) and if I die on my maiden flight, I'll be really bummed but I did it doing something I was excited about.. the few we have lost this last year perished doing what they loved..

   I encourage you to think of all those trips to meet many of us at fly-in's, in Oregon for Van's open house, etc.. there is so much to get excited about with flying..

 Pascal

 

 --------------------------------------------------

 From: "Lew Gallagher" <lewgall(at)charter.net (lewgall(at)charter.net)>

 Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 1:25 PM

 To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)>

 Subject: Re: 210HM

 

  	  Quote: 	
		   --> RV10-List message posted by: "Lew Gallagher" <lewgall(at)charter.net (lewgall(at)charter.net)>

 

 Thanks Tim, I never would have found it ... now I'm not sure I'm glad I did.  I still love building, but my curiosity about flying is waning. Hopefully I'm just temporarily discouraged.  What a loss.

 

 Here's Tim's unbroken link:

 

 [url=http://www.ntsb.gov:80/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 080422X00528&key=1]http://www.ntsb.gov:80/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 080422X00528&key=1[/url]

 

 Here's the address of the flight (you may have to copy and paste it):

 

 [url=http://flightaware.com/live/flight_track_bigmap.rvt?ident=N210HM;airports=M54+KEUF;key d4df5c6845e46bcf7468a922905557f369ebd5;keytime=1208981350;height=340;width=400;departuretime=1207580400;arrivaltime=1207585140]http://flightaware.com/live/flight_track_bigmap.rvt?ident=N210HM;airports=M54+KEUF;key d4df5c6845e46bcf7468a922905557f369ebd5;keytime=1208981350;height=340;width=400;departuretime=1207580400;arrivaltime=1207585140[/url] 

   

 Later, -Lew

 

 --------

 non-pilot

 crazy about building

 NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549

 doors almost finished, pants on, WHEW!

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178741#178741

 

 

 	
	
 

 

 

 

 



[b]

Lew Gallagher

Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 402
Location: Greenville , SC

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: 210HM

Hey Guys,



Thanks for responding to my thinly disguised plea for reassurance ... still bummed for now.



"Let me sleep on it" - Meatloaf



Later, - Lew

do not archive

_________________
non-pilot
crazy about building
NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549
Fly off completed !

rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:38 pm Post subject: 210HM

Tim;

I should have said ">> would encourage you to read some of Tim's great 

articles on what he has

done for his family and builders with feedback in the plane these last 

couple of years"

As always you have not let us down with your insight!

Thanks!

Pascal

--------------------------------------------------

From: "Tim Olson" <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>

Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 7:10 PM

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Re: 210HM

 	  Quote: 	

 Lew, Pascal, and all,

 Nothing I have to say is new at all, but I thought I'd share

 my feelings.  To me, all things involve risk, so I don't really

 view the fact that it has risk as making the activity something

 I'm averse to.  I've never been skydiving (REAL skydiving), but

 it drives me crazy to hear about people like my own brother

 in law, who would LOVE to go skydiving, but simply won't because

 his insurance wouldn't pay if he died.  You're put on the earth

 to LIVE life, and to me, it's all about what you're passionate

 about...and fulfilling your dreams.  There is a LOT you can

 do, in ANY activity, to increase your odds, but in almost

 ALL activities there is nothing you can do to guarantee your

 safety.  So, you simply live life to it's fullest, enjoying

 the things you're passionate about....and you do what you can

 to minimize your risks.

 A couple days ago, I wanted to fill in the AOPA survey and

 the question "What do you think is the most significant

 deterrent to learning how to fly, besides cost?"  I tell you,

 I was totally stumped.  So I asked a co-worker, who's expressed

 interest, but never taken the plunge.  She said "Probably

 fear, that they won't be able to control the plane, and that

 they'll hurt or kill themselves or someone else."  I was

 stunned at first.  I couldn't believe it.   To me, I always

 had the passion, the dream, and the desire.  The thought that

 I would not be able to do it safely never entered my mind.

 To me, if other people can fly planes, then because I WANT

 to fly planes so bad, I can fly planes.  After pondering

 it for a while, I agreed with her and I filled in the survey.

 I just didn't realize that some people let their fears

 crush their passion like that, or perhaps their passion

 wasn't as overwhelming to quench their fears.

 So assuming that a person indeed has the passion in them

 to partake in flying, my feeling is that those that

 TRULY have that passion for excellence will also strive

 for developing the knowledge and skill required to do

 the flying they want to do.  For me, one thing led to

 another and I yearned for more.  I love the complexity,

 I love the challenge, I love flying in and out of IMC.

 I love the clear sky days, and I love the low drizzly

 days.  But I also want to do it right, and be safe.  I

 have a fear in me, developed from reading all of the

 negative examples that we have...."Aftermath"...."I learned

 about flying from that", and so on...  I put myself in

 the cockpit when I read those stories, and I wonder...

 what would be the way to prevent that situation?  There

 are many good people and good pilots who did some pretty

 not-so-hot things that led to their demise.  I'm no better

 than them, but because they are my teacher, in some

 respect, I hope to use them as a source of guidance,

 and let them help me develop self-control.  I don't want

 to have the same fate, so when I fly, I constantly

 analyze the safety of what I'm doing when I have those

 critical decisions, and I remind myself what the cost

 is if I fail.  It's very humbling.  But, the risk

 does not kill my desire...because I KNOW....there is

 no reason for me to meet the same fate....it's ALL IN

 MY HANDS.

 That leads me to re-tell a story.  I had many good

 opportunities for instilling respect and fear into

 myself in actual IMC during my Instrument rating

 training.  I genuinely was NOT ready, 20 hours into

 my training, to keep myself alive in IMC...and I knew

 that.  But, I kept flying with my pals....all CFI's,

 in actual IMC and under the hood, to build confidence.

 Finally the day came...well after obtaining that ticket,

 for me to go fly in IMC on a perfect day.  No reason,

 just was the perfect 700' overcast day to go test

 myself with, ... HA! ... that same risk-averse brother

 in law of mine.  I climbed out into the clouds, and

 as soon as I was in IMC, I thought to myself "Man,

 did YOU do it now....Now you're stuck...and you can't

 get out of this with any help from anyone else...it's

 only YOU who can bring you both down alive and safe."

 I was genuinely fearful....but reminded myself that

 I knew what to do...it was only executing those things

 that I needed to do properly.  The airplane was up to

 it, if only I was too.  Obviously, it went just fine,

 or I'd not be here today.  But, still to this day,

 when I'm entering the clouds, I have similar feelings,

 because I respect what I'm doing as "highly challenging"

 and important to do well.

 In reading the NTSB report, one cannot help to question

 the pilot(s).  It's our nature.  "Why didn't they just

 fly straight and level and get their bearings?"  "Why

 didn't they just hit the ONE button on their Autopilot

 (assuming a TruTrak) that gives them instant heading

 and altitude hold?"  "Why didn't they ask for vectors

 and just fly headings and vectors until they got to

 some better conditions?"  They're gone, so it's not

 dishonoring them to ask....they're now our teachers.

 What is obvious is that mistakes were made.  Now, for

 those who choose to fly in conditions like they were,

 it's your job to find out what mistakes, and NOT make

 them yourself.  Remember them, and honor them by

 bringing your craft and crew home safe, every time.

 What can you do to help?  Well, I for one, just did

 an early BFR and IPC yesterday.  Nothing wrong with

 doing a AFR instead of a BFR right? (No, there is

 no such thing as an Annual Flight Review...but hey,

 it never hurts.)  I want to make sure that not only

 am I legal on paper, but that someone else critiques

 me too.  I don't WANT him to go easy on me.  I did

 some things and he asked if I wanted ATP standards

 or normal.  I chose ATP.  I WANT to be tested.

 As Phil mentioned, you get rusty and more fearful if

 you don't fly often, so FLY OFTEN.  This activity

 isn't for the occasional pilot...one who goes up for

 some touch and goes every 4 months.  Stick with it...

 get some time every month, even if it's only an hour.

 Can you do that?  I'm thinking that if you truly have

 the passion, you'll make it happen.  Flying isn't

 for everyone...but anyone with the passion can make

 it work for them.

 The one thing that does concern me greatly is the

 number of ZERO time pilots that are building RV-10's.

 My CFII yesterday mentioned, when we discussed the

 3 fatal RV-10 accidents, that we're very similar to

 the Cirrus trends, but we're very similar planes.

 He said the average Cirrus owner has something like

 74 hours (unverified), and we both lamented at how

 shockingly inadequate (sorry, really, I am) that can

 be, for flying a plane with such performance.  Sure, it

 flies slow if throttle back, but it's slippery, and

 it's light, and it demands respect.  So, for those

 out there that are very low or zero time pilots, please,

 get in that plane with a CFI and put LOTS of time on

 it if you insist on flying an RV-10 right away. LOTS

 of time.  You will never progress faster by any other

 means than if you put on a LOT of time over a short

 time span.  If you can fly 200 hours in a year, you're

 going to retain a lot more skill for many years, than

 the guy who flies 20-45 hours a year.  So look at it

 as an investment, and just fork over for the avgas

 and keep that plane in the air for a MINIMUM of 100

 hours in the first year.  The year I got my instrument

 ticket I put in 100+ hours, and it was my biggest

 year of skill growth ever...and it was the most

 retained, at that.  My first year in my RV-10 I put

 on 200 hours.  It's amazing how much comfort that brings

 you.

 So, if you truly have the passion, these accidents, and

 NTSB reports won't stun you and set you back.  They'll

 make you think, and make you strive for more. And

 you'll still gladly jump in the plane and go for a flight,

 because you'll know that it CAN happen to you, but only

 if you don't get out there and develop good skills,

 and retain them.  Anyone can fly a plane and bring it

 back to earth with everyone alive.  You just have to

 NOT do the things that people do wrong....so learn from

 the others who paid the price for your lesson...and

 develop respect for flying and be safe.

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

 (sorry, I'll try for more brevity on the next few posts

 to make up for this one.) 

 Pascal wrote:

> 

>

> Lew;

> We all miss our fellow builders who have perished in the last year. I 

> would encourage you to read some of Tim's great articles on what he has 

> done for his family in the plane these last couple of years 

> http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/index.html  and remember people die every 

> day; some doing what they enjoy, some while waiting for that day they 

> would do something they wanted to do and some completely unexpectedly 

> taking out the garbage they hated doing.. I too will go one day, I know 

> where I'm going and I'm pretty excited about it, but in the meantime I 

> want to do what I always wanted (build a plane) and if I die on my maiden 

> flight, I'll be really bummed but I did it doing something I was excited 

> about.. the few we have lost this last year perished doing what they 

> loved..

> I encourage you to think of all those trips to meet many of us at 

> fly-in's, in Oregon for Van's open house, etc.. there is so much to get 

> excited about with flying..

> Pascal

>

> --------------------------------------------------

> From: "Lew Gallagher" <lewgall(at)charter.net>

> Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 1:25 PM

> To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

> Subject: Re: 210HM

>

>> 

>>

>> Thanks Tim, I never would have found it ... now I'm not sure I'm glad I 

>> did.  I still love building, but my curiosity about flying is waning. 

>> Hopefully I'm just temporarily discouraged.  What a loss.

>>

>> Here's Tim's unbroken link:

>>

>> http://www.ntsb.gov:80/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 080422X00528&key=1

>>

>> Here's the address of the flight (you may have to copy and paste it):

>>

>> http://flightaware.com/live/flight_track_bigmap.rvt?ident=N210HM;airports=M54+KEUF;key d4df5c6845e46bcf7468a922905557f369ebd5;keytime=1208981350;height=340;width=400;departuretime=1207580400;arrivaltime=1207585140

>>

>> Later, -Lew

>>

>> --------

>> non-pilot

>> crazy about building

>> NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549

>> doors almost finished, pants on, WHEW!

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Read this topic online here:

>>

>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178741#178741

>>

>>

roadmaps

Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Posts: 49

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:59 am Post subject: 210HM

Tim,



Thank you so much for taking the time to share the kind of wisdom all of us

RVers need to hear (over and over again). I flew a Cessna 172 for years and

did my instrument training in the 172. But moving up to a high performance

plane - C182 was a whole new experience. IFR is demanding enough at 172

speeds but things happen really fast in a high performance plane - you have

to be ready for this. Your advice to fly LOTS of hours before ending up in

actual in a high performance RV10 can't be emphasized enough.



John Testement

jwt(at)roadmapscoaching.com

40321 N311RV

Richmond, VA

Painting




Lew, Pascal, and all,



Nothing I have to say is new at all, but I thought I'd share my feelings.

To me, all things involve risk, so I don't really view the fact that it has

risk as making the activity something I'm averse to.  I've never been

skydiving (REAL skydiving), but it drives me crazy to hear about people like

my own brother in law, who would LOVE to go skydiving, but simply won't

because his insurance wouldn't pay if he died.  You're put on the earth to

LIVE life, and to me, it's all about what you're passionate about...and

fulfilling your dreams.  There is a LOT you can do, in ANY activity, to

increase your odds, but in almost ALL activities there is nothing you can do

to guarantee your safety.  So, you simply live life to it's fullest,

enjoying the things you're passionate about....and you do what you can to

minimize your risks.



A couple days ago, I wanted to fill in the AOPA survey and the question

"What do you think is the most significant deterrent to learning how to fly,

besides cost?"  I tell you, I was totally stumped.  So I asked a co-worker,

who's expressed interest, but never taken the plunge.  She said "Probably

fear, that they won't be able to control the plane, and that they'll hurt or

kill themselves or someone else."  I was

stunned at first.  I couldn't believe it.   To me, I always

had the passion, the dream, and the desire.  The thought that I would not be

able to do it safely never entered my mind.

To me, if other people can fly planes, then because I WANT to fly planes so

bad, I can fly planes.  After pondering it for a while, I agreed with her

and I filled in the survey.

I just didn't realize that some people let their fears crush their passion

like that, or perhaps their passion wasn't as overwhelming to quench their

fears.



So assuming that a person indeed has the passion in them to partake in

flying, my feeling is that those that TRULY have that passion for excellence

will also strive for developing the knowledge and skill required to do the

flying they want to do.  For me, one thing led to another and I yearned for

more.  I love the complexity, I love the challenge, I love flying in and out

of IMC.

I love the clear sky days, and I love the low drizzly days.  But I also want

to do it right, and be safe.  I have a fear in me, developed from reading

all of the negative examples that we have...."Aftermath"...."I learned about

flying from that", and so on...  I put myself in the cockpit when I read

those stories, and I wonder...

what would be the way to prevent that situation?  There are many good people

and good pilots who did some pretty not-so-hot things that led to their

demise.  I'm no better than them, but because they are my teacher, in some

respect, I hope to use them as a source of guidance, and let them help me

develop self-control.  I don't want to have the same fate, so when I fly, I

constantly analyze the safety of what I'm doing when I have those critical

decisions, and I remind myself what the cost is if I fail.  It's very

humbling.  But, the risk does not kill my desire...because I KNOW....there

is no reason for me to meet the same fate....it's ALL IN MY HANDS.



That leads me to re-tell a story.  I had many good opportunities for

instilling respect and fear into myself in actual IMC during my Instrument

rating training.  I genuinely was NOT ready, 20 hours into my training, to

keep myself alive in IMC...and I knew that.  But, I kept flying with my

pals....all CFI's, in actual IMC and under the hood, to build confidence.

Finally the day came...well after obtaining that ticket, for me to go fly in

IMC on a perfect day.  No reason, just was the perfect 700' overcast day to

go test myself with, ... HA! ... that same risk-averse brother in law of

mine.  I climbed out into the clouds, and as soon as I was in IMC, I thought

to myself "Man, did YOU do it now....Now you're stuck...and you can't get

out of this with any help from anyone else...it's only YOU who can bring you

both down alive and safe."

I was genuinely fearful....but reminded myself that I knew what to do...it

was only executing those things that I needed to do properly.  The airplane

was up to it, if only I was too.  Obviously, it went just fine, or I'd not

be here today.  But, still to this day, when I'm entering the clouds, I have

similar feelings, because I respect what I'm doing as "highly challenging"

and important to do well.



In reading the NTSB report, one cannot help to question the pilot(s).  It's

our nature.  "Why didn't they just fly straight and level and get their

bearings?"  "Why didn't they just hit the ONE button on their Autopilot

(assuming a TruTrak) that gives them instant heading and altitude hold?"

"Why didn't they ask for vectors and just fly headings and vectors until

they got to some better conditions?"  They're gone, so it's not dishonoring

them to ask....they're now our teachers.

What is obvious is that mistakes were made.  Now, for those who choose to

fly in conditions like they were, it's your job to find out what mistakes,

and NOT make them yourself.  Remember them, and honor them by bringing your

craft and crew home safe, every time.



What can you do to help?  Well, I for one, just did an early BFR and IPC

yesterday.  Nothing wrong with doing a AFR instead of a BFR right? (No,

there is no such thing as an Annual Flight Review...but hey, it never

hurts.)  I want to make sure that not only am I legal on paper, but that

someone else critiques me too.  I don't WANT him to go easy on me.  I did

some things and he asked if I wanted ATP standards or normal.  I chose ATP.

I WANT to be tested.

As Phil mentioned, you get rusty and more fearful if you don't fly often, so

FLY OFTEN.  This activity isn't for the occasional pilot...one who goes up

for some touch and goes every 4 months.  Stick with it...

get some time every month, even if it's only an hour.

Can you do that?  I'm thinking that if you truly have the passion, you'll

make it happen.  Flying isn't for everyone...but anyone with the passion can

make it work for them.



The one thing that does concern me greatly is the number of ZERO time pilots

that are building RV-10's.

My CFII yesterday mentioned, when we discussed the

3 fatal RV-10 accidents, that we're very similar to the Cirrus trends, but

we're very similar planes.

He said the average Cirrus owner has something like

74 hours (unverified), and we both lamented at how shockingly inadequate

(sorry, really, I am) that can be, for flying a plane with such performance.

Sure, it flies slow if throttle back, but it's slippery, and it's light, and

it demands respect.  So, for those out there that are very low or zero time

pilots, please, get in that plane with a CFI and put LOTS of time on it if

you insist on flying an RV-10 right away. LOTS of time.  You will never

progress faster by any other means than if you put on a LOT of time over a

short time span.  If you can fly 200 hours in a year, you're going to retain

a lot more skill for many years, than the guy who flies 20-45 hours a year.

So look at it as an investment, and just fork over for the avgas and keep

that plane in the air for a MINIMUM of 100 hours in the first year.  The

year I got my instrument ticket I put in 100+ hours, and it was my biggest

year of skill growth ever...and it was the most retained, at that.  My first

year in my RV-10 I put on 200 hours.  It's amazing how much comfort that

brings you.



So, if you truly have the passion, these accidents, and NTSB reports won't

stun you and set you back.  They'll make you think, and make you strive for

more. And you'll still gladly jump in the plane and go for a flight, because

you'll know that it CAN happen to you, but only if you don't get out there

and develop good skills, and retain them.  Anyone can fly a plane and bring

it back to earth with everyone alive.  You just have to NOT do the things

that people do wrong....so learn from the others who paid the price for your

lesson...and develop respect for flying and be safe.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

(sorry, I'll try for more brevity on the next few posts to make up for this

one.) 

Checked by AVG. 

7:24 AM

GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:32 am Post subject: 210HM

In a message dated 4/23/2008 9:16:59 PM Central Daylight Time,  Tim(at)MyRV10.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Well, I    for one, just did

an early BFR and IPC yesterday.  Nothing wrong    with

doing a AFR instead of a BFR right? 	


 

 The new climate in the FAA has gotten away from the term BFR they are now  promoting a more professional approach to training as is done with ATP's...the  new Wings program is trying to promote the idea that our training should be  progressive learning and proficiency.  Thus they are trying to instill that  we should all be training, learning new or re-inforcing the basics.  Not  waiting for a check ride very 2 years. A PPL is just the begining  ticket to a ride of learning.  

  

 I don't know if you newer/non-pilot read Bob Miller electronic newsletter  or visit AOPA Safety Foundation courses...both of these provide some great  information.  There are a number of other publications for pilots of all  skill levels...whether it's IFR magazines or general aviation reading.   Additionally there are a number of schools one can attend...my friend recently  attended an aerobatics school so he's now more comfortable with stalls in all  configurations and attitudes...something he feared before this training, now his  confidence level has risen.  

  

 The FAA's folks today believe as many instructors have said  forever, get good instruction frequently and not rely on a minimal  check ride every 24 months.  Continue your learning  with new skills either through progressive training in the new Wings  program or obtaining a new rating or learning a new skill.

  

 A little anxiety is probably healthy.  If you've been  flying for a while, you've probably done some dum pilot tricks or been involved  with situations...with good training and a bit of luck you've learned and grown  to be a better pilot.  Recently a student pilot lost and engine and landed  the plane safely..the news asked if he was going to fly again...he  said as soon as he could...now he's received some good training..hats off to his  CFI and his good attitude. 

  

 In golf, reading Jack's book, he say's that each spring he would approach  his golf teacher, Jack Grout, hand him a club and ask him if he would  teach him how to play golf.  Not well or better but to teach him golf  basics.  As Tim said he's taking a progressive approach to his skill set  and that's pretty good advise to all pilots, whether an ATP or a person wanting  to learn...never stop learning.  If you've learned everything there is to  know about flying...QUIT...if not please venture on adding to the skills in your  flight bag.

  

 Patrick

  

  



Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

  [quote][b]

n212pj(at)GMAIL.COM
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:16 am Post subject: 210HM

Lew, you've gotten some  good advice in the last couple days.  Let me add a couple items and make a plea.  

 

  

 1.  If you want to build  the 10 because you love building and feel flying is not your thing, then do it.   Build an RV-10.  A great bunch of folks are right there with you.  You might  have someone who knows flying help you decide on the final panel design, but  other than that, it's pretty "simple" and fun.  You won't be earning very big  bucks at the end of the day, when it comes time to sell, but then you are doing  it for the love of building, right?  

  

 2.  If you want to fly,  then I'd suggest starting now.  I suggest going out to your favorite field and  getting that first lesson, and I'd rather see you do it with the attitude that  you're out to have fun.  It doesn't matter too much which type of airplane,  since the one's that you'll have available to you are all trainers.  That is,  they are designed to be as stable as possible, and not all that fast.  I hope  what you'll get from the lesson is that it is fun, it is doable, and that you'll  want the second lesson.  And the third and the forth and so on.  

  

 3.  Then, assuming you  love flying, I hope you'll spend more time, or at least as much time flying than  building.  I hope you take the advice of many on the list and get in that 100 or  200 hours and build those skills.  But, even if it's the 50 hours most casual  flyers can afford, in terms of time and coin, that's 50 more hours than you had  before.  Fifty more hours of experience leading up to the skills needed for the  RV-10.  

  

 4.  Finally, and this is  for all those who lack high performance training, don't even think you can  handle the RV-10 without high performance training and plenty of high  performance time.  The RV-10 is a great plane.  Good handling.  Good slow speed  characteristics.  Goes fast.  But, it can get folks in trouble because things  happen very quickly.  The difference between flying a 172 and an RV-10 is not  night and day.  It's all the same stuff, almost.  It just happens faster, so you  have to know what you need to do before you need to do it.  And that takes time  and practice.  Someone said there was a lot to learn going from a 172 to a 182.   Heck, there's a lot to learn going from a 182 to an RV-10!  But, you can go from  a 172 to an RV-10, just do it with a CFI for many, many hours until both you and  s/he feel you're ready.  One analogy that I got from someone about moving up to  the faster airplanes was what is often said by college athletes going into the  pros, it's all the same, just that everything happens faster and the offensive  and defensive schemes are more complex.  You can learn it and do it, you just  need to practice, practice, practice.  

  

 In some senses I'm trying  to make a very strong case for you to get in the air, and do it soon.  You have  what is good to have (besides the desire to fly), and that is a healthy bit of  anxiety about flying.  The faster you get in the air with a CFI (one that you  feel comfortable with, don't forget you can audition these folks) helping you  learn, the faster that anxiety will diminish and you'll find that this is a  reasonable activity, one with so many upsides that the risks are worth it,  especially if you manage them well.  BUT, don't wait too long.  Get going.  It  takes time, and there is a whole bunch of learning (and a whole bunch of fun) to  be had before you will be ready for the RV-10, especially ready in a manner that  you will find very enjoyable and exhilarating.  

  

 Finally, you don't have  to build an RV-10 to enjoy flying.  You don't have to go fast to enjoy flying.   You don't have to haul around 4 seats to enjoy flying.  The RV-10, in fact, may  not be the right first plane for you to build and fly.  That is something that  you need to think carefully about.  It is, after all, a large commitment of time  and coin.  However, if you have the passion and you're enjoying the heck out of  it, then do it!  Just go get that license and build your time....

  

 John Jessen

   40328 (on hold while  I'm enjoying flying my GlaStar, a very much slower plane than the RV-10, but a  joy to fly!)  

  [quote][b]

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