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larry(at)macsmachine.com
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 Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:13 pm Post subject: 601HD |
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Hi Andy,
The Corvair would be an excellent engine for the HD, but one might have
to put a little less pitch into the prop to keep
it from drawing the plane past its VNE. Good economics compared to
Rotax and 0-200.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
ashontz wrote:
| Quote: |
Just curious, is the Corvair engine a suitable engine for 601HD?[/b]
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
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ashontz
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:05 am Post subject: Re: 601HD |
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|
Thanks Larry. I'm kicking around the idea of starting over and building an HD. Originally I was interested in the HD, then the XL came out and that seemed like the no-brainer sexier plane to build. I should have more seriously considered the longer track record of the HD.
Considering that when I do have time to work on my plane I make good progress in that time. I think I spent about 2 and a half months making my flaps and ailerons. Considering the HD wing isn't tapered or anything, I think I could make all the ribs for it pretty quickly and maybe get back to the point I'm at now within a year, 6 - 8 months if I do some serious heads-down work.
One thing I think I'd miss on the HD would be flaps. Has anyone ever successfully installed split flaps on an HD?
I'm still kicking around the idea of switching. I'll probably do my Corvair conversion next and see if any more conclusive info is forthcoming on the XL. It's a shame, it really is a nice looking sleek airplane, but I want to be comfortable flying whatever I build.
| larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote: | Hi Andy,
The Corvair would be an excellent engine for the HD, but one might have
to put a little less pitch into the prop to keep
it from drawing the plane past its VNE. Good economics compared to
Rotax and 0-200.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
ashontz wrote:
| Quote: |
Just curious, is the Corvair engine a suitable engine for 601HD?[/b]
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
|
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larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:43 am Post subject: 601HD |
|
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Andy,
The HD has enormous lift and flaps would be without purpose on this long
wing. On the HDS, tapered and only 23 feet, I cannot begin to keep up
in climb with an HD.
Same engine and all, the HD flare could only be improved perhaps with
VGs under the stab and on the wings. I do like the security of the large
spar section etc, but still
believe the XL is very safe if built to Zenith drawings and materials
requirements. This problem will be resolved sooner than later and the
common denominator will most
likely be either construction that varies from the design or materials
that were less than called for.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
ashontz wrote:
| Quote: |
Thanks Larry. I'm kicking around the idea of starting over and building an HD. Originally I was interested in the HD, then the XL came out and that seemed like the no-brainer sexier plane to build. I should have more seriously considered the longer track record of the HD.
Considering that when I do have time to work on my plane I make good progress in that time. I think I spent about 2 and a half months making my flaps and ailerons. Considering the HD wing isn't tapered or anything, I think I could make all the ribs for it pretty quickly and maybe get back to the point I'm at now within a year, 6 - 8 months if I do some serious heads-down work.
One thing I think I'd miss on the HD would be flaps. Has anyone ever successfully installed split flaps on an HD?
I'm still kicking around the idea of switching. I'll probably do my Corvair conversion next and see if any more conclusive info is forthcoming on the XL. It's a shame, it really is a nice looking sleek airplane, but I want to be comfortable flying whatever I build.
>> --------
>> Andy Shontz
>> CH601XL - Corvair
>> www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
|
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ashontz
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:59 am Post subject: Re: 601HD |
|
|
Thanks again for the info and support Larry. This whole thing has me sick. For now it's probably best to spend some time on my engine and see what comes of it all. I'm prepared to start over, I'd prefer not to though. Either way I'll need an engine so I might as well fart with that for now. Been reading WW's manual, just great bathroom reading in and of itself. Reminds me of the old Experimenter magazines. I'm sure I'll have plenty of fun and sense of accomplishment working on the engine for now. I'm having a hard time enjoying working on the plane itself at the moment. More than anything, it's time, not money. I haven't spent that much getting to where I'm at so far. Sure scrapping $1,500 worth of completedly parts would suck, but it's mostly the "ugh, I might have to start over" factor.
| larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote: | Andy,
The HD has enormous lift and flaps would be without purpose on this long
wing. On the HDS, tapered and only 23 feet, I cannot begin to keep up
in climb with an HD.
Same engine and all, the HD flare could only be improved perhaps with
VGs under the stab and on the wings. I do like the security of the large
spar section etc, but still
believe the XL is very safe if built to Zenith drawings and materials
requirements. This problem will be resolved sooner than later and the
common denominator will most
likely be either construction that varies from the design or materials
that were less than called for.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
ashontz wrote:
| Quote: |
Thanks Larry. I'm kicking around the idea of starting over and building an HD. Originally I was interested in the HD, then the XL came out and that seemed like the no-brainer sexier plane to build. I should have more seriously considered the longer track record of the HD.
Considering that when I do have time to work on my plane I make good progress in that time. I think I spent about 2 and a half months making my flaps and ailerons. Considering the HD wing isn't tapered or anything, I think I could make all the ribs for it pretty quickly and maybe get back to the point I'm at now within a year, 6 - 8 months if I do some serious heads-down work.
One thing I think I'd miss on the HD would be flaps. Has anyone ever successfully installed split flaps on an HD?
I'm still kicking around the idea of switching. I'll probably do my Corvair conversion next and see if any more conclusive info is forthcoming on the XL. It's a shame, it really is a nice looking sleek airplane, but I want to be comfortable flying whatever I build.
>> --------
>> Andy Shontz
>> CH601XL - Corvair
>> www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
|
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frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:05 am Post subject: 601HD |
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|
Let me add some more conjecture to what is going on. I reviewed the fatal accidents on the link page provided http://www.cleanh2o.com/633z/nstb/ and looked over the causes. Four XL accidents and no other zodiac 600 or 601 fatal accidents involved inflight breakups. One of those, Canadian TX, was in IMC, so it could have a lot of causes not related to the worthiness of the structure, but three were apparent breakups with no apparent intervening causes, Oakdale, CA, Yuba City CA, and Polk City, FL. When I look at the earlier 601's and compare them to the XL, one thing jumps out at me, the main landing gear. The stress going into the main landing gear is transmitted much more closely to the wing root on the XL, and involves the equivalent of a negative load on the wing spar in most landing situations, as opposed to the earlier landing gear, which transmitted its forces as the equivalent of a positive load on the wing spar. I would like to see a dynamic analysis of a landing which flexes the wings downward. The only other XL fatal was LaBell MO, which was an apparent stall/spin.
As far as HDS safety, I would note htat there were three apparent stall/spins in the record, Farmington DE, Leominster MA, and Orange TX. Apparently there was also a plain 601 stall spin at Wooster OH. There were also two engine out fatalities, one HDS at Orange TX which may also have involved a stall/spin, and an XL at Basye VA, which ws caused by fuel exhaustion. Finally there was a midair at Pohatcong, NJ.
Going to the HDS will apparently change your risk from structural to stall/spin, with no apparent gain in safety.
| Quote: | Subject: Re: 601HD
From: ashontz(at)nbme.org
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:59:04 -0700
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" <ashontz(at)nbme.org>
Thanks again for the info and support Larry. This whole thing has me sick. For now it's probably best to spend some time on my engine and see what comes of it all. I'm prepared to start over, I'd prefer not to though. Either way I'll need an engine so I might as well fart with that for now. Been reading WW's manual, just great bathroom reading in and of itself. Reminds me of the old Experimenter magazines. I'm sure I'll have plenty of fun and sense of accomplishment working on the engine for now. I'm having a hard time enjoying working on the plane itself at the moment. More than anything, it's time, not money. I haven't spent that much getting to where I'm at so far. Sure scrapping $1,500 worth of completedly parts would suck, but it's mostly the "ugh, I might have to start over" factor.
larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote:
> Andy,
> The HD has enormous lift and flaps would be without purpose on this long
> wing. On the HDS, tapered and only 23 feet, I cannot begin to keep up
> in climb with an HD.
> Same engine and all, the HD flare could only be improved perhaps with
> VGs under the stab and on the wings. I do like the security of the large
> spar section etc, but still
> believe the XL is very safe if built to Zenith drawings and materials
> requirements. This problem will be resolved sooner than later and the
> common denominator will most
> likely be either construction that varies from the design or materials
> that were less than called for.
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
> do not archive
>
> ashontz wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Thanks Larry. I'm kicking around the idea of starting over and building an HD. Originally I was interested in the HD, then the XL came out and that seemed like the no-brainer sexier plane to build. I should have more seriously considered the longer track record of the HD.
> >
> > Considering that when I do have time to work on my plane I make good progress in that time. I think I spent about 2 and a half months making my flaps and ailerons. Considering the HD wing isn't tapered or anything, I think I could make all the ribs for it pretty quickly and maybe get back to the point I'm at now within a year, 6 - 8 months if I do some serious heads-down work.
> >
> > One thing I think I'd miss on the HD would be flaps. Has anyone ever successfully installed split flaps on an HD?
> >
> > I'm still kicking around the idea of switching. I'll probably do my Corvair conversion next and see if any more conclusive info is forthcoming on the XL. It's a shame, it really is a nice looking sleek airplane, but I want to be comfortable flying whatever I build.
> >
> > >> --------
> > >> Andy Shontz
> > >> CH601XL - Corvair
> > >> www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> >
> >
> > --------
> > Andy Shontz
> > CH601XL - Corvair
> > www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178919#178919
>=======
|
Back to work after baby– how do you know when you’re ready? [quote][b]
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ashontz
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:33 am Post subject: Re: 601HD |
|
|
I was thinking HD, not HDS. But I'd probably build both sets of wings. Even so, I'd prefer to have both wings still on the plane if I were in a stall spin.
[quote="frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C"]Let me add some more conjecture to what is going on. I reviewed the fatal accidents on the link page provided http://www.cleanh2o.com/633z/nstb/ and looked over the causes. Four XL accidents and no other zodiac 600 or 601 fatal accidents involved inflight breakups. One of those, Canadian TX, was in IMC, so it could have a lot of causes not related to the worthiness of the structure, but three were apparent breakups with no apparent intervening causes, Oakdale, CA, Yuba City CA, and Polk City, FL. When I look at the earlier 601's and compare them to the XL, one thing jumps out at me, the main landing gear. The stress going into the main landing gear is transmitted much more closely to the wing root on the XL, and involves the equivalent of a negative load on the wing spar in most landing situations, as opposed to the earlier landing gear, which transmitted its forces as the equivalent of a positive load on the wing spar. I would like to see a dynamic analysis of a landing which flexes the wings downward. The only other XL fatal was LaBell MO, which was an apparent stall/spin.
As far as HDS safety, I would note htat there were three apparent stall/spins in the record, Farmington DE, Leominster MA, and Orange TX. Apparently there was also a plain 601 stall spin at Wooster OH. There were also two engine out fatalities, one HDS at Orange TX which may also have involved a stall/spin, and an XL at Basye VA, which ws caused by fuel exhaustion. Finally there was a midair at Pohatcong, NJ.
Going to the HDS will apparently change your risk from structural to stall/spin, with no apparent gain in safety.
| Quote: | Subject: Re: 601HD
From: ashontz(at)nbme.org
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:59:04 -0700
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" <ashontz>
Thanks again for the info and support Larry. This whole thing has me sick. For now it's probably best to spend some time on my engine and see what comes of it all. I'm prepared to start over, I'd prefer not to though. Either way I'll need an engine so I might as well fart with that for now. Been reading WW's manual, just great bathroom reading in and of itself. Reminds me of the old Experimenter magazines. I'm sure I'll have plenty of fun and sense of accomplishment working on the engine for now. I'm having a hard time enjoying working on the plane itself at the moment. More than anything, it's time, not money. I haven't spent that much getting to where I'm at so far. Sure scrapping $1,500 worth of completedly parts would suck, but it's mostly the "ugh, I might have to start over" factor.
larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote:
> Andy,
> The HD has enormous lift and flaps would be without purpose on this long
> wing. On the HDS, tapered and only 23 feet, I cannot begin to keep up
> in climb with an HD.
> Same engine and all, the HD flare could only be improved perhaps with
> VGs under the stab and on the wings. I do like the security of the large
> spar section etc, but still
> believe the XL is very safe if built to Zenith drawings and materials
> requirements. This problem will be resolved sooner than later and the
> common denominator will most
> likely be either construction that varies from the design or materials
> that were less than called for.
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
> do not archive
>
> ashontz wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Thanks Larry. I'm kicking around the idea of starting over and building an HD. Originally I was interested in the HD, then the XL came out and that seemed like the no-brainer sexier plane to build. I should have more seriously considered the longer track record of the HD.
> >
> > Considering that when I do have time to work on my plane I make good progress in that time. I think I spent about 2 and a half months making my flaps and ailerons. Considering the HD wing isn't tapered or anything, I think I could make all the ribs for it pretty quickly and maybe get back to the point I'm at now within a year, 6 - 8 months if I do some serious heads-down work.
> >
> > One thing I think I'd miss on the HD would be flaps. Has anyone ever successfully installed split flaps on an HD?
> >
> > I'm still kicking around the idea of switching. I'll probably do my Corvair conversion next and see if any more conclusive info is forthcoming on the XL. It's a shame, it really is a nice looking sleek airplane, but I want to be comfortable flying whatever I build.
> >
> > >> --------
> > >> Andy Shontz
> > >> CH601XL - Corvair
> > >> www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> >
> >
> > --------
> > Andy Shontz
> > CH601XL - Corvair
> > www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--------
Andy Shontz
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178919#178919
>=======
|
Back to work after baby? how do you know when you?re ready?
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larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:06 am Post subject: 601HD |
|
|
Frank,
The risk in the HDS is only a pilots decision to fly the aircraft within
its envelope. NO risk there if you're competent and have your head
screwed on right.
It's much harder to get into that stall spin if you practice to stay
ahead of the plane. It's a very stable aircraft and you definitely have
to do something stupid
to get the stall spin. Example, heavily loaded fast tight pattern on
landing, etc.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
Frank Roskind wrote:
| Quote: | Let me add some more conjecture to what is going on. I reviewed the
fatal accidents on the link page provided
http://www.cleanh2o.com/633z/nstb/ and looked over the causes. Four
XL accidents and no other zodiac 600 or 601 fatal accidents involved
inflight breakups. One of those, Canadian TX, was in IMC, so it could
have a lot of causes not related to the worthiness of the structure,
but three were apparent breakups with no apparent intervening causes,
Oakdale, CA, Yuba City CA, and Polk City, FL. When I look at the
earlier 601's and compare them to the XL, one thing jumps out at me,
the main landing gear. The stress going into the main landing gear is
transmitted much more closely to the wing root on the XL, and involves
the equivalent of a negative load on the wing spar in most landing
situations, as opposed to the earlier landing gear, which transmitted
its forces as the equivalent of a positive load on the wing spar. I
would like to see a dynamic analysis of a landing which flexes the
wings downward. The only other XL fatal was LaBell MO, which was an
apparent stall/spin.
As far as HDS safety, I would note htat there were three apparent
stall/spins in the record, Farmington DE, Leominster MA, and Orange
TX. Apparently there was also a plain 601 stall spin at Wooster OH.
There were also two engine out fatalities, one HDS at Orange TX which
may also have involved a stall/spin, and an XL at Basye VA, which ws
caused by fuel exhaustion. Finally there was a midair at Pohatcong, NJ.
Going to the HDS will apparently change your risk from structural to
stall/spin, with no apparent gain in safety.
|
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frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:30 am Post subject: 601HD |
|
|
But I would bet that every pilot who crashed in a stall/spin thought he was proficient enough.
| Quote: | Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:03:41 -0500
From: larry(at)macsmachine.com
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: 601HD
--> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry(at)macsmachine.com>
Frank,
The risk in the HDS is only a pilots decision to fly the aircraft within
its envelope. NO risk there if you're competent and have your head
screwed on right.
It's much harder to get into that stall spin if you practice to stay
ahead of the plane. It's a very stable aircraft and you definitely have
to do something stupid
to get the stall spin. Example, heavily loaded fast tight pattern on
landing, etc.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
Frank Roskind wrote:
> Let me add some more conjecture to what is going on. I reviewed the
> fatal accidents on the link page provided
> http://www.cleanh2o.com/633z/nstb/ and looked over the causes. Four
> XL accidents and no other zodiac 600 or 601 fatal accidents involved
> inflight breakups. One of those, Canadian TX, was in IMC, so it could
> have a lot of causes not related to the worthiness of the structure,
> but three were apparent breakups with no apparent intervening causes,
> Oakdale, CA, Yuba City CA, and Polk City, FL. When I look at the
> earlier 601's and compare them to the XL, one thing jumps out at me,
> the main landing gear. The stress going into the main landing gear is
> transmitted much more closely to the wing root on the XL, and involves
> the equivalent of a negative load on the wing spar in most landing
> situations, as opposed to the earlier landing gear, which transmitted
> its forces as the equivalent of a positive load on the wing spar. I
> would like to see a dynamic analysis of a landing which flexes the
> wings downward. The only other XL fatal was LaBell MO, which was an
> apparent stall/spin.
>
> As far as HDS safety, I would note htat there were three apparent
> stall/spins in the record, Farmington DE, Leominster MA, and Orange
> TX. Apparently there was also a plain 601 stall spin at Wooster OH.
> There were also two engine out fatalities, one HDS at Orange TX which
> may also have involved a stall/spin, and an XL at Basye VA, which ws
> caused by fuel exhaustion. Finally there was a midair at Pohatcong, NJ.
>
> Going to the HDS will apparently change your risk from structural to
> stall/spin, with no apparent gain in safety.
=====================
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larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:12 pm Post subject: 601HD |
|
|
Frank,
Over confidence will get you killed more often than not.
do not archive.
Frank Roskind wrote:
| Quote: | But I would bet that every pilot who crashed in a stall/spin thought
he was proficient enough.
> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:03:41 -0500
> From: larry(at)macsmachine.com
> To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Re: 601HD
>
>
<larry(at)macsmachine.com>
>
> Frank,
> The risk in the HDS is only a pilots decision to fly the aircraft
within
> its envelope. NO risk there if you're competent and have your head
> screwed on right.
> It's much harder to get into that stall spin if you practice to stay
> ahead of the plane. It's a very stable aircraft and you definitely have
> to do something stupid
> to get the stall spin. Example, heavily loaded fast tight pattern on
> landing, etc.
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
> do not archive
|
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