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frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:08 am Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

I didn't exclude flutter, but flutter usually does not sneak up on pilots in straight and level flight at low altitude.  Of course, were there some change in the control surfaces, such as a loosening of a counterweight, or a hinge, then the flutter characteristics would change abruptly, but in those cases flutter would be a symptom, not a cause.  If we had access to all of the pieces of the plane shortly after crash, then we would see shiny cracked surfaceswhere the events in the last few moments of flight led to failures and dull cracked surfaces next to shiny surfaces where a crack propagated during failure.  If a crack propagated, then it would be a great place to start looking.  Anything which could cause a major vibration would be a good place to start, including wing attach points, aileron and flap attach points, elevator hinges and attach points, engine mount, and propeller.  Another place to check would be the control system.  If the cables were to go slack all of a sudden, bad things would happen, too.  This is merely an attempt at logic.  My bet is the NTSB already has such a checklist, and much better than my shooting from the hip here.

[quote] Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 09:27:13 -0500

 From: jmaynard(at)conmicro.com

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com>

 On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:18:52AM -0400, Frank Roskind wrote:

 > Flutter is an interesting hypothesis, but flutter often occurs at higher

 > true airspeeds, which come from normal indicated airspeeds at high density

 > altitudes. For a discussion you might read

 > http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf

 > It doesn't rule out flutter, but certainly makes it not the first place to

 > look.

 Okkay...so what else would explain the results we see?

 -- 

 Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com

 http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net

 Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)

 AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (order=======

Make i'm yorce=TXT_TAGHM_MSN_Make_IM_Yours' target='_new'>Create a custom banner to support your cause.   	  Quote: 	
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frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:09 am Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

I agree, but flutter is the symptom, not the cause.

  	  Quote: 	
		    From: Aerolitellc(at)aol.com

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:54:34 -0400

Subject: Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

   In a message dated 4/24/2008 10:22:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.COM writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Flutter is an interesting hypothesis, but flutter often occurs at higher true airspeeds, which come from normal indicated airspeeds at high density altitudes.  For a discussion you might read http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf

It doesn't rule out flutter, but certainly makes it not the first place to look.

 If one of the ailerons started to depart you would more than likely have flutter. 

   Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

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swater6

Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 52
Location: Minnesota-KMIC/KANE

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:10 am Post subject: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

The common thing is that they are XL's.  Check the NTSB reports. Two were kits, one was AMD production and one was CZAW production.  Two wing folds and two in-flight break-ups.  4 fatal accidents with structural failure. Out of about 240 flying XL's(in the US)......Is that a lot or a little????



Scott



 	  Quote: 	
		  This brings up something I have been asking myself and now the group. What do all the aircraft have in common besides being XL's? I think we need to know all the common factors and see if the same thing is happening to each and every XL or what is different. 

1. Were all the suposed wing failures on kit or manufactured aircraft and not scratach built? 

2 Where did the materials for the craft come from? Who made the parts? 

etc. 

There are several questions that would lay the foundation for knowing or pinpointing the common thread if there is one. If not, then look at the design of the craft. 

It could be that all started as a kit from the same manufacture, of sub-contractor, who knowes. I think it is worth looking into. Find what is common to all 601XLs that have been suspect of folding or loosing wings. 

Not well sead but I hope the idea is understood. 

Bobefx 

601XL QB 3300A 

N642Z reserved 

do not archive

_________________
601 XL kit N596SW reserved
Tail, control surfaces and both wings complete. Now working on fuselage

www.scottwaters.com

planejim(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:35 am Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

Listers,

  

 You remember correctly. The 601XL over the  cooling towers with possible flutter in Ga was Bill of GA. He reported  extensively about it. At the time we thought is was mostly because of  turbulence. 

  

 Hey Bill, refresh our memories.

  

 Jim Hoak 601HD

 [quote]   ---

nyterminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:40 am Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

That was Bill of Georgia, Bill you want to chime in?

   	  Quote: 	
		  The first incident happened to someone in this list (it is in the archive) when he flew over some sort of cooling tower of a power plant if I remember correctly. The other happened to the  AMD Zodiac based in Lantana airport. Scott Thatcher reported the incident in this list (also in the archives) after he spoke to people related to the incident. Search the archive with "flutter" or "Lantana" and you'll find the discussion. I'll do and post the link to the old messages when I get some time.

 

 William Dominguez

 Zodiac 601XL Plans

 Miami Florida

 	


 

 

 --

Aerolitellc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

I don't think it stripped the heads off because you would still have some  of the rivets in there respective holes and as you can see they are all missing.  The only thing that would make sense to me judging from the two photo's  are

 1: The aileron connects on top of the hinge so if the rivet heads sheared  you would still have some of the rivets in their respective holes and there  are none.

 2: None of the holes seem to be elongated or distorted from a rivet pulling  thru as was the case with the cabin floor photos they seem to be all uniform and  of proper edge distance.

 3: If you look at photo 34 you can see half of the outboard hinge  is rolled and pulled away from the wing but the pin is still present and a  dent in the outboard flap.

  

 I would still like to know where the aileron ended up and what size rivets  were in the hinge.

  

 Jeff

  	  Quote: 	
		  After    viewing photos I wonder if the aileron fluttered causing the rivets

 	  Quote: 	
		      attaching it to rear spar to begin to unzip, stripping rivet heads one    at

 a time, causing wing tip rotation to over stress rear spar    attachment

 causing main spar to twist and bend . As previously stated    the aileron

 hinge looks too clean to have been firmly attached at    impact.

	

	


 

  



Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

  [quote][b]

moorecomp

Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 32

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:18 am Post subject: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

All,



Please go back in time and read my post from Mar. 10th of 2006 regarding Bill Phillips request for "More stupid conjecture" of the Modesto crash.  



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=4519



Sounds eerily familiar doesn't it?



I am still inclined to say a failure in the aileron control circuit, leading to flutter. In the current post-crash photos, look at the end rib of the left wing and see how the aileron control cables tore straight down through the wing? Also the upper spar caps are bent straight downward (not twisted) until failure. These 2 things indicate the wing was forced straight downward (there's that negative G thing again!) extremely hard. Probably not an aileron cable failure, because if one of the cables had failed, then it would be slack and not torn both locations equally. However, the large unbalanced aileron becoming disconnected would slam up and down violently enough to destroy the wing in a very short period of time, eventually ripping itself away. Especially at cruise speed, remember all the recent posts about "Maneuvering Speed" and "Full deflection of controls"? These uncontrolled deflections would be way more than normal full deflections.



    Someone looking for a common thread in these accidents should look at the fact that they all had electric trim systems installed - In the left aileron! Additional weight aft of the hinge line only makes an already unbalanced aileron condition even worse! 



Ok, so what would cause the aileron to become disconnected? Looking for a weak link in the system, I would first look at the small aileron control horn attached to the I/B .025" end rib of the aileron with 4 rivets. On the HD and HDS, the plans show that this part was a different configuration, much larger and fastened with more rivets. Heck, even the low and slow 701 has this plate made from .090" instead of .063" and it is fastened with 9 rivets in the .025" end rib and 4 more in a support L. Also, on the 601, due to the way the bell-crank moves the fwd. end of the push-rod in an arc, there is also some tension on these rivets, not just shear.



All for now. Be safe.



Craig Moore - A&P

701 builder wannabe - still

William Dominguez

Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:39 am Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

You're correct. Here is a link to his message back in Jan 2007.



http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=56316168?KEYS=flutter?LISTNAME=Zenith?HITNUMBER=148?SERIAL=09254221897?SHOWBUTTONS=YES



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida

http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom



nyterminat(at)aol.com wrote:[quote] That was Bill of Georgia, Bill you want to chime in?

   	  Quote: 	
		  The first incident happened to someone in this list (it is in the archive) when he flew over some sort of cooling tower of a power plant if I remember correctly. The other happened to the  AMD Zodiac based in Lantana airport. Scott Thatcher reported the incident in this list (also in the archives) after he spoke to people related to the  incident. Search the archive with "flutter" or "Lantana" and you'll find the discussion. I'll do and post the link to the old messages when I get some time.

 

 William Dominguez

 Zodiac 601XL Plans

 Miami Florida

 	


 

 

 --

_________________
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:38 am Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

At 07:34 AM 4/24/2008 -0700, Bob wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  This brings up something I have been asking myself and now the group. What do all the aircraft have in common besides being XL's? I think we need to know all the common factors and see if the same thing is happening to each and every XL or what is different.

 1. Were all the suposed wing failures on kit or manufactured aircraft and not scratach built?

 2 Where did the materials for the craft come from? Who made the parts?

 etc.

 There are several questions that would lay the foundation for knowing or pinpointing the common thread if there is one. If not, then look at the design of the craft.

 It could be that all started as a kit from the same manufacture, of sub-contractor, who knowes. I think it is worth looking into. Find what is common to all 601XLs that have been suspect of folding or loosing wings.

 Not well sead but I hope the idea is understood.

  

  

 Bobefx

 601XL QB 3300A

 N642Z reserved 	


 I very much agree with Bob on this. In fact, on March 15, during the discussion of the Barcelona accident, I used ZAC's website inquiry submittal form to send the following message to ZAC. To date, I have not received a response from ZAC.



 

  	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  The July/August 2007 Zenair newsletter contained a "Memo from Chris," which said, "I am in the process of starting yet another complete set of structural load tests ... In order to make absolutely certain noting is missed, an independent structural engineer will confirm the finding of these rigorous tests."



 In view of the recent accident near Barcelona, Spain, I would very much like to review whatever report or analysis was produced by the engineer who did these tests. Also, I wonder if you can tell me why negative G load stresses were not done in the 2007 series of tests.



 Also, there has been lots of speculation on the Matronics Zenith-List regarding the CH601XL accidents that have involved "elements of in-flight break up." I believe it would be a good public relations action by Zenith if you could make available a tabulation of information about these accidents showing: 1) Whether the aircrafts were kit-built, plan-built, quick-builds, or AMD-built; 2) Options included in the aircraft, e.g., wing lockers, etc.; 3) Known information about the in-flight breakup; 4) Hours on the airframe; 5) Conclusions of the FAA or NTSB regarding the accident; 5) Engines used on the aircraft; 6) Any other information that might indicate trends or patterns regarding the crash



 

 How can we make our web site more useful to you as a builder? 



 Add an RSS function to your web site so that builders will be notified automatically whenever you update the site. 	
	


 Someone needs to collect this data so that the common threads, if any, can be  identified. I would hope that ZAC has this data. I believe it would be good PR to make the data available and let the Zenith builders community pore over it.



 Terry



 

 

 Terry Phillips

 ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

 Corvallis MT

 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings

 http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/     [quote][b]

_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

bobefx(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:40 am Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

Thank you Terry, for getting my point accross better than I did. 

  

 Bobefx

 ---

swater6

Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 52
Location: Minnesota-KMIC/KANE

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:43 am Post subject: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

So, has anyone called Zenith lately to talk to Nick or Sebastian?  I'm thinking of just giving them a call and seeing what they have to say and if they can provide any additional information but would like to know if anyone has done so lately.

Scott

_________________
601 XL kit N596SW reserved
Tail, control surfaces and both wings complete. Now working on fuselage

www.scottwaters.com

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:03 am Post subject: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

Since departing ailerons have come into question and the one we know about had hinged do we know which type the others had?

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:20 am Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

The 06 crash in Ca did not have hinged ailerons and the one in Fl. did. So  that don't help much. The main problem is that no two aircraft are build exactly  the same so it would be hard to find a common problem unless it is a clear  design flaw and I don't see that. If the spar had a major flaw we would be  seeing a lot more of this as the number of 601's are finished. and 4 out of  almost 300 is a very small percentage.

  	  Quote: 	
		  Since    departing ailerons have come into question and the one we know about had    hinged do we know which type the others had?

	


 

  



Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

  [quote][b]

frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:44 am Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

Which '06 CA crash?  Oakdale or Yuba City?

  	  Quote: 	
		    From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:17:21 -0400

Subject: Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

   The 06 crash in Ca did not have hinged ailerons and the one in Fl. did. So that don't help much. The main problem is that no two aircraft are build exactly the same so it would be hard to find a common problem unless it is a clear design flaw and I don't see that. If the spar had a major flaw we would be seeing a lot more of this as the number of 601's are finished. and 4 out of almost 300 is a very small percentage.

  	  Quote: 	
		  Since departing ailerons have come into question and the one we know about had hinged do we know which type the others had?

   Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

 	  Quote: 	

arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List

p://forums.matronics.com

blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution

Express yourself wherever you are. Mobilize!  [quote][b]

swater6

Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 52
Location: Minnesota-KMIC/KANE

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:57 am Post subject: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

This was my point from an earlier posting that no one commented on.  I counted about 240 registered XL's in the US.  4 structural failures equals 1.7%.  That seems quite high to me.  I also looked at the NTSB records for the top LSA's on the market and found zero structural failures and very few fatalities.  Planes just don't break up at that rate. 



Flight design sold 232 aircraft in 2007 with many more already flying. What would everyone think of them if they had 4 structural failures in the last two years? Go ahead and look at the fatality stats for the other top LSA or even homebuilts.  Nowhere close to 1.7% structural failure rate or even fatality rate.    



I was not part of the panic crowd earlier as I tried to explain away the other issues but standing back and looking at 4 structural failures out of 240 in the US, something isn't right here.(regardless of wheather we know why)  I fully understand the risk of flying and building, but not when the deck is stacked against me from the beginning. If there are 120 of you reading this and building now, 2 of you will die from a structural failure at 1.7%.  Think that's a low number now?  What about the 120 people in your EAA chapter. Expect that 2 of them will have structural failures? 



I know we don't want to hear this but there is a problem of some sort and I'm not sure what to do now with my 80% complete airframe and brand new engine.  I don't want to invest more time and money into a flawed machine.  I wouldn't fly my 172 if 1.7% of them were failing structurally. 



If anyone wants a plane or jab 3300 let me know, I think I'm done.... 

 	  Quote: 	
		  The 06 crash in Ca did not have hinged ailerons and the one in Fl. did. So that don't help much. The main problem is that no two aircraft are build exactly the same so it would be hard to find a common problem unless it is a clear design flaw and I don't see that. If the spar had a major flaw we would be seeing a lot more of this as the number of 601's are finished. and 4 out of almost 300 is a very small percentage.

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_________________
601 XL kit N596SW reserved
Tail, control surfaces and both wings complete. Now working on fuselage

www.scottwaters.com

bobefx(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:29 pm Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

There could be a common problem. Not all kits are built by the same co. When I asked Roger at Zenith where My kit was built he said that they no longer deal with the co. and would not tell me who they were. Could there be a link as to where the kit was made? Not who built it. The materials, were any faulty or a lower grade than required. I buy steel and aluminum all the time and find a big difference depending on the manufacture. It is hard to get domestic material now days. Some steel has ball bearings in it. Hit that with a drill or while turning it and see how fast your tool blows up.

  

 Bobefx

 

 

 ---

bobefx(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:29 pm Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

There could be a common problem. Not all kits are built by the same co. When I asked Roger at Zenith where My kit was built he said that they no longer deal with the co. and would not tell me who they were. Could there be a link as to where the kit was made? Not who built it. The materials, were any faulty or a lower grade than required. I buy steel and aluminum all the time and find a big difference depending on the manufacture. It is hard to get domestic material now days. Some steel has ball bearings in it. Hit that with a drill or while turning it and see how fast your tool blows up.

  

 Bobefx

 

 

 ---

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

Scott,



You went from calling the factory to see if there was more info to selling off your plane and engine in a little over an hour. 



Slow down, man. Take a break from building if you need to.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

jim.lanier(at)charter.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:30 pm Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

I think the aileron being the weak link is unlikely.



In my opinion, the rear spar attachment is much more likely to be the 

culprit. Consider that both of these planes were near destination (I 

think). Certainly the Polk City crash was near Lakeland. If the rear 

spar attachment is a problem area, then perhaps after this long 

uneventful trip, a few degrees of flaps are added near destination 

causing a failure of a weak joint. That would explain both of these 

planes having a problem near the end of their respective flights and not 

somewhere en route at cruise speed. If the joint is weak, then it is 

going to fail eventually with or without the added encouragement of 

engaging flaps. If the rear spar attachment failed. this would also 

cause a substantial low frequency flutter visible from a ground 

observer. The wing twisting would make the main spar fail rather easily. 

The wing would be loaded in ways that would cause a catastrophic 

failure. With the wing being exposed to these forces I can see the 

aileron unzipping. Notice in the pictures that the wing creased aft of 

center along a line perpendicular to the fuselage. (You can see where 

the ribs ripped) Also, a twisting motion of a wing as it separated would 

explain how it could possibly even break the interior attachments of the 

main wing spar in the fuselage. One of the pictures shows a large 

section of center spar attached to the wing.



I hope the NTSB is thinking about these scenarios as much as we are.



Jim

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

correctly stated Frank - but as you stated, "often". Flutter always results from some instability that goes divergent - and speed simply increases the motive forces in a drastically non-linear way. Everyone talks about the light or touchy control feel in the XL. I mentioned it before but no-one but Sabrina even acknowledged it: what about anti-servo tabs to increase the control feel and centering? IF it is a flutter issue or something similar, then there is a basic instability under dynamic loads that needs to be taken care of; anti-servo systems simply increase the difficulty a pilot would have in exciting the initial event?????

Frank Roskind <frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:[quote]    .hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma }    Flutter is an interesting hypothesis, but flutter often occurs at higher true airspeeds, which come from normal indicated airspeeds at high density altitudes.  For a discussion you might read http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf

 It doesn't rule out flutter, but certainly makes it not the first place to look.

 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:51:24 -0500

 From: jmaynard(at)conmicro.com

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com>

 On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 02:39:21AM -0700, rdobson wrote:

 > After viewing photos I wonder if the aileron fluttered causing the rivets

 > attaching it to rear spar to begin to unzip, stripping rivet heads one at

 > a time, causing wing tip rotation to over  stress rear spar attachment

 > causing main spar to twist and bend . As previously stated the aileron

 > hinge looks too clean to have been firmly attached at impact.

 Okkay, so if we take this as a working hypothesis (and it seems reasonable),

 how would someone go about testing it? Put a wing in an air tunnel?

 -- 

 Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com

 http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net

 Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)

 AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

========================

Back to work after baby– how do you know when you’re ready?  [quote][b]           Be a better friend, newshound, and  [quote][b]

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