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Glide speed and carrier approaches

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bhancock(at)worldwidewarb
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: Glide speed and carrier approaches

Gang,



I like practical guides when it comes to things like this, others  

like mechanics and numbers.  I have found Pappy's rule of thumb to be  

accurate. The inboard split of the aileron seems to work well with a  

windmilling prop with the M14P....I've tried it from various  

altitudes and a 170 km/h speed (90 knots).  I seem to remember Brian  

Lloyd doing an extensive test on this some time back and posting it.   

Should be able to do an archive search....



As for carrier landings, I fly them almost exclusively....CJ, Yak,  

L-39, Lancair...it's my comfort level and fun - and the payoff at the  

end of a boring cross country flight.  That being said it is much  

more to manage in a shorter amount of time.  We fly pretty forgiving  

airplanes, but if your too tight to the runway that will require  

getting closer to the stall (due to steeper bank angle) in the  

constant turn to final.  As mentioned, too far away has other  

problems.  The critical things are airspeed and bank angle.  Just  

remember your stall speed increases with your bank angle.    If  

you're new to the overhead approach, take it slow....start your  

breaks (60 degrees of bank, 2 Gs) at the departure end of the runway  

and then progressively move them towards the approach end as you get  

more comfortable and habit patterns develop.



My two cents.



Oh, and start practicing now for the Carrier Landing competition at  

ARS.   It will be on Friday evening.  All Red Star VII is May  

14-18.  If you have not yet registered, please visit flyredstar.org  

to register now.



Cheers,



Barry

kurt(at)scitechsys.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: Glide speed and carrier approaches

Speaking of ARS - any news on Rental Cars and maybe a schedule of events?

-- 

Kurt Howerton

N923YK

http://cj6.scitechsys.com



Barry Hancock wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <bhancock(at)worldwidewarbirds.com>

 

 Gang,

 

 I like practical guides when it comes to things like this, others like

 mechanics and numbers.  I have found Pappy's rule of thumb to be

 accurate. The inboard split of the aileron seems to work well with a

 windmilling prop with the M14P....I've tried it from various altitudes

 and a 170 km/h speed (90 knots).  I seem to remember Brian Lloyd doing

 an extensive test on this some time back and posting it.  Should be able

 to do an archive search....

 

 As for carrier landings, I fly them almost exclusively....CJ, Yak, L-39,

 Lancair...it's my comfort level and fun - and the payoff at the end of a

 boring cross country flight.  That being said it is much more to manage

 in a shorter amount of time.  We fly pretty forgiving airplanes, but if

 your too tight to the runway that will require getting closer to the

 stall (due to steeper bank angle) in the constant turn to final.  As

 mentioned, too far away has other problems.  The critical things are

 airspeed and bank angle.  Just remember your stall speed increases with

 your bank angle.    If you're new to the overhead approach, take it

 slow....start your breaks (60 degrees of bank, 2 Gs) at the departure

 end of the runway and then progressively move them towards the approach

 end as you get more comfortable and habit patterns develop.

 

 My two cents.

 

 Oh, and start practicing now for the Carrier Landing competition at ARS.

   It will be on Friday evening.  All Red Star VII is May 14-18.  If

 you have not yet registered, please visit flyredstar.org to register now.

 

 Cheers,

 

 Barry

skidmk

Joined: 19 Nov 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Glide speed and carrier approaches

thanks for all the tips.....



and Barry how about dem rudder mods'

_________________
Mike "Skidmk" Bourget
Ottawa, Ontario

MarkWDavis

Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 104
Location: Syracuse, KS

Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:24 am Post subject: Glide speed and carrier approaches

The purpose of the carrier landing pattern is to recover a group of 

airplanes as quickly as possible while a carrier is turned into the wind 

with a consistent minimum interval.  Most airwings use a 45 second interval 

during the daytime.  It gives enough time to get an airplane out of the 

wires and across the foul line in time for a clear deck for the following 

aircraft.   Night time only increases to 60 seconds.   Too close of 

intervals result in foul deck waveoffs.  Too many foul deck waveoffs and the 

Captain and Admiral get pissed.  Our airwing logged the landing intervals on 

every daytime recovery to identify those that couldn't stay within +/- 5 

seconds of the 45 second target.  All aircraft must maintain a uniform 

pattern to maintain a constant interval.  That's the part we need to work 

on.  Everyone in a formation flight needs to be flying a similar pattern to 

avoid dangerously close intervals for successive landing airplanes.   The 

landing pattern needs to be briefed AND DEBRIEFED on every formation flight. 

Tight or loose doesn't matter as much as uniformity and the wingmen should 

be following the lead's distance abeam out of the break.



Mark Davis

N44YK



---

buddairbum(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: Glide speed and carrier approaches

A note on 180 degree "carrier type" approaches in a civilian context.



Although I'm flying neither a Yak nor a CJ, I make 15-25 approaches a day

instructing landings in my Pitts,in which many folks also fly 180 degree

approaches. I did too until I watched a friend, a former Scooter jockey

flying his Pitts, roll off the perch and miss seeing a C-150 on a long, low

straight in. He managed to time it so that he never saw the 150 through the

entire approach and actually touched down about 200 feet directly behind

him. He roared right up behind it until the wings popped into view around

the nose and he careened off the runway to avoid it.



The Navy can fly those kinds of approaches because everyone in their context

is flying the same kind of pattern in the same place. Plus, they are all

professionals. On a civilian field, where at least half the people in the

pattern are severely wanting in commonsense and flying ability, you never

know where they are going to be. And, once you're committed to the turn, you

don't have another chance to check final for traffic. Plus, your nose is

following traffic. I personally know two people who have landed on other

airplanes flying that approach (no physical injuries in either) and, if I

know two, there must be dozens of others.



I now put a short base leg in the approach (I call it a "belly check") to

give me one more peak. It also eliminates the problem of an over-shooting

cross wind pushing a pilot into centerline and having to tighten up the turn

at the bottom, right when you really don't want that much bank.



No one asked, but that's my two cents and it's worth what you paid.



Budd Davisson

On 4/30/08 11:21 AM, "Mark Davis" <mark(at)pld.com> wrote:



[quote] 

 

 The purpose of the carrier landing pattern is to recover a group of

 airplanes as quickly as possible while a carrier is turned into the wind

 with a consistent minimum interval.  Most airwings use a 45 second interval

 during the daytime.  It gives enough time to get an airplane out of the

 wires and across the foul line in time for a clear deck for the following

 aircraft.   Night time only increases to 60 seconds.   Too close of

 intervals result in foul deck waveoffs.  Too many foul deck waveoffs and the

 Captain and Admiral get pissed.  Our airwing logged the landing intervals on

 every daytime recovery to identify those that couldn't stay within +/- 5

 seconds of the 45 second target.  All aircraft must maintain a uniform

 pattern to maintain a constant interval.  That's the part we need to work

 on.  Everyone in a formation flight needs to be flying a similar pattern to

 avoid dangerously close intervals for successive landing airplanes.   The

 landing pattern needs to be briefed AND DEBRIEFED on every formation flight.

 Tight or loose doesn't matter as much as uniformity and the wingmen should

 be following the lead's distance abeam out of the break.

 

 Mark Davis

 N44YK

 

 ---

MarkWDavis

Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 104
Location: Syracuse, KS

Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:17 pm Post subject: Glide speed and carrier approaches

Budd,

     I agree.  I usually do a quick belly check at the 90 for one last 

glimpse for anyone on short final.  A short puff of smoke can be helpful if 

there's any question of any other traffic around.  But, as your point 

illustrates, the long low straight-in is maybe a more dangerous approach 

than a tight turning carrier type approach.  Never the less, fault is 

immaterial to the victim when someone is killed.



Mark Davis

N44YK



---

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 9:51 am Post subject: Glide speed and carrier approaches

 	  Quote: 	
		   Although I'm flying neither a Yak nor a CJ, I make 15-25 approaches  

 a day

 instructing landings in my Pitts,in which many folks also fly 180  

 degree

 approaches. I did too until I watched a friend, a former Scooter  

 jockey

 flying his Pitts, roll off the perch and miss seeing a C-150 on a  

 long, low

 straight in. He managed to time it so that he never saw the 150  

 through the

 entire approach and actually touched down about 200 feet directly  

 behind

 him. He roared right up behind it until the wings popped into view  

 around

 the nose and he careened off the runway to avoid it.


	


The pattern is a dangerous place. You have to be aware no matter where  

or how you fly the pattern. You can fly a normal 'civilian' approach  

and find other aircraft where you don't expect them to be.



One thing I can say about the continuous turn to final, you are  

exposed to so much less of the pattern so you have a smaller region to  

inspect for other traffic just before you start your turn from  

downwind. Bozo on a cross-country pattern is not a threat as he is not  

going to impinge on your airspace until well after you are no longer  

there.



And I am sure plenty of people can argue. To that I reiterate that the  

pattern is a dangerous place and one must be vigilant regardless of  

how one flies the pattern.



Hmm, one thing to consider: which is more likely to occur -- some bozo  

flying a bogus pattern or an engine failure? If Bozo is more likely  

then focusing on avoiding that scenario is likely to produce fewer  

accidents than focusing on preparing for an engine-out event. That  

might be a useful datum when trying to decide how to operate a Yak or  

CJ in the traffic pattern (circuit).



Personally, after thinking about all this and accounting for traffic,  

aircraft complexity, time needed to execute the pre-landing  

checklists, etc., I have adopted the continuous turn to final as what  

I believe to be the safest approach, even when flying spam cans. I am  

open to reasoned discussion as to why this may or may not be the  

correct answer. And, no, "well, the way I was taught in the ...," is  

not reasoned discussion unless you have a clear explanation of why you  

were taught that way.



YMMV.



Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brianl AT lloyd DOT com             Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

ChangDriver

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 266

Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: Glide speed and carrier approaches

OK, ponder these items:



1) In a prior post, it was stated "stall speed increases with angle of bank."  Well, not really.  We should all become students of the V-G diagram.  Stall speed increases with increased load factor.  It happens that load factor increases with angle of bank.  However, in some banked flight regimes, such as banked descending flight, the load factor may not increase.



2) At a controlled field, controllers will typically put an overhead break approach 500 feet above the normal pattern altitude for single engine piston aircraft.  This is in the operations manual for air traffic control.



3) The AIM provides info on the traffic pattern.  The "recommended" pattern is rectangular with left turns.  This pattern is mostly a safety of flight pattern.  It allows a pilot to get wings level before reconfiguring the aircraft (flaps, gear, change power, etc).  It also allows for a visual check of where the runway is (high wing planes) and allows a look at the final approach corridor (remember, if there is an instrument approach for the runway you are landing on, there may be instrument traffic flying an approach and not talking on your frequency yet).  Also, you will note the names of the legs are designed for position reporting.  The only items in "key traffic pattern operations" is to fly downwind at pattern altitude (unless otherwise instructed by a controller) and to complete the turn to final at least 1/4 mile before the runway.  Given this, the continuous turn to final does not conflict with the AIM.



Craig

scott.glaser(at)thedefian
Guest

Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: Glide speed and carrier approaches

I recently had some friends going for their PPL and we had a similar

discussion regarding traffic patterns.  When I was learning my instructor

bordered on being physically abusive if I was not within gliding distance of

the runway anytime after being established on downwind.  Several of my

friends who are currently working on or have recently received their PPL

looked at me with a blank stare when I asked about this technique.

Awareness of engine out gliding distance in the pattern wasn't even taught.

They did of course practice engine outs but that was merely practice for off

field situation.  They said their instruction was focused on quality of

their pattern and setting up their approach.  It was taught very much from

the airline pilot perspective.  It was kind of disturbing if you ask me, but

then again it's not how I was raised.



S  



--

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 3:23 pm Post subject: Glide speed and carrier approaches

On May 2, 2008, at 11:23 AM, <scott.glaser(at)thedefiantcompany.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I recently had some friends going for their PPL and we had a similar

 discussion regarding traffic patterns.  When I was learning my  

 instructor

 bordered on being physically abusive if I was not within gliding  

 distance of

 the runway anytime after being established on downwind.  Several of my

 friends who are currently working on or have recently received their  

 PPL

 looked at me with a blank stare when I asked about this technique.

 Awareness of engine out gliding distance in the pattern wasn't even  

 taught.


	


That is *REALLY* odd because a power-off spot landing from downwind is  

a REQUIRED maneuver for PPL. (+200'/-0' from designated touch-down  

point.)



 	  Quote: 	
		   They did of course practice engine outs but that was merely practice  

 for off

 field situation.  They said their instruction was focused on quality  

 of

 their pattern and setting up their approach.  It was taught very  

 much from

 the airline pilot perspective.  It was kind of disturbing if you ask  

 me, but

 then again it's not how I was raised.


	


That was true for a long time but the FAA has brought this home with  

the required demonstration of the power-off spot landing. I let my CFI  

lapse two years ago and had to take a check-ride again. The DE was a  

stickler on this as it had just recently been added to the list of  

required maneuvers. As a CFI one must demonstrate this to CL  

proficiency, i.e. +100'/-0' from the designated touchdown point.



Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brianl AT lloyd DOT com             Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

scott.glaser(at)thedefian
Guest

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 3:15 am Post subject: Glide speed and carrier approaches

No, no.  Sorry if I was confusing.  They did perform the power off landings

but they were never taught to keep the airplane close enough to glide to the

runway power off at all times.   Wasn't even mentioned in their training.



S



--

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 8:20 am Post subject: Glide speed and carrier approaches

On May 3, 2008, at 4:12 AM, <scott.glaser(at)thedefiantcompany.com> <scott.glaser(at)thedefiantcompany.com 

 > wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 No, no.  Sorry if I was confusing.  They did perform the power off  

 landings

 but they were never taught to keep the airplane close enough to  

 glide to the

 runway power off at all times.   Wasn't even mentioned in their  

 training.


	


Well, I think Jerry had it right. In the course of a flight you are  

rarely within gliding distance of a runway. And I did make the point  

about the likelihood of engine failure vs. dealing with bozos in the  

pattern. The incidence of bozos is much greater than the incidence of  

engine failure so if you have an either/or situation you need to  

accommodate the more likely scenario.



So maybe the right answer IS "fly the published pattern."



But I still prefer a continuous turn to final.



<sigh>



--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

buddairbum(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 12:46 pm Post subject: Glide speed and carrier approaches

Somewhere where between 2002 and 2005, the feds removed a paragraph from the

PPL PTS that said they had to set up the aircraft in such a way on approach

so as to always be within power-off gliding distance. I suspect they removed

it because it was in direct contradiction to their statements about

stabilized, power-on approaches in a later section.

On 5/3/08 9:18 AM, "Brian Lloyd" <brian-1927(at)lloyd.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 On May 3, 2008, at 4:12 AM, <scott.glaser(at)thedefiantcompany.com>

 <scott.glaser(at)thedefiantcompany.com

> wrote:

> 

> 

> No, no.  Sorry if I was confusing.  They did perform the power off

> landings

> but they were never taught to keep the airplane close enough to

> glide to the

> runway power off at all times.   Wasn't even mentioned in their

> training.

 Well, I think Jerry had it right. In the course of a flight you are

 rarely within gliding distance of a runway. And I did make the point

 about the likelihood of engine failure vs. dealing with bozos in the

 pattern. The incidence of bozos is much greater than the incidence of

 engine failure so if you have an either/or situation you need to

 accommodate the more likely scenario.

 So maybe the right answer IS "fly the published pattern."

 But I still prefer a continuous turn to final.

 <sigh>

 --

 Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

 brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

 +1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

 I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

 ‹ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

 PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

 PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

scott.glaser(at)thedefian
Guest

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 1:37 pm Post subject: Glide speed and carrier approaches

Box pattern or continuous turn question aside, back in the day they trained

you to fly a stabilized approach and still be able to make the runway.  A

homebuilt pilot found out the ramifications of being too far out at

Rosamond, CA last year.  First flight of his homebuilt Zenith.  He went for

a handful of power on base and didn't get it.  He was too far out and hence

wound up on house roof .25 mile short of the runway (across the street from

my house).  Granted this a bit of unusual situation in that it was

homebuilt's first flight but still, staying within gliding distance and

maintaining the pattern seem like a doable things considering the

consequences.



--

petervs(at)knology.net
Guest

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 6:59 am Post subject: Glide speed and carrier approaches

Why does everyone assume that a stabilized approach can only be made in a

straight line? You can fly downwind, use aimpoint out the side of the

canopy, roll off the perch and make a 180 degree turn following a constant

descent path with a constant bank angle flying your aimpoint all the way to

touchdown. That is precisely a stabilized approach. 



Squatch 



--

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