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MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 2:53 pm Post subject: Missing index holes in doors

The first step in working with the doors is to locate and drill 6 index 

holes per door (45-02).  The 2 fore index marks are missing and one of 

the window index holes has been ground away.  I have the pink doors.



Has anyone else run into this?  How did you address it. 



I have a call into Vans and they are going to attempt to take 

measurements.  This isn't going to be easy given the compound curves and 

lack of clean straight lines.  I wonder how critical the precise 

location of these holes is?



Bill "starting the door journey" Watson

Durham 40605

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 3:21 pm Post subject: Missing index holes in doors

LOL. The mating of the shells in part determines the location of the latch

box which contains the door handle. Get it wrong and your Van supplied door

pins will be too long/too short. The too short will have to be re-fabricated

from additional material. They advised me that they only make standard

length pins which is not reasonable since the location of the latch/handle

can vary due to door construction and latch placement. 



--

dc71(at)netspace.net.au
Guest

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 3:39 pm Post subject: Missing index holes in doors

From my experience with the green doors, the provided index holes  

weren't very accurate, and do affect the final fit of the door.



For my second set of (pink) doors, I centered the C-1002-B inner door  

shells in the cabin top cutout. You'll find that they will slide about  

20 mm fore and aft, and about 25 mm up and down in the cutout. I  

marked the extent of travel in all directions, then centered the door,  

and back drilled the door from the existing holes in the aluminium  

structure. The right door's index holes were correct, but the left  

door's index holes were off by about 2-3 mm.



The outer door shell can then be centered on the inner door shell,  

using the window joggle as a reference, and the four corner holes  

drilled.



FWIW, I continued to cleco the door shells all around their perimeter,  

rather than relying on clamps/weights to hold them together when gluing.



Now trimmed, hinged and latched, the doors fit extremely well.



Indran

 	  Quote: 	
		  



 The first step in working with the doors is to locate and drill 6  

 index holes per door (45-02).  The 2 fore index marks are missing  

 and one of the window index holes has been ground away.  I have the  

 pink doors.



 Has anyone else run into this?  How did you address it.

 I have a call into Vans and they are going to attempt to take  

 measurements.  This isn't going to be easy given the compound curves  

 and lack of clean straight lines.  I wonder how critical the precise  

 location of these holes is?



 Bill "starting the door journey" Watson

 Durham 40605

Lew Gallagher

Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 402
Location: Greenville , SC

Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 3:46 am Post subject: Re: Missing index holes in doors

Here's a thought on the doors.  Ours are pink and I didn't give it a whole lot of thought aligning them up prior to gluing -- the forward hole in the ear just below the windshield junction seemed to work just fine as a starting point.



What I did notice (and didn't think to share until now) was that after centering the handle mechanism in the pocket per directions, there was a slight difference in penetration of the fore and aft rods -- as mentioned above.



So what I did on the SECOND door (since the second almost always benefits from experience with the first, I try to do the least used or noticed first!) was temporarily fit the rods in the mechanism with the rods either fully extended or retracted, THEN mark it for mount in the pocket based on equal distance at the tips -- problem solved.  So if there's a slight misalignment in gluing the door halves together, at least in terms of rod extension, it doesn't matter.



Later, - Lew

_________________
non-pilot
crazy about building
NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549
Fly off completed !

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 5:00 am Post subject: Missing index holes in doors

It sounds like this approach addressed the centering of the latch 

mechanism too.

Does the cleco'ing mean that you drilled holes around the primeter of 

the door and top to clamp it during the gluing?  Makes sense to me at 

this point.

Bill "itchy" Watson

Indran Chelvanayagam wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <dc71(at)netspace.net.au>

 From my experience with the green doors, the provided index holes 

 weren't very accurate, and do affect the final fit of the door.

 For my second set of (pink) doors, I centered the C-1002-B inner door 

 shells in the cabin top cutout. You'll find that they will slide about 

 20 mm fore and aft, and about 25 mm up and down in the cutout. I 

 marked the extent of travel in all directions, then centered the door, 

 and back drilled the door from the existing holes in the aluminium 

 structure. The right door's index holes were correct, but the left 

 door's index holes were off by about 2-3 mm.

 The outer door shell can then be centered on the inner door shell, 

 using the window joggle as a reference, and the four corner holes 

 drilled.

 FWIW, I continued to cleco the door shells all around their perimeter, 

 rather than relying on clamps/weights to hold them together when gluing.

 Now trimmed, hinged and latched, the doors fit extremely well.

 Indran

>

>

> The first step in working with the doors is to locate and drill 6 

> index holes per door (45-02).  The 2 fore index marks are missing and 

> one of the window index holes has been ground away.  I have the pink 

> doors.

>

> Has anyone else run into this?  How did you address it.

> I have a call into Vans and they are going to attempt to take 

> measurements.  This isn't going to be easy given the compound curves 

> and lack of clean straight lines.  I wonder how critical the precise 

> location of these holes is?

>

> Bill "starting the door journey" Watson

> Durham 40605

dc71(at)netspace.net.au
Guest

Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 6:23 am Post subject: Missing index holes in doors

Yes definitely - clecoes all the way around the perimeter of the doors.



Indran



On 06/05/2008, at 8:57 PM, MauleDriver wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 It sounds like this approach addressed the centering of the latch  

 mechanism too.



 Does the cleco'ing mean that you drilled holes around the primeter  

 of the door and top to clamp it during the gluing?  Makes sense to  

 me at this point.



 Bill "itchy" Watson



 Indran Chelvanayagam wrote:

> 

> >

>

> From my experience with the green doors, the provided index holes  

> weren't very accurate, and do affect the final fit of the door.

>

> For my second set of (pink) doors, I centered the C-1002-B inner  

> door shells in the cabin top cutout. You'll find that they will  

> slide about 20 mm fore and aft, and about 25 mm up and down in the  

> cutout. I marked the extent of travel in all directions, then  

> centered the door, and back drilled the door from the existing  

> holes in the aluminium structure. The right door's index holes were  

> correct, but the left door's index holes were off by about 2-3 mm.

>

> The outer door shell can then be centered on the inner door shell,  

> using the window joggle as a reference, and the four corner holes  

> drilled.

>

> FWIW, I continued to cleco the door shells all around their  

> perimeter, rather than relying on clamps/weights to hold them  

> together when gluing.

>

> Now trimmed, hinged and latched, the doors fit extremely well.

>

> Indran

>>

>>

>> The first step in working with the doors is to locate and drill 6  

>> index holes per door (45-02).  The 2 fore index marks are missing  

>> and one of the window index holes has been ground away.  I have  

>> the pink doors.

>>

>> Has anyone else run into this?  How did you address it.

>> I have a call into Vans and they are going to attempt to take  

>> measurements.  This isn't going to be easy given the compound  

>> curves and lack of clean straight lines.  I wonder how critical  

>> the precise location of these holes is?

>>

>> Bill "starting the door journey" Watson

>> Durham 40605

>



Do not archive

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 7:50 am Post subject: Missing index holes in doors

The four inch hand spring clamps work great too rather than making holes in the canopy top...that is provided you still don't have either the windscreen or the rear windows in. A helpful hint also is to cut strips of 1/16 or 1/8" ply to distribute the force of the clamps. The clamps can be placed about 3-4 inches apart from one another.

 As per indexing holes on the halves, only two of mine lined up anyway on each door. They were pretty worthless. Vans fiberglass???

 Here is something no one else has mentioned. In addition to the dog ears on the lower half of the doors which index the door to the fuselage opening, I also made an aluminum jig from 1/8" aluminum. It was held onto the door with two clecoes and one hole into the existing open holes in the fuse(Total three clecoes each jig). Each door has a fore and a aft jig.These serves to keep the alignment after the dog ears are removed and can be used for all types of things. Makes sure that any subsequent fitting or sealing or pin adjusting, etc is done in exactly the same door position. KEY!

 JG

 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 08:57:27 -0400

 From: MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: RV10-List: Missing index holes in doors

 --> RV10-List message posted by: MauleDriver <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com>

 It sounds like this approach addressed the centering of the latch 

 mechanism too.

 Does the cleco'ing mean that you drilled holes around the primeter of 

 the door and top to clamp it during the gluing? Makes sense to me at 

 this point.

 Bill "itchy" Watson

 Indran Chelvanayagam wrote:

 > --> RV10-List message posted by: Indran Chelvanayagam 

 > <dc71(at)netspace.net.au>

 >

 > From my experience with the green doors, the provided index holes 

 > weren't very accurate, and do affect the final fit of the door.

 >

 > For my second set of (pink) doors, I centered the C-1002-B inner door 

 > shells in the cabin top cutout. You'll find that they will slide about 

 > 20 mm fore and aft, and about 25 mm up and down in the cutout. I 

 > marked the extent of travel in all directions, then centered the door, 

 > and back drilled the door from the existing holes in the aluminium 

 > structure. The right door's index holes were correct, but the left 

 > door's index holes were off by about 2-3 mm.

 >

 > The outer door shell can then be centered on the inner door shell, 

 > using the window joggle as a reference, and the four corner holes 

 > drilled.

 >

 > FWIW, I continued to cleco the door shells all around their perimeter, 

 > rather than relying on clamps/weights to hold them together when gluing.

 >

 > Now trimmed, hinged and latched, the doors fit extremely well.

 >

 > Indran

 >

 >

 >>

 >>

 >> The first step in working with the doors is to locate and drill 6 

 >> index holes per door (45-02). The 2 fore index marks are missing and 

 >> one of the window index holes has been ground away. I have the pink 

 >> doors.

 >>

 >> Has anyone else run into this? How did you address it.

 >> I have a call into Vans and they are going to attempt to take 

 >> measurements. This isn't going to be easy given the compound curves 

 >> and lack of clean straight lines. I wonder how critical the precise 

 >> location of these holes is?

 >>

 >> Bill "starting the door journey" Watson

 >> Durham 40605

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

&g================

 	  Quote: 	

  [quote][b]

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 8:50 am Post subject: Missing index holes in doors

John, I like the idea of the jigs for subsequent alignment.  As I understand it, the doors 'float' and I can imagine that precise alignment later can be key for a craftsman like job.  I'm going to check out those 4" clamps too.  Thanks.

 So, is Vans' fiberglass quality (steel weldments quality too) a result of it not being a core competency of theirs?   The aluminum stuff is just so sweet and the fiberglass such a pain.  Or is it just the nature of working in hand laid composites versus CAD/CNC produced aluminum structures. 

 Is Lancair's stuff substantially 'better'.  Plastic Germain sailplane equipment is fine stuff but it seems just as painful to work with as this stuff - but that is not an apples to apples comparison.

 Re "Core Competency"; I mis-drilled a big 'ol #19 hold thru a piece of aluminum and the glass top.  After referring to Acceptable Methods, I called Tech Support to discuss how to best fabricate a patch for the aluminum.  They sort of laughed off my concern about the aluminum and suggested that nothing was really required.  A subsequent check with engineering resulted in the same thing, i.e., the aluminum is probably fine but you can patch if you want.  However, the hole in the glass was a concern. I needed to be sure to plug with structural filler such as flox.  I'm thinking, 'duh, I know what to do with the glass hole but my main concern was with the aluminum structure.  I guess it's just what you are most comfortable with.

 John Gonzalez wrote: [quote]    .hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma }   The four inch hand spring clamps work great too rather than making holes in the canopy top...that is provided you still don't have either the windscreen or the rear windows in. A helpful hint also is to cut strips of 1/16 or 1/8" ply to distribute the force of the clamps. The clamps can be placed about 3-4 inches apart from one another.

 As per indexing holes on the halves, only two of mine lined up anyway on each door. They were pretty worthless. Vans fiberglass???

 Here is something no one else has mentioned. In addition to the dog ears on the lower half of the doors which index the door to the fuselage opening, I also made an aluminum jig from 1/8" aluminum. It was held onto the door with two clecoes and one hole into the existing open holes in the fuse(Total three clecoes each jig). Each door has a fore and a aft jig.These serves to keep the alignment after the dog ears are removed and can be used for all types of things. Makes sure that any subsequent fitting or sealing or pin adjusting, etc is done in exactly the same door position. KEY!

 JG

 > Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 08:57:27 -0400

 > From: MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com (MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com)

 > To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

 > Subject: Re: Missing index holes in doors

 > 

 > --> RV10-List message posted by: MauleDriver <MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com> (MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com)

 > 

 > It sounds like this approach addressed the centering of the latch 

 > mechanism too.

 > 

 > Does the cleco'ing mean that you drilled holes around the primeter of 

 > the door and top to clamp it during the gluing? Makes sense to me at 

 > this point.

 > 

 > Bill "itchy" Watson

 > 

 > Indran Chelvanayagam wrote:

 > > --> RV10-List message posted by: Indran Chelvanayagam 

 > > <dc71(at)netspace.net.au> (dc71(at)netspace.net.au)

 > >

 > > From my experience with the green doors, the provided index holes 

 > > weren't very accurate, and do affect the final fit of the door.

 > >

 > > For my second set of (pink) doors, I centered the C-1002-B inner door 

 > > shells in the cabin top cutout. You'll find that they will slide about 

 > > 20 mm fore and aft, and about 25 mm up and down in the cutout. I 

 > > marked the extent of travel in all directions, then centered the door, 

 > > and back drilled the door from the existing holes in the aluminium 

 > > structure. The right door's index holes were correct, but the left 

 > > door's index holes were off by about 2-3 mm.

 > >

 > > The outer door shell can then be centered on the inner door shell, 

 > > using the window joggle as a reference, and the four corner holes 

 > > drilled.

 > >

 > > FWIW, I continued to cleco the door shells all around their perimeter, 

 > > rather than relying on clamps/weights to hold them together when gluing.

 > >

 > > Now trimmed, hinged and latched, the doors fit extremely well.

 > >

 > > Indran

 > >

 > >

 > >>

 > >>

 > >> The first step in working with the doors is to locate and drill 6 

 > >> index holes per door (45-02). The 2 fore index marks are missing and 

 > >> one of the window index holes has been ground away. I have the pink 

 > >> doors.

 > >>

 > >> Has anyone else run into this? How did you address it.

 > >> I have a call into Vans and they are going to attempt to take 

 > >> measurements. This isn't going to be easy given the compound curves 

 > >> and lack of clean straight lines. I wonder how critical the precise 

 > >> location of these holes is?

 > >>

 > >> Bill "starting the door journey" Watson

 > >> Durham 40605

 > >

 > >

 > >

 > >

 > >

 > 

 > 

 &g================

 > 

 > 

 > 

    	  Quote: 	

 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

 href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 [b]

Jim Berry

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 237
Location: Denver

Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Missing index holes in doors

Regarding MauleDriver's question about the quality of Van's fiberglass parts: As I have mentioned in a previous post, I hired 2 local composite gurus to teach me some better fiberglass skills. Both are a&p's who spend about 90% of their time doing composite work. I mentioned the frequent grumblings on the list about the poor quality of the fiberglass parts. Their response was that the RV10 parts are better quality than they see on most of the all glass planes. These guys have worked on multiple Lancairs, Glasairs and Velocities. They said that even if the molds are perfect, the parts creep and move once they come out of the mold.



Jim Berry

40482

Finished with fiberglass. Still itch.

toaster73(at)embarqmail.c
Guest

Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 6:32 pm Post subject: Missing index holes in doors

I mentioned the tabs (dog ears) about a month ago.  :>)

 -Chris Lucas

 #40072

  

 do not archive

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msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 1:16 pm Post subject: Missing index holes in doors

Van's subcontracts the fiberglass work and I think someone once told me they sub out the weldments also.  Can you say lowest bidder?

Michael

Do not archive

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of MauleDriver

Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 11:48 AM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Missing index holes in doors

John, I like the idea of the jigs for subsequent alignment.  As I understand it, the doors 'float' and I can imagine that precise alignment later can be key for a craftsman like job.  I'm going to check out those 4" clamps too.  Thanks.

So, is Vans' fiberglass quality (steel weldments quality too) a result of it not being a core competency of theirs?   The aluminum stuff is just so sweet and the fiberglass such a pain.  Or is it just the nature of working in hand laid composites versus CAD/CNC produced aluminum structures.

Is Lancair's stuff substantially 'better'.  Plastic Germain sailplane equipment is fine stuff but it seems just as painful to work with as this stuff - but that is not an apples to apples comparison.

Re "Core Competency"; I mis-drilled a big 'ol #19 hold thru a piece of aluminum and the glass top.  After referring to Acceptable Methods, I called Tech Support to discuss how to best fabricate a patch for the aluminum.  They sort of laughed off my concern about the aluminum and suggested that nothing was really required.  A subsequent check with engineering resulted in the same thing, i.e., the aluminum is probably fine but you can patch if you want.  However, the hole in the glass was a concern. I needed to be sure to plug with structural filler such as flox.  I'm thinking, 'duh, I know what to do with the glass hole but my main concern was with the aluminum structure.  I guess it's just what you are most comfortable with.

John Gonzalez wrote:

The four inch hand spring clamps work great too rather than making holes in the canopy top...that is provided you still don't have either the windscreen or the rear windows in. A helpful hint also is to cut strips of 1/16 or 1/8" ply to distribute the force of the clamps. The clamps can be placed about 3-4 inches apart from one another.

As per indexing holes on the halves, only two of mine lined up anyway on each door. They were pretty worthless. Vans fiberglass???

Here is something no one else has mentioned. In addition to the dog ears on the lower half of the doors which index the door to the fuselage opening, I also made an aluminum jig from 1/8" aluminum. It was held onto the door with two clecoes and one hole into the existing open holes in the fuse(Total three clecoes each jig). Each door has a fore and a aft jig.These serves to keep the alignment after the dog ears are removed and can be used for all types of things. Makes sure that any subsequent fitting or sealing or pin adjusting, etc is done in exactly the same door position. KEY!

JG

[quote] Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 08:57:27 -0400

 From: MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com<mailto:MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com>

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com<mailto:rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

 Subject: Re: Missing index holes in doors

 It sounds like this approach addressed the centering of the latch

 mechanism too.

 Does the cleco'ing mean that you drilled holes around the primeter of

 the door and top to clamp it during the gluing? Makes sense to me at

 this point.

 Bill "itchy" Watson

 Indran Chelvanayagam wrote:

 > 

 > <dc71(at)netspace.net.au><mailto:dc71(at)netspace.net.au>

 >

 > From my experience with the green doors, the provided index holes

 > weren't very accurate, and do affect the final fit of the door.

 >

 > For my second set of (pink) doors, I centered the C-1002-B inner door

 > shells in the cabin top cutout. You'll find that they will slide about

 > 20 mm fore and aft, and about 25 mm up and down in the cutout. I

 > marked the extent of travel in all directions, then centered the door,

 > and back drilled the door from the existing holes in the aluminium

 > structure. The right door's index holes were correct, but the left

 > door's index holes were off by about 2-3 mm.

 >

 > The outer door shell can then be centered on the inner door shell,

 > using the window joggle as a reference, and the four corner holes

 > drilled.

 >

 > FWIW, I continued to cleco the door shells all around their perimeter,

 > rather than relying on clamps/weights to hold them together when gluing

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject: Missing index holes in doors

You would be mistaken if you believe it has anything to do with lowest bidder.  Van tends to award a lot of production items to friends, acquaintances and established business relationships.  Can anyone identify the parts used that have a connection to Tom Green, President?  Van may be frugal but going for the lowest bid implies a willingness to cut a corner and that is not necessarily connected.  

   

Now having more than a single supplier might be a great QC idea.  QC is an issue that deserves discussion.  

   

Contrary to some feeling the RV-10 composite is superior in production finish to Lancair, I say Bunk.  The chemistry and quality of fitment is generations ahead of Vans.  JMHO.  I understand that Vans does sub out both the weldment and the metal treatment to single source.  His loyalty to suppliers is legendary.  

   

John   

Do Not Archive  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)

 Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 2:12 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Missing index holes in doors  

  

  

   

 Van’s subcontracts the fiberglass work and I think someone once told me they sub out the weldments also.  Can you say lowest bidder?  

   

Michael  

Do not archive  

   

      [quote][b]

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 3:03 pm Post subject: Missing index holes in doors

You are correct that the quality of the VANS composite  parts are below others. Having built a Glastar, I find that even the Glastar  parts of 10 years ago superior to VANS current efforts in the  composite  area.

   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John  Cox

Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 3:27 PM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Missing index holes in  doors

You  would be mistaken if you believe it has anything to do with lowest bidder.   Van tends to award a lot of production items to friends, acquaintances and  established business relationships.  Can anyone identify the parts used  that have a connection to Tom Green, President?  Van may be frugal but  going for the lowest bid implies a willingness to cut a corner and that is not  necessarily connected. 

Now  having more than a single supplier might be a great QC idea.  QC is an  issue that deserves discussion. 

Contrary  to some feeling the RV-10 composite is superior in production finish to Lancair,  I say Bunk.  The chemistry and quality of fitment is generations ahead of  Vans.  JMHO.  I understand that Vans does sub out both the weldment  and the metal treatment to single source.  His loyalty to suppliers is  legendary. 

John   

Do  Not Archive 

From:  owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder  (Michael Sausen)

Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 2:12 PM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Missing index holes in  doors

 Van’s  subcontracts the fiberglass work and I think someone once told me they sub out  the weldments also.  Can you say lowest bidder? 

Michael 

Do  not archive 

[quote]

href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: Missing index holes in doors

It is unfortunate that the Repeat Offenders and new Van kit builders believe the Vans parts to be acceptable.  The developments in solvents, cements, potting compounds and substrates are easily a decade ahead of what is "Vans - State of the Art".  I found it interesting to hear the guys at Composites Unlimited who are equal or second only to Scaled Composites in moving the bar.  

   

They can often tell by the product who built it and what was used because the changes have been so pronounced.  What the RV-10 list needs are Composite guys like you who have dealt with professionals at Phoenix Composites to bring us into the 21st century and not circa 1958.  Abarus training in Nevada does a pretty compelling job and then you stack it against the home projects at OSH and it all falls into a logical order.  

   

John  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill

 Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 4:00 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Missing index holes in doors  

  

  

   

You are correct that the quality of the VANS composite parts are below others. Having built a Glastar, I find that even the Glastar parts of 10 years ago superior to VANS current efforts in the composite area.  

       

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cox

 Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 3:27 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Missing index holes in doors  

You would be mistaken if you believe it has anything to do with lowest bidder.  Van tends to award a lot of production items to friends, acquaintances and established business relationships.  Can anyone identify the parts used that have a connection to Tom Green, President?  Van may be frugal but going for the lowest bid implies a willingness to cut a corner and that is not necessarily connected.  

   

Now having more than a single supplier might be a great QC idea.  QC is an issue that deserves discussion.  

   

Contrary to some feeling the RV-10 composite is superior in production finish to Lancair, I say Bunk.  The chemistry and quality of fitment is generations ahead of Vans.  JMHO.  I understand that Vans does sub out both the weldment and the metal treatment to single source.  His loyalty to suppliers is legendary.  

   

John   

Do Not Archive  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)

 Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 2:12 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Missing index holes in doors  

  

  

   

 Van’s subcontracts the fiberglass work and I think someone once told me they sub out the weldments also.  Can you say lowest bidder?  

   

Michael  

Do not archive  

   [quote]  href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c  [/b][/b][/b][/b][/b][/b]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List[/b][/b][/b][/b]http://forums.matronics.com[/b][/b][/b][/b][/b]http://www.matronics.com/contribution[/b][/b] [b]

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 3:49 am Post subject: Missing index holes in doors

Well, I guess I do find the Vans composite parts acceptably not "State of the Art".  Of course, I wouldn't know "state of the art" if I sanded right through it.  But the beauty of the '10 (and perhaps the rest of the RV line) is the balance struck between technologies used, design choices , building ease, and economy. 

 

 Lancair-ish composites are closer to "state of the art".  This aluminum stuff was leading edge between the wars.  But it's real comfortable homebuilding an aircraft with a 75 year old technology at the peak of it's maturity.  For this builder, that "maturity" of the RV line and  '10 product in particular makes it the only aircraft I would be building at this point.

 

 I view the glass content on the '10 as an optimal design decision and a necessary compromise on what would otherwise be an all aluminum aircraft.  Otherwise, why mix technologies and complicate both the production of the kit and the building process.  A "state of the art" performance in composites may cost more than desired or simply be beyond the core skill set of the Vans operation.  Probably a combination of both.

 

 It's an  acceptable set of compromises to my eyes.  Of course I'm flying a Maule - a true composite aircraft with steel tube, fabric, aluminum, and fiberglass.    A product of  grassroots design,  crude construction,  and open air painting.  A successful  exercise in low cost and low tech by a family business in rural GA.   It works, it's cheap, and it's cute.  On the other end of the scale, I owned a couple of racing sailplanes.  High design exercises from the German craftsman school of engineering and manufacture.  Pricey, ultimate performance airframes.  After some wing profiling and gear door repairs, I decided composites were nice to fly but an acquired taste to work with.

 

 Bill "gonna sand some doors" Watson

 First timer in Durham

 

 John Cox wrote: [quote]         v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}  <![endif]-->          <![endif]-->       <![endif]-->      

It is unfortunate that the Repeat Offenders and new Van kit builders believe the Vans parts to be acceptable.  The developments in solvents, cements, potting compounds and substrates are easily a decade ahead of what is "Vans - State of the Art".  I found it interesting to hear the guys at Composites Unlimited who are equal or second only to Scaled Composites in moving the bar.   

    

They can often tell by the product who built it and what was used because the changes have been so pronounced.  What the RV-10 list needs are Composite guys like you who have dealt with professionals at Phoenix Composites to bring us into the 21st century and not circa 1958.  Abarus training in Nevada does a pretty compelling job and then you stack it against the home projects at OSH and it all falls into a logical order.   

    

 [b]

msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 7:37 am Post subject: Missing index holes in doors

I know, just trying to be nice.  J  

   

Do not archive  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cox

 Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 5:27 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Missing index holes in doors  

  

  

   

You would be mistaken if you believe it has anything to do with lowest bidder.  Van tends to award a lot of production items to friends, acquaintances and established business relationships.  Can anyone identify the parts used that have a connection to Tom Green, President?  Van may be frugal but going for the lowest bid implies a willingness to cut a corner and that is not necessarily connected.  

   

Now having more than a single supplier might be a great QC idea.  QC is an issue that deserves discussion.  

   

Contrary to some feeling the RV-10 composite is superior in production finish to Lancair, I say Bunk.  The chemistry and quality of fitment is generations ahead of Vans.  JMHO.  I understand that Vans does sub out both the weldment and the metal treatment to single source.  His loyalty to suppliers is legendary.  

   

John   

Do Not Archive  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)

 Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 2:12 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Missing index holes in doors  

  

  

   

 Van’s subcontracts the fiberglass work and I think someone once told me they sub out the weldments also.  Can you say lowest bidder?  

   

Michael  

Do not archive  

    	  Quote: 	
		    ;         - The RV10-List Email For  --> http://www.matronics.bsp;          - MATRONICS WEB http://forums.matronics.com</==================[/b] 	
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ron.mcgann(at)baesystems.
Guest

Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 2:50 pm Post subject: Missing index holes in doors

'. . . . RV10 composite is superior in production finish to  Lancair . . .'  

  

 Good  one John - I needed a little humor first thing on a monday morning after  spending a weekend trying to get my #$%&^$*^%* wing tip trailing edges to  align with the flaps/ailerons.

  

 cheers,

 Ron

 187  initial flight control rigging 

  

 



 [quote]         From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com    [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John    Cox

Sent: Saturday, 10 May 2008 7:57 AM

To:    rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Missing index holes    in doors

   

      

You    would be mistaken if you believe it has anything to do with lowest    bidder.  Van tends to award a lot of production items to friends,    acquaintances and established business relationships.  Can anyone    identify the parts used that have a connection to Tom Green, President?     Van may be frugal but going for the lowest bid implies a willingness to cut a    corner and that is not necessarily connected.   

    

Now    having more than a single supplier might be a great QC idea.  QC is an    issue that deserves discussion.   

    

Contrary    to some feeling the RV-10 composite is superior in production finish to    Lancair, I say Bunk.  The chemistry and quality of fitment is generations    ahead of Vans.  JMHO.  I understand that Vans does sub out both the    weldment and the metal treatment to single source.  His loyalty to    suppliers is legendary.   

    

John       

Do    Not Archive   

          

From:    owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com    [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder    (Michael Sausen)

Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 2:12 PM

To:    rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Missing index holes    in doors



   

    

 Van’s    subcontracts the fiberglass work and I think someone once told me they sub out    the weldments also.  Can you say lowest bidder?   

    

Michael   

Do    not archive   

 

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[b]

precisedix

Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Posts: 1

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:08 am Post subject: Re: Missing index holes in doors

It is unfortunate that the Repeat Offenders and new Van kit builders believe the Vans parts to be acceptable. The developments in solvents, cements, potting compounds and substrates are easily a decade ahead of what is "Vans - State of the Art". How is that man???





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aluminum plate

Last edited by precisedix on Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:14 am; edited 1 time in total

vhicy(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:20 am Post subject: Missing index holes in doors

Dont put us repeat ofenders all in one basket!



Chris VH-ICY

Do not archive



---

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:41 am Post subject: Missing index holes in doors

Most builders would likely agree how easy it is to accept the recommendation of a respected firm that already consistently produces kits which are easy to build and contain reliability of quality for just about any novice tinkerer.  I can't speak to R.O.s.

  

 I will say that products, chemicals, processes, tools & build talent are moving (improving) at a far greater pace than most companies with sustained production power will adapt and incorporate - that is technology on the march.

  

 I for one, love the cooperative sharing of this community and the ability to improve, enhance or just modify a great product... "the four passengar cruiser airplane" with actual room to move during a memorable flight even while sitting in the back with the kids, another adult friend or the family dog.

  

 Repeat Offenders... their name reveals their passion.

  

 Of only our governments were more progressive, more entreprenuerial and less socialistic.  Oshkosh tends to equalize that every year for one long but nostalgically brief week.

  



  John Cox



 

  From: Chris and Susie

Sent: Mon 3/23/2009 2:18 AM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Missing index holes in doors

 [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "Chris and Susie" <vhicy(at)bigpond.com>  Dont put us repeat ofenders all in one basket!  Chris VH-ICY Do not archive  ---

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