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Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
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AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 2:19 pm Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline

No.  It deals with the lead within the air/fuel mixture (and works at

higher temperatures) but lead which settles out into the oil begins to

coat internal parts in the engine.  The clutch is particularly

susceptible.



John.



--

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 2:19 pm Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline

What I've read about TCP, all within the past nine months, is it works

really well to keep the top end of the cylinder clean.  That means it will

be a great boon to the folks flying anything four stroke.  

Two stroke engines are a bit of a different animal...  They have roller

bearings on the crankshaft that are exposed to unburned gas.  TCP has to be

burned to work and in the base of a two stroke engine there isn't any

burning going on so it will not protect your engine from lead deposits

building up on the main bearings which can cause those bearings to fail.  It

will help stop plug fouling and will help keep crud out of your ring gaps

but you will never know when you may get a main bearing lap.



If there is anyone out there who knows how to precipitate the lead out of

100ll please let us all know.  



Now I'm thinking out loud ... why not get the appropriate governments

departments to authorize a lead free, ethanol free aviation gasoline.  Call

it 95NL (No lead) and make it a consistent formula so you will get the same

gas whether you live in Anchorage, Ottawa, Omaha or Adelaide. 



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 2:59 pm Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline

Fortunately for you the chances you will see a phase separation in Arizona

with all its rain, snow, fog and sleet I'd expect to be slim.  Too bad the

guys in Nova Scotia, Maine, Connecticut or Washington can't say the same.



BTW when you do get a phase separation (E10) you will get no less than 10%

of your fuel on board separate into water/eth from the gas...  So if your

plane has 20 gal aboard and you get a phase separation expect to see a bit

over 2 gal of water in the bottom of your tanks right where the fuel pickup

is.  That is one of the dangers of ethanol contaminated fuel there is really

no way, short of doing an on the spot titration, factoring in delta t (temp)

of determining how close you are to a phase separation...  If you drip your

tanks/sumps and get any water, you will get a lot of water.  Maybe not

enough to sink the Titanic but it will seem to be that much and sure as

there is little green apples, you will get enough water/ethanol mix to stop

any infernal combustion engine.



You might be amazed at how much moisture the eth will absorb in one cool dew

laden night Especially if the tanks are less than full..  In a week you

could easily have enough to cause a phase separation.  When you buy your gas

at the service station there is no way for you to check exactly how much

moisture it contains.  In other words its like a time bomb...  It may never

go off but if it does you have no way of telling when.



If you use this crud in your car a good idea would be to keep the tank

topped up at all times so there is much less space for condensation to form.

Also be sure to only by contaminated fuel from high volume outlets



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

gfmjr_20(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 3:34 pm Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline

Noel--

   I do not know if you fly a rotax engine. It does not sound like you do.  I have been flying both two stroke and four stroke Rotax engines for about 8 years. Most of the flying has been in Maine and New Hampshire and we have been using ethanol based fuels for at least have that time with no problems. 

 Not that I particularly wanted to used it but it was convienent.

  

 I have never had a phase separation and I do fly year round. Altittudes are usually 1500 to 6000 feet with a few flights at 9-10000 feet. In fact, I do not know of anyone in this area experiencing what you are concerned about. As is good preflight practice, I do check my sumps and gascolator before each flight.  The little water I see is usually due to condensation. I do agree with you on the condensation possiblities, especially in the early spring and fall in New England. Common practice is to keep the tanks topped off to avoid the condensation.

  

     Everyone has to evaluate their own issues for each flight, I just think on this point you might be a bit over concerned, at least when dealing with Rotax engines.

  

 George may

 601XL 912s



[quote] From: noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca

 To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline

 Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 20:25:40 -0230

 

 --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>

 

 Fortunately for you the chances you will see a phase separation in Arizona

 with all its rain, snow, fog and sleet I'd expect to be slim. Too bad the

 guys in Nova Scotia, Maine, Connecticut or Washington can't say the same.

 

 BTW when you do get a phase separation (E10) you will get no less than 10%

 of your fuel on board separate into water/eth from the gas... So if your

 plane has 20 gal aboard and you get a phase separation expect to see a bit

 over 2 gal of water in the bottom of your tanks right where the fuel pickup

 is. That is one of the dangers of ethanol contaminated fuel there is really

 no way, short of doing an on the spot titration, factoring in delta t (temp)

 of determining how close you are to a phase separation... If you drip your

 tanks/sumps and get any water, you will get a lot of water. Maybe not

 enough to sink the Titanic but it will seem to be that much and sure as

 there is little green apples, you will get enough water/ethanol mix to stop

 any infernal combustion engine.

 

 You might be amazed at how much moisture the eth will absorb in one cool dew

 laden night Especially if the tanks are less than full.. In a week you

 could easily have enough to cause a phase separation. When you buy your gas

 at the service station there is no way for you to check exactly how much

 moisture it contains. In other words its like a time bomb... It may never

 go off but if it does you have no way of telling when.

 

 If you use this crud in your car a good idea would be to keep the tank

 topped up at all times so there is much less space for condensation to form.

 Also be sure to only by contaminated fuel from high volume outlets

 

 Noel

 

 --

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 3:34 pm Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline

Sorry... I hit the send button before checking my data.

You will find the data at

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf



Phase separation from E10 gas occurs when the water reaches .5% water by

volume at 60 F

For 20 U.S. gallons that is .1 gallon or 3.2 OZ. + 2 gal of ethanol.



There is a graph there that shows at 60 F and 4.5% water by volume a phase

separation will not occur but lower the temperature a measly ten F to 50

degrees an you will have a phase separation.  Funny how the temperature

tends to drop as the altitude increases.  With fuel so laden with moisture

you will probably experience a phase separation inside the carb which can

show itself as carb ice.  Once separated it will not dissolve again when the

temperature increases to  60 F again.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline

As far as flying with Ethanol laced mogas at altitude, in the event the

Ethanol absorbed a reasonable amount of water to make it close to

saturated, whats thoughts on adding some pure Isopropyl alcohol? Would

that not ward off phase change a bit?



I owned a 1948 C-170, the right tank drain was not at absolute lowest

point due to fact that too much weld was used during addition of tank

drain. No matter how careful would raise a wing and let sit and drain,

after 3 hours of flying water droplets could (and did several times) make

their way into gasculator and quit motor for longer than I cared for.

Twice a year changing of O-Rings on fuel caps did not cure. Twice a year

changing of O-Rings and addition of 1.5 quarts (33 gallons of fuel) of

Isopropyl Alcohol if even 1 drop of water was found worked for me for 15

years.



Ron Parigoris

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline

FAA doesn't say not to fly above 10,000 ft with any engine I know of.  But

the last poster did say the chances of vapour lock while using ethanol

contaminated fuel increased above 10,000 ft.  I think that becomes a problem

for guys living in mountain locales.



I have already had warrantee work completed on my 582-UL and except for the

six weeks or so I was without an engine I have no complaints....  BTW in

that six weeks I may have been able to fly only once.  Bob Robertson, who's

company is a Canadian Rotax repair depot has been a wealth of info and so

far has not steered me wrong.  So I think I'll keep my warrantee for the

time of being.



You do have a point though starting is absolutely the worst thing you can do

to any piston engine.  Turbines go from bad to worse.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 6:04 pm Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline

George:    

   

On one occasion I had a snowmobile that, I found out later had ethanol put into the tank to dry up some snow that accidentally got into the tank.  The next year I had the worst mess I’ve ever seen in my tank.  Moisture and condensation in the tank was absorbed by the ethanol and when fall weather came around the darn stuff had a phase separation.  At the time I had no idea what caused it but I saves some in a coffee jar.  A friend who owned a commercial lab told me exactly what happened.  Having it happen in a parked snowmobile is one thing but having it happen in a plane at altitude ... no thanks.  

   

The problem with ethanol fuel is there is no way to tell how much moisture there is in the fuel.  Unless you have a sealed pressurized fuel system and you supplier has the same you can be sure you will have some moisture in your fuel...  The question is how much.  The answer is impossible to tell until it separates.  This is not a problem explicitly for Rotax engines that is why the FAA will not endorse the use of ethanol contaminated fuels for any aircraft.  On this point I back them 100%  

   

What I’m saying is there is enough things to go wrong while flying.  Being very familiar with Mr. Murphy and his Law, I personally like to minimize the number of things that can go wrong.  Ethanol free fuel is a step in that direction.  As I said with a sealed CO2 pressurized fuel system and fuel injection and a good fresh source of gas even corrupted with ethanol you’re probably as safe as anything flying.  As far as I know they don’t like pressurized fuel systems anywhere in aviation so the only other safe option is to avoid ethanol contaminated fuel.  

   

I realize that is not always convenient so the answer is to lobby for a safe supply of unleaded, non ethanol fuel that is as consistent as 100LL.  I’ll bet if you could get such a fuel at your FBO that’s what you’d be using.  

   

As I said last night, I feel a bit guilty talking about this because the chances I’ll have to put up with ethanol contaminated fuel here are about the same as a snowball in hell.  It’s the next thing to logistically impossible to get the stuff here what little has arrived here (E5) got a bad rep as poor fuel and had to be diluted down with real gas.  The owners of the ship were not impressed with the fact they were carrying ethanol either.  I guess we Newfoundlanders will have to be content to imbibe our ethanol after flying... in Rum, Gin or Scotch.  If we ever run out of that there is always beer J.  

   

Noel  

       

From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of george may

 Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 8:58 PM

 To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline  

  

  

   

Noel--

   I do not know if you fly a rotax engine. It does not sound like you do.  I have been flying both two stroke and four stroke Rotax engines for about 8 years. Most of the flying has been in Maine and New Hampshire and we have been using ethanol based fuels for at least have that time with no problems. 

 Not that I particularly wanted to used it but it was convienent.

  

 I have never had a phase separation and I do fly year round. Altittudes are usually 1500 to 6000 feet with a few flights at 9-10000 feet. In fact, I do not know of anyone in this area experiencing what you are concerned about. As is good preflight practice, I do check my sumps and gascolator before each flight.  The little water I see is usually due to condensation. I do agree with you on the condensation possiblities, especially in the early spring and fall in New England. Common practice is to keep the tanks topped off to avoid the condensation.

  

     Everyone has to evaluate their own issues for each flight, I just think on this point you might be a bit over concerned, at least when dealing with Rotax engines.

  

 George may

 601XL 912s

 

 > From: noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca

 > To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

 > Subject: RE: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline

 > Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 20:25:40 -0230

 > 

 > --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>

 > 

 > Fortunately for you the chances you will see a phase separation in Arizona

 > with all its rain, snow, fog and sleet I'd expect to be slim. Too bad the

 > guys in Nova Scotia, Maine, Connecticut or Washington can't say the same.

 > 

 > BTW when you do get a phase separation (E10) you will get no less than 10%

 > of your fuel on board separate into water/eth from the gas... So if your

 > plane has 20 gal aboard and you get a phase separation expect to see a bit

 > over 2 gal of water in the bottom of your tanks right where the fuel pickup

 > is. That is one of the dangers of ethanol contaminated fuel there is really

 > no way, short of doing an on the spot titration, factoring in delta t (temp)

 > of determining how close you are to a phase separation... If you drip your

 > tanks/sumps and get any water, you will get a lot of water. Maybe not

 > enough to sink the Titanic but it will seem to be that much and sure as

 > there is little green apples, you will get enough water/ethanol mix to stop

 > any infernal combustion engine.

 > 

 > You might be amazed at how much moisture the eth will absorb in one cool dew

 > laden night Especially if the tanks are less than full.. In a week you

 > could easily have enough to cause a phase separation. When you buy your gas

 > at the service station there is no way for you to check exactly how much

 > moisture it contains. In other words its like a time bomb... It may never

 > go off but if it does you have no way of telling when.

 > 

 > If you use this crud in your car a good idea would be to keep the tank

 > topped up at all times so there is much less space for condensation to form.

 > Also be sure to only by contaminated fuel from high volume outlets

 > 

 > Noel

 > 

 > --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline

Addition of even more alcohol will stave off phase separation a bit.  The

question is how much extra to add and how much moisture is already in the

fuel?  My idea is the answer is to that best not to have any moisture in the

fuel that precludes any alcohol in the gas.



I'll bet your A&P and the local FAA didn't know you were using alcohol in

your fuel...  They would not have been impressed.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

henry.voris

Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Posts: 116
Location: Pueo Field, Kula, Maui

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 11:38 pm Post subject: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline

I had some questions about ethanol, fuel and Mr.Funnel, so I ran some tests...



I used two sample jars, each containing 1,000 cc of fuel (Gasoline/10% Ethanol).



***************************



Jar #1: I would add to the fuel 0.3 cc water. The water would form a small bead at the bottom of the jar. I would shake the jar vigorously and the water would dissolve, leaving the fuel a clear liquid.



I repeated this process 15 times... After adding a total of 4.5 cc's of water the fuel became cloudy and began to show signs of phase separation. I continued the water process twice more, (to 5.1 cc's) just to get a good phase separation going.



After observing phase separation between the fuel and the ethanol/water, I shook the jar vigorously to mix the whole mess up again and poured it through my Mr.Funnel. I saved the residue from the trap in a separate sample jar.



Shortly the concoction cleared and there was a big blob of ethanol/water at the bottom of the fuel jar... It had passed right through my Mr.Funnel. Bummer... The fuel from the trap looked the same as the fuel that had passed through the filter, both had water at the bottom.

***************************



Jar #2: I added 4.0 cc (just 0.5 cc less than the amount needed to start phase separation) of water to the fuel. The water formed a bead at the bottom of the jar. I shook the jar vigorously and the water dissolved into the fuel leaving it a clear liquid. I poured it through my Mr.Funnel. I saved the residue from the trap in a separate sample jar.



At sunset, some eight hours later the fuel was still crystal clear with no signs of phase separation, no signs of the water I had put in. The temperature during the day was between 70Âº and 75Âº.



At 0500 the next morning the temperature was 55Âº. And the fuel had separated. There was a clear blob of ethanol/water rolling around the bottom of the fuel jar. The fuel saved from Mr.Funnel's trap had separated also. The proportions of junk to fuel in the jar and in the trap seemed to be the same, leading me to believe the water passed through the filter with little to no restrictions.

***************************



I suspected that some of the moving parts in my Mr.Funnel were out of tune. I called a pal and even though he flies a Quicksilver, I was able to borrow his Mr.Funnel. I ran the above tests again, and I got the same results...

***************************



Conclusions:



Jar #1... Mr.Funnel will not separate the water from a "Gasoline/10% Ethanol" mix that has suffered phase separation. Both the fuel and the water/ethanol sludge pass through the filter.

Jar #2...



A. The "Gasoline/10% Ethanol" mix has the ability to absorb water in a way that is visually undetectable.



B. The water absorbed in this fuel will pass through Mr.Funnel with the fuel.



C. Fuel that has absorbed sufficient water, can suffer phase separation by simply lowering the temperature.

In short, it is possible to have fuel that appears to be good while on the ground. It can be run through Mr.Funnel... But if it is used to fly... it could cool enough to suffer phase separation in the tank. The unburnable ethanol/water mess will sink to the bottom of the tank.

***************************



Reality Check:



A. In a perfect world... If you chose a gas station that moves a lot of fuel... the odds of getting fuel with water is quite low. If the refinery to pump system is tight, the ethanol should absorb any stray water as it moves through the system. Thus the delivery system should contain no water at all.... I don't live in a perfect world.



B. I will continue to use my Mr.Funnel to trap all the other junk I keep finding in my fuel...



C. I ordered a gasolator.

***************************



Aloha,

Henry

Kolb FireFly Five-Charlie-Bravo

_________________
Henry
Firefly Five-Charlie-Bravo

Do Not Archive

jd(at)lawsonimaging.ca
Guest

Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 4:45 am Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline

rampil wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   As for the fabled engine warranty, Rotax and every other engine

 manufacturer provides a warranty that is pretty close to worthless.

 They will assure that the engine runs when you get it (not when you

 finish your plane) and after that, practically speaking, forget it.


	


Actually, the Jabiru warranty starts at the independently verified first 

*flight*!



-- 

Regards,  J.



flying:   Zenith STOL CH701/912 C-IGGY, 500 hrs.

building: Sonex #325 (C-FJNJ), Jabiru 3300/6, 99% completed



-------------------------------------------------

J. Davis, M.Sc. (computer science)

*NIX consulting, SysAdmin

email: jd at lawsonimaging.ca

voice: 519.289.1527 http://www.cleco.ca

c/o Brandywine Aviation 5507 Irish Dr., Appin, ON

N42 47.33  W081 36.50 31/13 2000+ x 60', elev: 740'

-------------------------------------------------



To most people the sky is the limit.

To those who love aviation, the sky is home.

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 4:45 am Post subject: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline

Henry,



Your careful study is very much appreciated. Now you know why Type Certificated Aircraft all have gascolators and they are also required by the ASTM standards for SLSA.



Another variable worth noting in the E-10 vs pure gasoline vs 100LL is the energy content and anti-knock qualities. See attached table. Note in particular the following:

1. Not all alcohols are the same

2. E-10 has less energy content than pure gasoline

3. E-10 has slightly more energy content than 100LL

fuels.jpg

Description:

Fuel comparison

Filesize:

80.79 KB

Viewed:

514 Time(s)

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 5:59 am Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline

The Mr funnel relies on a SG              differential in between the

gasoline and water to remove the water.  When you introduce ethanol into the

equation you will set up a phase relationship, not quite a solution, between

the ethanol, water and gas this phased liquid will pass right through a Mr.

Funnel.



If you are keeping track of the temperature in your hangar and only fly on

warm days. If you didn't get a phase separation overnight then you probably

won't get a phase separation while you are flying if you don't go near your

overnight low temperature. 



I would be interested in finding out how large the water bubble that

separated out was.  Knowing that you will know how much water to expect if

you get a separation in flight.



I'd try it here but we fortunately don't have any ethanol laced gas here....

I suppose I could make my own but the only place to buy pure ethanol is the

liquor commission and you have to have a viable reason to purchase it.  I

don't think experimentation will cut it.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

rsteele(at)rjsit.com
Guest

Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 8:48 am Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline

This has been an interesting discussion.  What I don't understand, is  

that if E10 is as unstable as claimed, how do cars use it?  I've had  

a car with a 1/2 tank of E10 sitting in near or below freezing  

weather for weeks in damp conditions - often - and never had the  

slightest problem.  I don't live on a mountain, but I've never heard  

of people that do having any problems either.  This just doesn't gibe  

with what I'm reading here.



Something else, ethanol and water mixed is flammable up to 50% water  

(the historical reason behind 100 proof liquor being 50% alcohol).   

That's not to say it would run an engine, but perhaps it should be  

factored into the thinking.



There are obvious risks running E10 in a plane, but there are also  

risks running 100LL in a Rotax - like you don't really don't know  

what the 100LL is doling to your PRSU - probably the least reliable  

part of the whole plane.



Great discussion.



Ron



On May 10, 2008, at 9:56 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:



[quote] 

 <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>



 The Mr funnel relies on a SG              differential in between the

 gasoline and water to remove the water.  When you introduce ethanol  

 into the

 equation you will set up a phase relationship, not quite a  

 solution, between

 the ethanol, water and gas this phased liquid will pass right  

 through a Mr.

 Funnel.



 If you are keeping track of the temperature in your hangar and only  

 fly on

 warm days. If you didn't get a phase separation overnight then you  

 probably

 won't get a phase separation while you are flying if you don't go  

 near your

 overnight low temperature.



 I would be interested in finding out how large the water bubble that

 separated out was.  Knowing that you will know how much water to  

 expect if

 you get a separation in flight.



 I'd try it here but we fortunately don't have any ethanol laced gas  

 here....

 I suppose I could make my own but the only place to buy pure  

 ethanol is the

 liquor commission and you have to have a viable reason to purchase  

 it.  I

 don't think experimentation will cut it.



 Noel



 --

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 10:05 am Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline

Parts which are still used in aircraft with a more primitive and yet

reliable ignition system couple to make use of Ethanol in aircraft a

"non FAA approved activity".  Automobiles have replaced products

susceptible to ethanol damage and use sophisticated computer programming

for temperature, load and atmospherics to correct timing for

aberrations.



Aircraft fly at altitudes and in environments not suitable for

automobiles.  When the auto suffers from too much contaminate, it starts

fouling plugs and the driver pulls over to the side of the road - then

calls a tow truck. The Reid pressure values are different and hence

greater likelihood of detonation, fuel system icing or vapor lock.



Lead contamination from 100LL used at less than 50% concentrations to

MOGAS has a calculated need for maintenance.  I would not characterize

it as a risk. It is a known and ROTAX has factored it.  Ethanol is an

unknown/variable and Phase Shift is a real phenomena.  The difficulty

with aircraft is that the shelf life of 100LL is far greater than MOGAS.

MOGAS spoils. With the high volume at an auto pump versus a relatively

low volume at an airport near you, the risk from moisture is

geometrically greater.  For those pilots flying classic aircraft with

EAA or Peterson STCs, they know the FAA does not approve of any presence

of ethanol. Their STC by choice of ethanol becomes invalidated.  Regular

fuel testing is a requirement. 



Oregon has discounted the significance of those pilots and mandated

ethanol into the entire delivery system.  This year is going to show

those willing to wait the risks at running with ethanol.  Be patient, it

is a known.



John 

VP Legislative Affairs - Oregon Pilots Association (and blamed for the

passage of this poor legislation)

ROTAX certified technician



do not archive



--

Catz631(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 3:44 am Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline

Henry,

  Thanks for the excellent testing you did. You gave a lot of insight into the relationship of alcohol and water. Nothing beats a backyard test in my book!

                                      

                                                              Dick Maddux

                                                              Pensacola,Fl



Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.

  [quote][b]

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 4:53 am Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline

Cars now have sealed fuel systems..  That's why they have the warning on the

fuel cap to remove slowly...  Planes don't.  If you get old fuel or there is

a leak into your gas stations tank which allows a bit of water into the

underground storage facilities you can get a phase separation over a cold

night.  In a car , no problem, maybe a little walking.  In a plane...  keep

up on forced approaches.



As for vapour lock.  Aircraft engines tend to live at better than 75% power

for hours at a time.  Even in the mountains cars won't run at 75% power for

more than two or three minutes at a time.  The other factor is just how many

roads run for miles at better than 10,000 feet?  As you can see your

airplane engine lives in a completely different environment than your car. 



I've had a phase separation in a snowmobile...  believe me it won't burn.

To burn in an engine I believe the minimum is 150 proof, around 75% by

volume.



Certainly the 9xx series Rotax engines share oil with the PSRU and the Lead

is definitely not good for it.  The Rotax two strike engines have roller

bearings on the crank shaft and lead can plate out on to the roller bearings

and cause the main bearings to fail... Bad news!



Instead of rolling over and saying this is just something else we have to

live with we should be lobbying every which way we can for a clean supply of

non lead fuel for planes.  Twenty years or more ago that's what they did

with the introduction of 100LL for certified aircraft.



Hope this helps.



Noel 



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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 6:24 am Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline

Well laid out, well said!



It doesn't sound like you were in any way responsible for the legislation.



Increased lobbying is the only answer I can see.  In the short term make

fuels sold at airports, not accessible to road traffic and not applicable to

aircraft.  In the long term junk the whole idea of ethanol as an alternative

fuel.



What I can see is, after a few fatalities, states may outlaw the use of

MOGAS in any aircraft.  In other words get caught with MOGAS in your planes

tank after an accident and your insurance, life insurance and or drivers

license is cancelled.  To protect themselves I understand several gasoline

outlets already have pump signs up, "Not for aviation use." 



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 7:34 am Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline

The request in Oregon through the Department of Agriculture was a complete exemption of ethanol in Unleaded 92 Octane Mogas - Premium.  The oil lobby said 100% distribution of ethanol or no deal.  The 92 exemption was supported by auto collectors, STC aviators, classic boat owners, recreators and First Responders across the board.



Next year is a new legislature.



John 



--

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 7:36 am Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline

They wanted a dog to kick and every legislator that vote AYE wanted to

hide.  This was a bill that was introduced by the Governor in 2005 and

soundly defeated.  He snuck it through in the 2007 Bi-ennium and now it

is policy.



Lobby, lobby, lobby.



Traveling through Oregon in 2008, aviators should diligently monitor

fuel quality.  Stay Safe.



John



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