 |
Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Don G
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 156
Location: Central Illinois
|
 Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject: Just another idea...Vtwin firestar? |
 |
|
Donnie and Travis,
While we are talking about other ideas...
Now I was thinking.....I wonder How many more FireStar Kits them boys down in London could sell if they were to knock off several thousand dollars from its current price?????
Now while you are pondering on this foolishness I am not talking about you taking a cut in pay!..
About an hour ago I stopped in at Buckeye PPC in Argos, Ind, and I witnessed an honest 300 lbs of static thrust from their latest design...this is like the runner-up down at Sun-n-fun...
Dont get me wrong..I am not taking up those slow flying soft tops...
But I think a Firestar with an electric start...300lb thrust 4 stroke burnin about 2 gallons an hour at WOT, with several thousand hours between overhauls and hitting the market at 3 grand less (or more) than currently oughtta revive things down there during this .....well...lets say slow period.
trouble is the thrust line is probably to high to just slap one on and hit the starter...it would need a slight redesign of the cage/motor mount area to get the thrust line down to where it is with a rotax. So it will take a little work,, But the benefits would be tremendous I predict. Small investment in engineering....and knock off a ton of cost....seems like it oughtta pencil out.
and in case you were not listening...I said an honest 300 lbs...this is 582 thrust men...and it is not hearsay. I have been stopping in there quite a bit in the last year since they won the awards at OshKosh with the Honda powered machine, and this latest Generac powered machine is gonna be a winner. Did I mention he is planning on marketing the engine/redrive package ?...I am sure he would entertain OEM accounts.
The market is quickly going to be a 4 stroke market boys. These Engines are coming to us quickly, in fact several are here now..and I think the company that responds to the design changes needed to accommodate these engines will be in the forefront of the revival.
I have been hearing so many companies complaining that the Sport pilot rule killed the little plane market. I don't believe it..it was just a coincidence of timing...the price increases over the last few years have had to be a bigger factor. Few products in any market would have responded differently to these increases. And you manufacturers can attribute those increases to one single component.
The Kolb Wing design is your biggest asset.....an airframe that will accommodate these engines with a Kolb Wing just HAS to be a great potential seller!
PLEASE think hard about this.
I fact...print this and pass it upstairs.
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
RV9A |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Dwight
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
Posts: 12
Location: Illinois
|
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 7:50 pm Post subject: Re: Just another idea...Vtwin firestar? |
|
|
Sharon and Dick Starks Twinstar has been running a Big Twin conversion from Valley engineering http://www.culverprops.com/big-twin.php
for a year or so now.
From what I've heard it is a great combo with the Generac 990 modified by Valley eng and Valley's re-drive.
Valley is using this engine and re-drive on a lot of their planes now.
Dwight
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FS2Kolb(at)aol.com
Guest
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
neilsenrm(at)comcast.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 7:19 am Post subject: Just another idea...Vtwin firestar? |
|
|
I think this is a wonderfull idea. I watched that Buckeye fly at Sun N Fun with great intrest. I have no idea how heavy these engines are and that would be the bigest concern. The guys at Valley have designed a redrive that would have to be much smoother than the Buckeye. The Valley redrive was first used with that V twin before they modified it for use on VWs like mine.
The guys at Valley have expressed the desire to put this engine on a Firestar to me many times. I'm sure if someone would assure them that they would make a concerted effort and maybe write an article or something they might make them a good deal on a engine.
Still toasting (106+ degrees) here in Arizona till Thursday.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
[quote]-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Don G" <donghe(at)one-eleven.net>
[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don G"
Donnie and Travis,
While we are talking about other ideas...
Now I was thinking.....I wonder How many more FireStar Kits them boys down in
London could sell if they were to knock off several thousand dollars from its
current price?????
Now while you are pondering on this foolishness I am not talking about you
taking a cut in pay!..
About an hour ago I stopped in at Buckeye PPC in Argos, Ind, and I witnessed an
honest 300 lbs of static thrust from their latest design...this is like the
runner-up down at Sun-n-fun...
Dont get me wrong..I am not taking up those slow flying soft t ops...
But I think a Firestar with an electric start...300lb thrust 4 stroke burnin
about 2 gallons an hour at WOT, with several thousand hours between overhauls
and hitting the market at 3 grand less (or more) than currently oughtta revive
things down there during this .....well...lets say slow period.
trouble is the thrust line is probably to high to just slap one on and hit the
starter...it would need a slight redesign of the cage/motor mount area to get
the thrust line down to where it is with a rotax. So it will take a little
work,, But the benefits would be tremendous I predict. Small investment in
engineering....and knock off a ton of cost....seems like it oughtta pencil out.
and in case you were not listening...I said an honest 300 lbs...this is 582
thrust men...and it is not hearsay. I have been stopping in there quite a bit in
the last year since they won t he awa rds at OshKosh with the Honda powered
machine, and this latest Generac powered machine is gonna be a winner. Did I
mention he is planning on marketing the engine/redrive package ?...I am sure he
would entertain OEM accounts.
The market is quickly going to be a 4 stroke market boys. These Engines are
coming to us quickly, in fact several are here now..and I think the company that
responds to the design changes needed to accommodate these engines will be in
the forefront of the revival.
I have been hearing so many companies complaining that the Sport pilot rule
killed the little plane market. I don't believe it..it was just a coincidence of
timing...the price increases over the last few years have had to be a bigger
factor. Few products in any market would have responded differently to these
increases. And you manufacturers can attribute those increases to one ch &am [quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 8:18 am Post subject: Just another idea...Vtwin firestar? |
|
|
| Quote: | The Valley redrive was first used with that V twin before they modified it for use on VWs like mine.
|
| Quote: | The guys at Valley have expressed the desire to put this engine on a Firestar to me many times. I'm sure if>someone would assure them that they would make a concerted effort and maybe write an article or something>they might make them a good deal on a engine.
|
Rick,
As many of you may remember, I am planning on moving to Missouri soon (one week??). I may have my Cessna sold, as this was the biggest obstacle prior to me moving there. I am working on the sale right now.
Trade a Plane:
http://www.trade-a-plane.com/classified/search?atcode=A&collection=&searchtype=atcode&code=A&sid=a728987a47506f0de24b77e0f07f3415&year_from=1972&year_to=1972&min_price=45%2C000&max_price=45%2C000&min_totime=&max_totime=&min_engtime=&max_engtime=&state=UT&country=ALL&keyword1=&kwflag=AND&keyword2=&timelimit=0&tlvalue &browse=detail&maxads=100
But, the point is, my property in Missouri is about a 45 minute drive from Valley Engineering. I have FULL intentions on getting to know all the honchos at Valley, and will do my darndest to promote their engine installations on Kolbs.
Who knows, maybe they will give me a job, since I'm "between jobs" right now (by my choice, I took a year off). On second thought, rather than do that, I may cut into my airplane time, and try to find my wife a second job.
Mike Welch
MkIIICX
BTW, Dwight, minor point. The Valley Engineering engine/redrive is on Dick and Sharon's Twinstar, not Firestar. I'm not sure about which model of Twinstar, but I think it may be a MkII.
Do Not Archive
_________________________________________________________________
Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety.
http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_family_safety_052008
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Don G
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 156
Location: Central Illinois
|
| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: Just another idea...Vtwin firestar? |
|
|
Rick,
the weight of the Buckeye engine and redrive is 100 lbs...
The Generac engine they are using not near as modified as the one Gene and Larry were using on the legal Eagle, and the Backyard flyer as I saw it last., Now I am not sure what the "state of modification" of the one on this new plane they have now as all I have seen is the Utube video...but it looks like it flys really well...
On a personal note, I didnt like some of the mods they did on those first engines, other than the carb, which was OK by me. But I am certain the other mods they did basically to loose weight would be detrimental to the life of the engine.
As far as Smooth..again I dont know what the Smiths latest design is for sure, but Buckeyes is truly smooth as silk! I held my Hand on it the other day with no prop installed as we ran it up and it is perfectly smooth, so smooth in fact the vibration testing gear I brought along to check it with, just stayed in the truck..there was no need. compared to a Rotax...its a sewing machine..
One of the amazing things about Buckeyes package is, it is APPROVED by Generac, and they have been in close contact with the company in the development of this project as a direct OEM account. This is NOT a "rebel installation" as we call them in the biz.
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
RV9A |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
neilsenrm(at)comcast.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: Just another idea...Vtwin firestar? |
|
|
Don
I have never seen the Valley engine run or any details but it does use the same type of redrive as I use on my VW. I think you were snooker-ed a bit. Without the prop most any engine will be smooth. Seems like you were the one that told me the valley engines had the flywheel trimmed a bit. I agree that doesn't seem to be a good move but maybe they had major weight issues? I would think their engines could be had in any level of modification. I would also think they would sell just the redrive if you wanted.
I did like the carb heat system that the buckeye engine uses. I also checked the belt tension and it was VERY tight. You would know more about that being a issue than me but it concerned me. It did sound like the Buckeye engine package was being developed by a company other than Byckeye? I sure would like to hear how smooth the package is with a prop on it.
Both engine packages would seem to need a custom mount to keep the thrust line down low enough to be usable on a Firestar. Kolb was very willing to develop a engine mount from my specifications. Maybe someone could incurage Kolb to build a Genrec mount for their new Firestar.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
[quote]-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Don G" <donghe(at)one-eleven.net>
[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Don G"
Rick,
the weight of the Buckeye engine and redrive is 100 lbs...
The Generac engine they are using not near as modified as the one Gene and Larry
were using on the legal Eagle, and the Backyard flyer as I saw it last., Now I
am not sure what the "state of modification" of the one on this new plane they
have now as all I have seen is the Utube video...but it looks like it flys
really well...
On a personal note, I didnt like some of the mods they did on those first
engines, other than the carb, which was OK by me. But I am certain the other
mods they did basically to loose weight would be detrimental to the life of the > engine.
As far as Smooth..again I dont know what the Smiths latest design is for sure,
but Buckeyes is truly smooth as silk! I held my Hand on it the other day with no
prop installed as we ran it up and it is perfectly smooth, so smooth in fact the
vibration testing gear I brought along to check it with, just stayed in the
truck..there was no need. compared to a Rotax...its a sewing machine..
One of the amazing things about Buckeyes package is, it is APPROVED by Generac,
and they have been in close contact with the company in the development of this
project as a direct OEM account. This is NOT a "rebel installation" as we call
them in the biz.
--------
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
Read this topic online here: min. < [quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Don G
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 156
Location: Central Illinois
|
| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 6:03 am Post subject: Re: Just another idea...Vtwin firestar? |
|
|
Rick, Yes you are right, induced vibration from a propeller will make any engine seem to vibrate more than with the prop off...BUT...what I am talking about here is engine vibration, generally measured in the X, Y, and Z axis on the engine only. These are much higher frequency vibes and can be very detrimental to an airframe. You simply cannot determine the vibration level of the engine with a prop...or anything attached to the pto. This has been a concern of anyone using a industrial V-twin with a redrive on it...the engine vibration.
The progress of the development of any package like this must be first examined with nothing on the PTO/crank....then as you move on to attaching props and things, you discover which propmakers really know how to balance a prop...or a pulley or a shaft or a whatever the driveline consists of, and then address that separately. Then you deal with the "driveline induced vibrations"
I know Buckeye has a whole pile of props from different manufacturers, they have been testing, including 2, 3 and 4 blade designs, and he did express some remorse with a particular mfgs props, saying that the differences in 6 in a row of theirs were more than the differences in all the mfgs put together! Since this tidbit is second hand information, I wont be naming names.
I also know there are some really hard to track vibes that come from a prop/redrive/piston engine combination, as anyone who has fooled around with different combinations has experienced. This has to do with piston power pulses/ number of blades/ moments of inertia and prop length and reduction ratios. Some call it torsion resonance and I have heard it described a number of ways. Basically alot of fellas just lump all these things together, and call it engine vibration, but when you are trying to reduce these inertias, you must address them all separately.
To speak to you wish about wishing to see it with a prop on it...I have seen it in a with only a couple of different props...some of them were smooth as silk...and some of them were just terrible! I didnt get to see the 4 blade powerfin run on it, but their description was "so shockingly smooth we couldnt believe it."
BTW, for you guys thinking about the technicals of this...the redrive ratio is 2.25 to 1 and they are swinging a 2 blade 74 inch prop, among others..
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
RV9A |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 7:46 am Post subject: Just another idea...Vtwin firestar? |
|
|
Don
I agree 100% I just assumed that the engine package had been developed. Also
thought that the engine would have been balanced at the factory. Do they
fine tune the factory balance. Props also need to be balanced and redrives
sometimes need to be tuned for different props. My point is/was that with
out the prop you aren't seeing the interaction of the engine/redrive/prop.
The guy that was showing and flying the Buckeye at Sun N Fun talked about a
change in exhaust systems due to cracking. I assumed it was due to
vibrations but???? Sounds like it might be a smooth running package but?
Again this engine sounds like a potential option for a Firestar. At 2GPH the
fuel burn is super. It is hard to believe that the Genrac will perform as
well a Rotax 503 even with a redrive but with the thrust figures you are
reporting it sure would be interesting. The Buckeye at Sun N Fun was
swinging a two bladed wood 74? inch prop. One would need to configure the
installation of the engine to allow clearance for a prop that long to get
the thrust your talking about. Most of our members end up flying one of the
three bladed composite props for durability and would see less thrust with
the extra blade and shorter length.
I really like seeing computation for Rotax. Their prices have gotten way out
of hand . The HKS is widely talked about and a few of our members are flying
them but they are also very expensive.
Sure would like to see someone try it.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
---
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
Get Email Distribution Too!
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
