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Much foward stick on climbout
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Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:14 am Post subject: Re: Much foward stick on climbout

 	  Quote: 	
		  Once established the CG within limits and problem still exists it seems the trim tab would be a great addition. 	




Chris, if the CG turns out to not be the culprit I would first check all the rigging before adding a trim tab.  The first thing...after the CG...that I would suspect is the flaperon rigging.



A negative (up) setting on both flaperons at the same time could cause the airplane to pitch up.

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Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

chris(at)southernskies.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:41 am Post subject: Much foward stick on climbout

Did the weight and balance, found the CG to be at 14.97 inches empty and 15.29 inches loaded. That seems too far aft. A little computation showed that adding 6 lbs up front will bring everything 1 inch forward. The 2 blade wood prop only weighs 6 lbs so I was hoping to find a heavier (3 blade) prop that weighs a total of 12 lbs. Anybody have ideas on a "heavy" prop (GSC, Warp, Ivo?)

Chris Bowles

KF 3 N727PD

Rotax 582

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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:28 am Post subject: Much foward stick on climbout

You want to be careful installing a heavy prop.  Make sure it is inside the weights and moment of rotation allowed for your PSRU.



Maybe a small tool kit installed under the engine would be the cats *$$.



Noel



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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:46 am Post subject: Re: Much foward stick on climbout

 	  chris(at)southernskies.ne wrote: 	
		  Did the weight and balance, found the CG to be at 14.97 inches empty and 15.29 inches loaded. That seems too far aft. A little computation showed that adding 6 lbs up front will bring everything 1 inch forward. The 2 blade wood prop only weighs 6 lbs so I was hoping to find a heavier (3 blade) prop that weighs a total of 12 lbs. Anybody have ideas on a "heavy" prop (GSC, Warp, Ivo?)

Chris Bowles

KF 3 N727PD

Rotax 582 	




Chris, my spread sheet weight and balance program shows the model 3 aft CG limit to be 14.28 inches.  Does this match your information?  My spread sheet may be wrong on that.  The flight characteristics you describe in your first post are consistent with this however.  I think you should do some more investigating.



A kitfox built even close to the book should not have a CG problem.  Did you do the calculation for the loaded CG without the BRS?  I am just wondering if there is some more hidden weight in the tail somewhere.

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Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

gary-n-dorothy(at)tctwest
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:16 am Post subject: Much foward stick on climbout

Chris 

 I think you will find that a medium  ground adjustable 3 blade   Ivo is pretty close to 12 Lb,   with this prop however, you  should run a  "C"  or "E" reduction  unit,  probably  with a 3 to 1 ratio  and follow their install directions .  The  A  And  B  reduction boxes are just too light.

  

 Gary 4276M

 582 

 [quote]   ---

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chris(at)southernskies.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:07 am Post subject: Much foward stick on climbout

This Rotax 582 does have the C Box with 3:1.  I will look for the Ivo Prop or a 6 lb toolkit ! Great idea!

In the meantime, I strapped 6 lbs of steel under the engine mount and that brought everything into the limits. The W&B was done with the BRS installed. There have also been some repairs done to the tailsection from the previous groundloop, perhaps adding a little weight.



During yesterdays flight after the CG fix everything went fine with much less forward pressure needed however a brief period of aileron flutter caught my attention, unrelated to the CG as it has happened once before. The first time it was so brief that I thought it was just some turbulence that was messing with me but on yesterdays flight it lasted a little longer and made me nervous as this was on long final, straight and level at 55 knots in smooth air with no or little flaps deployed. Just started shaking the stick left to right- I looked at the flapperons and wing while it was happening and both were visibly moving up and down. Made some S turns and it stopped. The whole episode was short. I very closely inspected every piece of the linkage together with a local A&P after landing and we found a few places that allowed to be snugged up just a little but not anything large. Nothing was real floppy but the ailerons can be moved up and down a bit (maybe 1/2 inch measuring at the trailing edge)  before  the stick moves. There are a lot of joints so that may be normal.

Removed the linkage completely and checked the aileron nylon bushings- seemed o.k.too, not much axial play- but side to side yes.



Both ailerons have a few dings and a few areas of loose foam. The external counterweights are installed

on the far outboard side.

All the rib hangers have the thin metal plates installed but a couple of the hangers move a little side to side when wiggled and a little up and down together with the wing. 



Where the aileron rod passes through the turtledeck there is not much of a bearing surface. Just some nylon that doesn't provide much support in my opinion. 



Any ideas what else I should look at?



Thanks for any advice-

Chris Bowles

KF 3 Rotax 582



 	  Quote: 	
		  Chris 

I think you will find that a medium  ground adjustable 3 blade  Ivo is 

pretty close to 12 Lb,   with this prop however, you should run a  "C"  

or "E" reduction  unit,  probably with a 3 to 1 ratio  and follow their 

install directions .  The A  And  B  reduction boxes are just too light.



Gary 4276M

582

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mscotter

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 49
Location: Winston-Salem, NC

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:03 am Post subject: Much foward stick on climbout

Chris, I'm no expert but any play in those hangers mounted on the trailing edge would make me real nervous. I'd start there. Also, make sure the counterweights are not loose either. 



-Mark Scott, Elkton, Md

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T



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Mark Scott
Winston-Salem, NC

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