Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Adding a passenger to the Twinstar
Goto page 1, 2 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

cristalclear13

Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 363
Location: Southeast Georgia

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:38 am Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

Any words of advice for adding a passenger to your Kolb Twinstar for the first time (and what to expect)?  I was told to gradually add weight (50lbs at a time or so), but how to do that safely is another question.

_________________
Cristal Waters
Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Sept 2007 - sold Sept 2012
Private Pilot Aug 2008
ELSA Repairman for N193Y April 2008
Rotax 2 stroke maintenance April 2009

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:26 am Post subject: Re: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

I think Bob Bean strapped in some Sandbags...



 Can somebody in your area "donate" a few Kids in different sizes....



 .

.

.

 I 'm sure you would also want to treat it like a "First Flight"



What I mean is , you need to Go up.....approach stall before you land,

So you know the "NEW" approach speed.....

Don't use your old numbers for your "heavier" plane...



                      Gotta Fly...

                                      Mike & "Jaz" in MN



PS Even if you tried it with just 2 sandbags at first....That's about 60 lbs

 you'd be closer to knowing how it handles with the load...

 Then grab a fat kid....

jlsk1(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:51 am Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

Cristal, I have done this 2 times.Start with Bags of something, sand, grain, 

something clean too. I`d start with about  75 or100 lbs, 50 will be hardly 

noticeable.Take off after MAKING SURE that the strapped in weight CANNOT 

move.The last thing you want is the weight to shift duiring movement & lock 

up a flight control.Then go up as all have suggested & do the stalls to see 

what airspeed they occurred at, & write them down.Gradually build up to the 

weight you`re comfortable hauling.Say maybe 125, then 150, & so on. Know how 

it will handle before you take Live passengers!.   Jim

---

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:34 am Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

Cristal



Good advise. One more thing to take into consideration is that sand or what 

ever you strap down (if you put it in the seat) will not give you the 

forward CG loading that a person would give you. It's surprising how heavy 

legs are.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:43 am Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

how to do that safely is another question.>>



No problem Cristal,



get a large plastic tank.tie it firmly in the passenger seat. Use the 

seatbelts plus as many bungee`s as you need to fix it  IMMOVABLY. You do not 

want it falling onto the stick when you put your nose down on the approach

Put some water in the tank in gradually increasing amounts. You can fill it 

in situ with a hose which will save you having to lug a heavy tank around. 

10 gallons is a heavy load to lift and manouvre into place and you will need 

more than that

 A plastic tank is also clean and will not mess up the upholstery. Sand is 

dirty and awkward. Don`t use it.



Good luck



Pat.

cristalclear13

Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 363
Location: Southeast Georgia

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:59 am Post subject: Re: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

My passenger seat is very small...smaller than the Mark III.  If I use a container filled with water it would have to be a very tall, skinny container (10lbs of water is only 80 lbs) and I can't picture being able to keep 150 lbs of bags of sand in that tiny seat without it shifting somewhere where I wouldn't want it to go even if I strap it in good.  If I put the sand in a container, again it would have to be a very tall, skinny container and I don't know how much weight that would add (anyone know how much weight is in a gallon of sand?).



Someone else suggested to me to gradually add weights (like the kind you have on the end of a dumbbell) in a bag and strap that down, but someone else thought it would be dangerous...that it couldn't be secured properly.



Is there more danger in trying to add weight like this (and as mentioned the possibility of it shifting) or simply adding a real person (not a fat kid , but a fellow experienced pilot)?



Are there any other differences to be aware of besides a longer takeoff (we have a 6000ft runway here which should be way more than enough since I barely use any of it when I'm by myself) and a faster approach on landing (adding the 10-15mph to the new stall speed)? assuming calm air or a good steady headwind



I did fly Jim's Mark III with him in it.  But perhaps my Mark II would be much different?

_________________
Cristal Waters
Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Sept 2007 - sold Sept 2012
Private Pilot Aug 2008
ELSA Repairman for N193Y April 2008
Rotax 2 stroke maintenance April 2009

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:19 pm Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

At 12:59 PM 6/22/08 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  




	


Cristal,  



You can purchase sand in 25 pound plastic bags.  Does not cost very much and 

it is easy to load/unload and fairly clean and easy to secure in the seat.  

If you are worried about it shifting, purchase some light ratchet strap type 

mechanisms that are used to hold odd shaped loads in pickups etc.  They are 

very inexpensive and can be used for all sorts of things.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:37 pm Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

> My passenger seat is very small...smaller than the Mark III.  >

 	  Quote: 	
		   --------

 Cristal Waters


	




Cristal:



Been a long time since I flew my first passenger in a MKIII.  I don't recall 

hauling sand or water prior to putting a RLP (real live person) in the 

passenger seat.



I think it is absolutely normal for a new pilot to want to fly a passenger 

as soon as they get their credentials to do so.  We want to share the love 

of our experiences in the air and show folks we can really fly an airplane, 

all by ourselves.



I was that way.



As a much older, more experienced Kolb pilot, who has hauled many, many 

passengers, over the years, I think I have a little different attitude now 

about getting an innocent passenger up in my little Kolb as quickly as 

possible after getting licensed.  I think if I had to do it over again, I 

would build some good flight time, gain a lot of experience, and prepare 

myself to make that first passenger carrying flight and all those that 

follow as safe as possible, insuring I get myself and my passenger home 

safely.



When you are ready to take up your first passenger, you should have more 

than enough runway, 6,000 feet, to be able to feel out your airplane which 

will change quite a bit after putting a passenger in the other seat.  In the 

MKIII there is a need for much more nose up trim than when flying solo.  In 

addition, the aircraft will not respond as quickly and the increased stall 

speed will be the primary differences in flying solo and dual.  I have never 

flown a MKII, so can not help you in that respect.



Personally, I would not want anything in the passenger seat, unless it was a 

passenger, especially not water and sand.



The last thing I would ever want to do is injure or kill a passenger (or 

myself).



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

ez(at)embarqmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:24 pm Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

On Jun 22, 2008, at 3:59 PM, cristalclear13 wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Are there any other differences to be aware of besides a longer  

 takeoff (we have a 6000ft runway here which should be way more than  

 enough since I barely use any of it when I'm by myself) and a faster  

 approach on landing (adding the 10-15mph to the new stall speed)?  

 assuming still air


	




Cristal,



I believe John Hauck has given you the best advise yet.



Your comment above shows a good grasp of the requirements for hauling  

extra weight.  But please be aware that the Mark II was found to have  

marginal elevator authority  for two normal sized adults compared with  

the Mark III which was give significantly larger tail feathers.



With two aboard in a Mark II it is very important for you to discover  

"at altitude"  your minimum safe speed that still provides adequate  

nose up elevator authority.



I consider the Mark II a 1.75 place airplane, not a 2 place airplane.   

My opinion only.



With proper awareness it can be done safely, but please be careful.



Gene

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:53 pm Post subject: Re: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

The biggest change I feel in my MK III with a passenger is the elevator authority.  I heaviest passenger I have taken up is 210 pounds, and thats my limit.  With the 912-S, the plane has more than enough power to fly a heavier load, but I feel that I would not have enough up elevator authority with a heavier passenger.   John H's advice about having a very long runway is good, if you want to fly someone, have them drive to an airport with a long runway and fly them from there until you see how your plane will perform.   Also keep your speed up on approach, which is good technique weather alone or with someone.  Also if you have a smaller engine, be ready for and do a much shallower climb, you will be surprised how much the extra weight slows down your climb.  You will see your climb angle more like a heavy loaded Cessna rather than the normal steep climb of an ultralight.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

cristalclear13

Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 363
Location: Southeast Georgia

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

Thanks for everyone's advice and input.  I believe that even if I get my license next month I'll wait until much cooler weather before even thinking about adding another person (and in south Georgia sometimes it's very late in the year before it really cools down).  That will also give me more time to fly it on my own.  Perhaps I'll stick to renting the Cessna (for a while) if someone wants to go up with me.

_________________
Cristal Waters
Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Sept 2007 - sold Sept 2012
Private Pilot Aug 2008
ELSA Repairman for N193Y April 2008
Rotax 2 stroke maintenance April 2009

aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

Would it not be a lot simpler to just do a checkflight with your instructor 

. That way you get the fell of the plane with a whole lot of experiance 

sitting beside you. When I first flew the MK111 ,I did so with a instructor 

and all he got me to do was some basic steep turns ,figger 8s, stalls, power 

on ,power off and about 3 take offs / landings then away I went. I completed 

about 5 hours solo before the first passanger flight.I had about 150hrs 

ultralight time before that and it was all tail dragger stuff.  I have not 

flown a Twinstar and do not want to put you wrong but I would be looking to 

put some experiance in the passanger seat for that first flight if I had any 

concerns at all



Tony

MK111

400 hrs

---

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

Yeah...., Then you'll have PLENTY of time to line up a FAT KID...

.

.

.

He he he

.

.

.

Gotta Fly...

Mike & "Jaz" in MN , FSII /N381PM

.

.

.

 	  cristalclear13 wrote: 	
		   Perhaps I'll stick to renting the Cessna (for a while) if someone wants to go up with me.

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:53 am Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

(anyone know how much weight is in a cubic foot of sand?).>>



Hi Cristal,

Your friendly local building materials supplier will probably have sand in 

clean prepacked plastic bags, sold by weight.. Beware as plastic bags are 

slippery and will be difficult to secure.



<<smply adding a fellow experienced pilot)?>>  That is the best option, but 

make it an experience ultrlight pilot, preferably Kolb



<<e there any other differences to be aware of besides a longer takeoff (we 

have a 6000ft runway here which should be way more than enough since I 

barely use any of it when I'm by myself) and a faster approach on landing 

(adding the 10-15mph to the new stall speed)? assuming still air>>



Sounds about right. You could land a B-17 on 6000 feet



 I am in a similar position to you with only a few hours, and landings in an 

Xtra.  I have a committment to fly someone in the village as he bought a 

flight in an ultralight which I put up for sale in an `Auction of Promises` 

fund raiser around last Christmas. He paid around $120 for the flight but I 

am not going to fly him until I feel a bit happier at the prospect. It will 

be a late evening , non thermic flight with a gentle cruise around for an 

hour and hopefully an equally gentle landing. I know that the guys wife is 

having conniptions at the thought of her beloved husband being up in the sky 

in `that flying motorbike`.



Cheers



Pat

ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:47 am Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

Cristal

 if you want a body  for your experimenting  Flight  purposes I am just what you need  185 lbs ,I have time in  three different models of Kolbs and a bunch of other aircraft and willing do  about anything except for Jumping out of a perfectly Good flying Kolb and Im  more fun than a cold bag of dead sand and my wife wont  mind.

  

 Ellery in Maine

 do not archive

  

  In a message dated 6/23/2008 5:54:42 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Kolb-List message posted by: "pj.ladd"    <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>



(anyone know how much weight is in a    cubic foot of sand?).>>



Hi Cristal,

Your friendly local    building materials supplier will probably have sand in 

clean prepacked    plastic bags, sold by weight.. Beware as plastic bags are 

slippery and    will be difficult to secure.



<<smply adding a fellow experienced    pilot)?>>  That is the best option, but 

make it an experience    ultrlight pilot, preferably Kolb



<<e there any other differences    to be aware of besides a longer takeoff (we 

have a 6000ft runway here    which should be way more than enough since I 

barely use any of it when I'm    by myself) and a faster approach on landing 

(adding the 10-15mph to the    new stall speed)? assuming still air>>



Sounds about right. You    could land a B-17 on 6000 feet



I am in a similar position to you with    only a few hours, and landings in an 

Xtra.  I have a committment to    fly someone in the village as he bought a 

flight in an ultralight which I    put up for sale in an `Auction of Promises` 

fund raiser around last    Christmas. He paid around $120 for the flight but I 

am not going to fly    him until I feel a bit happier at the prospect. It will 

be a late evening    , non thermic flight with a gentle cruise around for an 

hour and hopefully    an equally gentle landing. I know that the guys wife is 

having conniptions    at the thought of her beloved husband being up in the sky 

in `that flying    es  y       -->                 - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  nbsp;               - List Contribution Web Site  ;                             =========================



	




Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.

  [quote][b]

grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:40 am Post subject: Re: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

Crystal,



Did you have any dual instruction in your twinstar? If you did not, how did you solo it with out any instruction in it?



We have plans for me to solo the next time I go fly. Probably in 2 weeks. I have a concern now. I have a Mark III with a 503. My instructor and I have been using my plane for training. He test flew the plane for me prior to the lessons. Now what should I expect flying the plane solo? The W/B says the pilot weight should be a minimum of 195#. I weight 150#. So I need at least 45# ballast to fly solo. So with the proper ballast the  plane will be 120# lighter with out my instructor  in it.

olendorf

Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 140
Location: Schenectady, NY USA

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:00 am Post subject: Re: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

I'm not recommending any option but if it was me I would prefer the water barrel.  I'd have a valve on it so I could let the water out if I wound up in an unstable or dangerous condition due to the extra weight.

_________________
Scott Olendorf
Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop
Schenectady, NY
http://sites.google.com/site/kolbfirestar/

gaman(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:40 am Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

Cristal,

 One addition to the answers on passengers.The Mark has a high thrust line,and when you add weight and full power, be prepared for the tail to come up and the nose to push over immediately.Bring the trim adjustment  about halfway up for passengers near 150# and keep the stick back firmly until the mains lift,then slowly reduce back pressure to maintain the climb speed and rate you need.Even the ladies will give you accurate answers when you ask about weight,a fact that surprised me at first!It won't take long before you know how much trim to add for their weight.The mark lands easier but faster when it's heavier.

                                                      Enjoy your Kolb,G Aman MK-3C 2200 Jabiru 320hrs

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:45 am Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

At 12:59 PM 6/22/08 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  




	


Cristal,  



You can purchase sand in 25 pound plastic bags.  Does not cost very much and 

it is easy to load/unload and fairly clean and easy to secure in the seat.  

If you are worried about it shifting, purchase some light ratchet strap type 

mechanisms that are used to hold odd shaped loads in pickups etc.  They are 

very inexpensive and can be used for all sorts of things.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

..............................



Cristal,



I failed to mention you do not have to put a full persons weight in the seat 

on the first flight.  I am a great believer in taking incremental small 

steps as it prevents unwarranted surprises.  Start out with 25 pounds in the 

seat, and add another on each succeeding flight.  This will let you fly out 

of your normal strip and let you know if you should move to a longer strip 

for flying a passenger.  You end up finding out what you want to know, but 

at lower risk, and more flights before you take up your first passenger.  



At each weight increase climb to altitude and check out your stall speed.  

If you are running out of back stick to lift the nose, you know what the 

maximum weight is that you can safely fly in the passenger seat.



Fly safe.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:59 pm Post subject: Adding a passenger to the Twinstar

I used 40 lb salt bags.  -two at first, then three which was more  

than my first passenger.

I strapped them in well, positioned to roughly reproduce a passenger.

I recommend the method as it gives you the assurance of no surprises.

The bags were "free" because I have a water softener.

BB

MkIII, suzuki

Scottsville,NY

On 23, Jun 2008, at 1:44 PM, Jack B. Hart wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>

 At 12:59 PM 6/22/08 -0700, you wrote:

> 

> <cristalclearwaters(at)juno.com>

>

 Cristal,

 You can purchase sand in 25 pound plastic bags.  Does not cost very  

 much and

 it is easy to load/unload and fairly clean and easy to secure in  

 the seat.

 If you are worried about it shifting, purchase some light ratchet  

 strap type

 mechanisms that are used to hold odd shaped loads in pickups etc.   

 They are

 very inexpensive and can be used for all sorts of things.

 Jack B. Hart FF004

 Winchester, IN

 ...............................

 Cristal,

 I failed to mention you do not have to put a full persons weight in  

 the seat

 on the first flight.  I am a great believer in taking incremental  

 small

 steps as it prevents unwarranted surprises.  Start out with 25  

 pounds in the

 seat, and add another on each succeeding flight.  This will let you  

 fly out

 of your normal strip and let you know if you should move to a  

 longer strip

 for flying a passenger.  You end up finding out what you want to  

 know, but

 at lower risk, and more flights before you take up your first  

 passenger.

 At each weight increase climb to altitude and check out your stall  

 speed.

 If you are running out of back stick to lift the nose, you know  

 what the

 maximum weight is that you can safely fly in the passenger seat.

 Fly safe.

 Jack B. Hart FF004

 Winchester, IN

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum