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Performance stats for a Model II
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matronics(at)bob.brennan.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:53 am    Post subject: Performance stats for a Model II Reply with quote
Hi all - I have a general question about the published performance stats for my Model II, they don't seem to be realistic.

Specifically - the takeoff distance is listed as 75ft, landing roll as 100ft, both "solo". I've done some pretty quick off-the-grounders with a good headwind and no fuel to speak of, but 75ft?(!) Is this possibly an interpolated number for the aircraft at "empty" weight with no pilot or fuel? Obviously performance specs differ for every pilot/plane combination but I thought specs were for a typical 170(?)lb pilot at 0 MSL on a perfect day. I'm not that far off 170lb (well, not TOO far that a gallon or 2 of gas wouldn't make up for...)

Climb-out is listed as 1600fpm. In which parallel universe? I have achieved 900fpm sustained on a good day, alone, light fuel, and having recently lightened my own load (I call it "dumping ballast").

I have tested Vne, stall speeds in various configurations, best angle and best rate of climb, etc but not MTOW or max Gs, and have no intention of doing so, but with takeoff/landing distances and rate-of-climb seemingly so far off I have to wonder about the other stats.

Yes - the airplane is configured as stated in the performance data column and the engine only had 80 hours since a complete overhaul so I don't think age was a factor. The prop is a ground-adjustable type and was tested and re-set early in flight testing although I don't know if the setting is for optimal performance, that's the only thing I can think of.

Thanks in advance,

Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2 Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:03 am    Post subject: Performance stats for a Model II Reply with quote
BTW I have read and understand everything in the document at http://download.aopa.org/epilot/2008/8083-25-chap9.pdf which covers how these stats are generated and how to achieve them.

I am just questioning the 75ft takeoff, 100ft landing, and mostly the 1600fpm climb numbers as something I would have to be *really* lucky or **really** proficient to achieve, and on a normal day are many orders of magnitude different.

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
Sent: 01 July 2008 9:50 am
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Performance stats for a Model II

Hi all - I have a general question about the published performance stats for my Model II, they don't seem to be realistic.

Specifically - the takeoff distance is listed as 75ft, landing roll as 100ft, both "solo". I've done some pretty quick off-the-grounders with a good headwind and no fuel to speak of, but 75ft?(!) Is this possibly an interpolated number for the aircraft at "empty" weight with no pilot or fuel? Obviously performance specs differ for every pilot/plane combination but I thought specs were for a typical 170(?)lb pilot at 0 MSL on a perfect day. I'm not that far off 170lb (well, not TOO far that a gallon or 2 of gas wouldn't make up for...)

Climb-out is listed as 1600fpm. In which parallel universe? I have achieved 900fpm sustained on a good day, alone, light fuel, and having recently lightened my own load (I call it "dumping ballast").

I have tested Vne, stall speeds in various configurations, best angle and best rate of climb, etc but not MTOW or max Gs, and have no intention of doing so, but with takeoff/landing distances and rate-of-climb seemingly so far off I have to wonder about the other stats.

Yes - the airplane is configured as stated in the performance data column and the engine only had 80 hours since a complete overhaul so I don't think age was a factor. The prop is a ground-adjustable type and was tested and re-set early in flight testing although I don't know if the setting is for optimal performance, that's the only thing I can think of.

Thanks in advance,

Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2 Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa

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dave



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:10 am    Post subject: Re: Performance stats for a Model II Reply with quote
Bob,

I have a Kitfox IV............. here are the videos for hands on no BS proof of what the Kitfox is capable of .. http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer

I do see 1200 FPM solo . and 100 foot take offs and cruise wioth 21" tires 90 to 92 MPH TAS I have read others here with the same plane taking 500 to 700 feet to take off. But I am the only one showing first hand it actually happening.
Dave

PS that Kitfox has 480 hours on this engine in last 24 months and never been apart yet. LAst I heard was that they fly apart at 100 hours ?

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msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:12 am    Post subject: Performance stats for a Model II Reply with quote
Bob: In my experience, the 75-100 foot TO & landing are attainable but not everyday. Climb at 1600 ft/min? . . . no way. 1200 is the best I've seen, solo, no breakfast and very low density altitude.

I did test MTOW and so should you, IMHO. The airplane feels alot different near the ground when she's loaded up.

Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1

--- On Tue, 7/1/08, Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name> wrote:
Quote:
From: Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>
Subject: Performance stats for a Model II
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 9:50 AM

Hi all - I have a general question about the published performance stats for my Model II, they don't seem to be realistic.

Specifically - the takeoff distance is listed as 75ft, landing roll as 100ft, both "solo". I've done some pretty quick off-the-grounders with a good headwind and no fuel to speak of, but 75ft?(!) Is this possibly an interpolated number for the aircraft at "empty" weight with no pilot or fuel? Obviously performance specs differ for every pilot/plane combination but I thought specs were for a typical 170(?)lb pilot at 0 MSL on a perfect day. I'm not that far off 170lb (well, not TOO far that a gallon or 2 of gas wouldn't make up for...)

Climb-out is listed as 1600fpm. In which parallel universe? I have achieved 900fpm sustained on a good day, alone, light fuel, and having recently lightened my own load (I call it "dumping ballast").

I have tested Vne, stall speeds in various configurations, best angle and best rate of climb, etc but not MTOW or max Gs, and have no intention of doing so, but with takeoff/landing distances and rate-of-climb seemingly so far off I have to wonder about the other stats.

Yes - the airplane is configured as stated in the performance data column and the engine only had 80 hours since a complete overhaul so I don't think age was a factor. The prop is a ground-adjustable type and was tested and re-set early in flight testing although I don't know if the setting is for optimal performance, that's the only thing I can think of.

Thanks in advance,

Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2 Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa

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matronics(at)bob.brennan.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:59 am    Post subject: Performance stats for a Model II Reply with quote
Fantastic link Dave, thanks! I like the one who took off on the *width* of
the airstrip.

Bob Brennan
UK 1991 Model 2 Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa

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clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:34 am    Post subject: Performance stats for a Model II Reply with quote
I don't know where you are getting your information.  My Kitfox Pilot's Guide says that a Model II 582 powered aircraft has a take off distance of 250 feet C landing ground roll of 250 feet and climb rate of 900 feet / minute.
 
Clint

From: matronics(at)bob.brennan.name
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Performance stats for a Model II
Date: Tue C 1 Jul 2008 09:50:25 -0400
Hi all - I have a general question about the published performance stats for my Model II C they don't seem to be realistic.
 
Specifically - the takeoff distance is listed as 75ft C landing roll as 100ft C both "solo". I've done some pretty quick off-the-grounders with a good headwind and no fuel to speak of C but 75ft?(!) Is this possibly an interpolated number for the aircraft at "empty" weight with no pilot or fuel? Obviously performance specs differ for every pilot/plane combination but I thought specs were for a typical 170(?)lb pilot at 0 MSL on a perfect day. I'm not that far off 170lb (well C not TOO far that a gallon or 2 of gas wouldn't make up for...)
 
Climb-out is listed as 1600fpm. In which parallel universe? I have achieved 900fpm sustained on a good day C alone C light fuel C and having recently lightened my own load (I call it "dumping ballast").
 
I have tested Vne C stall speeds in various configurations C best angle and best rate of climb C etc but not MTOW or max Gs C and have no intention of doing so C but with takeoff/landing distances and rate-of-climb seemingly so far off I have to wonder about the other stats.
 
Yes - the airplane is configured as stated in the performance data column and the engine only had 80 hours since a complete overhaul so I don't think age was a factor. The prop is a ground-adjustable type and was tested and re-set early in flight testing although I don't know if the setting is for optimal performance C that's the only thing I can think of.
 
Thanks in advance C
 
Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2 Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:22 pm    Post subject: Performance stats for a Model II Reply with quote
Those numbers certainly sound more realistic Clint. I got the numbers from the "Kitfox Owners Manual Model II" that came with the logbooks, and I assume came with the original kit from Denney. However the title on the Performance page says "Performance KITFOX Model III" and I am reading under the "Rotax 582LC, solo" column. I always thought the "III" was a typo since all the other data seems to match, and I have always been led to believe I have a Model II.

So I guess my question changes to - is 75ft takeoff and 100ft landing and 1600fpm climb out valid for a Model III? Does anyone have access to Model II performance pages that they can scan for me please? And what are the major recognisable differences between a Model II and III?

Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2(?!) Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clint Bazzill
Sent: 01 July 2008 3:30 pm
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Performance stats for a Model II

I don't know where you are getting your information. My Kitfox Pilot's Guide says that a Model II 582 powered aircraft has a take off distance of 250 feet, landing ground roll of 250 feet and climb rate of 900 feet / minute.

Clint

From: matronics(at)bob.brennan.name
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Performance stats for a Model II
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 09:50:25 -0400
Hi all - I have a general question about the published performance stats for my Model II, they don't seem to be realistic.

Specifically - the takeoff distance is listed as 75ft, landing roll as 100ft, both "solo". I've done some pretty quick off-the-grounders with a good headwind and no fuel to speak of, but 75ft?(!) Is this possibly an interpolated number for the aircraft at "empty" weight with no pilot or fuel? Obviously performance specs differ for every pilot/plane combination but I thought specs were for a typical 170(?)lb pilot at 0 MSL on a perfect day. I'm not that far off 170lb (well, not TOO far that a gallon or 2 of gas wouldn't make up for...)

Climb-out is listed as 1600fpm. In which parallel universe? I have achieved 900fpm sustained on a good day, alone, light fuel, and having recently lightened my own load (I call it "dumping ballast").

I have tested Vne, stall speeds in various configurations, best angle and best rate of climb, etc but not MTOW or max Gs, and have no intention of doing so, but with takeoff/landing distances and rate-of-climb seemingly so far off I have to wonder about the other stats.

Yes - the airplane is configured as stated in the performance data column and the engine only had 80 hours since a complete overhaul so I don't think age was a factor. The prop is a ground-adjustable type and was tested and re-set early in flight testing although I don't know if the setting is for optimal performance, that's the only thing I can think of.

Thanks in advance,

Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2 Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa

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msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:25 pm    Post subject: Performance stats for a Model II Reply with quote
Can't imagine the mods made to the 3 to increase MTOW to 1050 could possibly make much difference in the relative performance numbers. As I recall, it was mostly beefing up of the spar carry-trough tubes. Correct me if I'm wrong listers.

Clint's numbers are real-world. What's the kit s/n on your 2 Bob?

Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1

--- On Tue, 7/1/08, Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name> wrote:
Quote:
From: Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>
Subject: RE: Performance stats for a Model II
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 4:19 PM

#yiv2028182423 .hmmessage P { PADDING-RIGHT:0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;MARGIN:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;} #yiv2028182423 { FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma;} Those numbers certainly sound more realistic Clint. I got the numbers from the "Kitfox Owners Manual Model II" that came with the logbooks, and I assume came with the original kit from Denney. However the title on the Performance page says "Performance KITFOX Model III" and I am reading under the "Rotax 582LC, solo" column. I always thought the "III" was a typo since all the other data seems to match, and I have always been led to believe I have a Model II.

So I guess my question changes to - is 75ft takeoff and 100ft landing and 1600fpm climb out valid for a Model III? Does anyone have access to Model II performance pages that they can scan for me please? And what are the major recognisable differences between a Model II and III?

Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2(?!) Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clint Bazzill
Sent: 01 July 2008 3:30 pm
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Performance stats for a Model II

I don't know where you are getting your information. My Kitfox Pilot's Guide says that a Model II 582 powered aircraft has a take off distance of 250 feet, landing ground roll of 250 feet and climb rate of 900 feet / minute.

Clint

From: matronics(at)bob.brennan.name
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Performance stats for a Model II
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 09:50:25 -0400
Hi all - I have a general question about the published performance stats for my Model II, they don't seem to be realistic.

Specifically - the takeoff distance is listed as 75ft, landing roll as 100ft, both "solo". I've done some pretty quick off-the-grounders with a good headwind and no fuel to speak of, but 75ft?(!) Is this possibly an interpolated number for the aircraft at "empty" weight with no pilot or fuel? Obviously performance specs differ for every pilot/plane combination but I thought specs were for a typical 170(?)lb pilot at 0 MSL on a perfect day. I'm not that far off 170lb (well, not TOO far that a gallon or 2 of gas wouldn't make up for...)

Climb-out is listed as 1600fpm. In which parallel universe? I have achieved 900fpm sustained on a good day, alone, light fuel, and having recently lightened my own load (I call it "dumping ballast").

I have tested Vne, stall speeds in various configurations, best angle and best rate of climb, etc but not MTOW or max Gs, and have no intention of doing so, but with takeoff/landing distances and rate-of-climb seemingly so far off I have to wonder about the other stats.

Yes - the airplane is configured as stated in the performance data column and the engine only had 80 hours since a complete overhaul so I don't think age was a factor. The prop is a ground-adjustable type and was tested and re-set early in flight testing although I don't know if the setting is for optimal performance, that's the only thing I can think of.

Thanks in advance,

Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2 Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa

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dave



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:35 am    Post subject: Re: Performance stats for a Model II Reply with quote
Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't know where you are getting your information.? My Kitfox Pilot's Guide says that a Model II 582 powered aircraft has a take off distance of 250 feet C landing ground roll of 250 feet and climb rate of 900 feet / minute.
?
Clint


Guys you have to remember that performance will always be given to the lightest planes. The Model 2 book will show 1600 fpm (at) a gross of 650 lbs if you look.and 1200 fpm at 1050 gross.
Take off run is 75 feet solo (at) 650 again and 200 feet at 1050 gross.
Her is link right here http://cfisher.com/kitfox/kitfox2poh.pdf Funny thing is I forgot I had that manual online until i did a google search http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGIH_enCA221CA221&q=kitfox+manual And it pointed me to my own site TOO FUNNY ............

So remember compare apples to apples and not to oranges. The early Avids under 400 empty use to climb over 2000 fpm . weight is your enemy.

For what it's worth I do find the model 2 numbers a little stretched....... fuel flow is low cruise is high and stall speeds listed are abit low . But hte model 2 has the undercamber wing and if built light it will give better numbers. A good rule of thumb is every pound that you go over 400 pound empty weight you will lose 3 to 4 FPM climb......... so take your 600 lb empty Kitfox and realize that you have a penalty of about 600 to 800 fpm loss from extra weight already before you even get into the plane.
BY the way -- it is on Page 5 here http://cfisher.com/kitfox/kitfox2poh.pdf

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Dave

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matronics(at)bob.brennan.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:08 am    Post subject: Performance stats for a Model II Reply with quote
Hi Marco - where do I find the serial number? My plane was finished in 1991 but I believe was worked on for several years, so may be a mixture of II and III?

I don't think I can do a takeoff in 75ft but less than 250ft would be easy, as would a slightly more than 100ft roll-out with a little precision and practice. The previous owner bragged of being able to do a "vertical" landing given enough headwind, and it's not too difficult to achieve 0mph groundspeed at altitude with full flaps, nose high, and power.

I also don't think 1600fpm sustained is possible in my Kitfox but 1000 is typical and I would guess I could push that to 1200 on a good day and no breakfast.

I thought that Model II to III was a beefing up for more MTOW as Marco said plus a larger tail assembly to correct the loss of control authority at low speeds, hardly anything that would increase performance stats as published.

The 2 pages from my "Kitfox Owners Manual Model II" are the same as http://cfisher.com/kitfox/kitfox2poh.pdf except that mine say "Model III" at the top, which is obviously wrong.

Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2(?) Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa



From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes
Sent: 01 July 2008 8:23 pm
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Performance stats for a Model II


Can't imagine the mods made to the 3 to increase MTOW to 1050 could possibly make much difference in the relative performance numbers. As I recall, it was mostly beefing up of the spar carry-trough tubes. Correct me if I'm wrong listers.

Clint's numbers are real-world. What's the kit s/n on your 2 Bob?

Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1

--- On Tue, 7/1/08, Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name> wrote:
Quote:
From: Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>
Subject: RE: Performance stats for a Model II
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 4:19 PM

#yiv2028182423 .hmmessage P { PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px } #yiv2028182423 { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma } Those numbers certainly sound more realistic Clint. I got the numbers from the "Kitfox Owners Manual Model II" that came with the logbooks, and I assume came with the original kit from Denney. However the title on the Performance page says "Performance KITFOX Model III" and I am reading under the "Rotax 582LC, solo" column. I always thought the "III" was a typo since all the other data seems to match, and I have always been led to believe I have a Model II.

So I guess my question changes to - is 75ft takeoff and 100ft landing and 1600fpm climb out valid for a Model III? Does anyone have access to Model II performance pages that they can scan for me please? And what are the major recognisable differences between a Model II and III?

Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2(?!) Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clint Bazzill
Sent: 01 July 2008 3:30 pm
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Performance stats for a Model II

I don't know where you are getting your information. My Kitfox Pilot's Guide says that a Model II 582 powered aircraft has a take off distance of 250 feet, landing ground roll of 250 feet and climb rate of 900 feet / minute.

Clint

From: matronics(at)bob.brennan.name
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Performance stats for a Model II
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 09:50:25 -0400
Hi all - I have a general question about the published performance stats for my Model II, they don't seem to be realistic.

Specifically - the takeoff distance is listed as 75ft, landing roll as 100ft, both "solo". I've done some pretty quick off-the-grounders with a good headwind and no fuel to speak of, but 75ft?(!) Is this possibly an interpolated number for the aircraft at "empty" weight with no pilot or fuel? Obviously performance specs differ for every pilot/plane combination but I thought specs were for a typical 170(?)lb pilot at 0 MSL on a perfect day. I'm not that far off 170lb (well, not TOO far that a gallon or 2 of gas wouldn't make up for...)

Climb-out is listed as 1600fpm. In which parallel universe? I have achieved 900fpm sustained on a good day, alone, light fuel, and having recently lightened my own load (I call it "dumping ballast").

I have tested Vne, stall speeds in various configurations, best angle and best rate of climb, etc but not MTOW or max Gs, and have no intention of doing so, but with takeoff/landing distances and rate-of-climb seemingly so far off I have to wonder about the other stats.

Yes - the airplane is configured as stated in the performance data column and the engine only had 80 hours since a complete overhaul so I don't think age was a factor. The prop is a ground-adjustable type and was tested and re-set early in flight testing although I don't know if the setting is for optimal performance, that's the only thing I can think of.

Thanks in advance,

Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2 Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:24 am    Post subject: Performance stats for a Model II Reply with quote
Your document Dave is exactly the same as my printed document except that
the title on the top of my pages says "Model III" and in mine the Gross
Weight says 1050 while yours says 950. Note that yours also says "Model III"
for gross weight.

Should we assume that the people at Denney at the time were not too careful
with their document control? I also assume my Gross Weight stat should read
"Model II 950 lbs"?

I forgot to note the cambered wing undersides of my Model II vs the Model
III which I believe has flat undersides, and a correspondingly faster
cruise(?)

Does anyone have a complete, and accurate, stats listing for the Model III
online?

Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2(?) Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa

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dave



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:13 am    Post subject: Re: Performance stats for a Model II Reply with quote
Quote:
I forgot to note the cambered wing undersides of my Model II vs the Model
III which I believe has flat undersides, and a correspondingly faster
cruise(?)


I could be mistaken but the flatter bottom wing started on the IV as well as the leading edge extension that added a few more mph.

I think the model 3 was a gross weight change from 950 to 1050 but the aileron differential started in model IV. The lighter any model will give you the best climb numbers as well as horsepower. The Rotax 2 stokes namely the 582 do in fact give the best power to weight ratio and perform well. The 912 ul 912 s and 914 will give you the extra torque in cruise to increase the cruise speeds. Where my 582 IV will cruise at 92 a similar weight IV with a 912 set up properly will give you 110 to 125 mph cruise.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:40 am    Post subject: Performance stats for a Model II Reply with quote
Bob:

I don't know whether the s/n is stamped somewhere on the airframe. Maybe someone out there knows? I only know mine from the paperwork I got when I bought the airplane. (S/n 374, delivered in 1989). I've heard here that there was some "blending" of the models between the last of the 2's and first of the 3's. Certainly, as non-structural mods were made these were incorporated into many kits then in-progress.

Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1

--- On Wed, 7/2/08, Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name> wrote:
Quote:
From: Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>
Subject: RE: Performance stats for a Model II
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 7:05 AM

Hi Marco - where do I find the serial number? My plane was finished in 1991 but I believe was worked on for several years, so may be a mixture of II and III?

I don't think I can do a takeoff in 75ft but less than 250ft would be easy, as would a slightly more than 100ft roll-out with a little precision and practice. The previous owner bragged of being able to do a "vertical" landing given enough headwind, and it's not too difficult to achieve 0mph groundspeed at altitude with full flaps, nose high, and power.

I also don't think 1600fpm sustained is possible in my Kitfox but 1000 is typical and I would guess I could push that to 1200 on a good day and no breakfast.

I thought that Model II to III was a beefing up for more MTOW as Marco said plus a larger tail assembly to correct the loss of control authority at low speeds, hardly anything that would increase performance stats as published.

The 2 pages from my "Kitfox Owners Manual Model II" are the same as http://cfisher.com/kitfox/kitfox2poh.pdf except that mine say "Model III" at the top, which is obviously wrong.

Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2(?) Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa



From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes
Sent: 01 July 2008 8:23 pm
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Performance stats for a Model II


Can't imagine the mods made to the 3 to increase MTOW to 1050 could possibly make much difference in the relative performance numbers. As I recall, it was mostly beefing up of the spar carry-trough tubes. Correct me if I'm wrong listers.

Clint's numbers are real-world. What's the kit s/n on your 2 Bob?

Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1

--- On Tue, 7/1/08, Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name> wrote:
Quote:
From: Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>
Subject: RE: Performance stats for a Model II
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 4:19 PM

#yiv1484170043 #yiv2028182423 .hmmessage P { PADDING-RIGHT:0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;MARGIN:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;} #yiv1484170043 #yiv2028182423 { FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma;} Those numbers certainly sound more realistic Clint. I got the numbers from the "Kitfox Owners Manual Model II" that came with the logbooks, and I assume came with the original kit from Denney. However the title on the Performance page says "Performance KITFOX Model III" and I am reading under the "Rotax 582LC, solo" column. I always thought the "III" was a typo since all the other data seems to match, and I have always been led to believe I have a Model II.

So I guess my question changes to - is 75ft takeoff and 100ft landing and 1600fpm climb out valid for a Model III? Does anyone have access to Model II performance pages that they can scan for me please? And what are the major recognisable differences between a Model II and III?

Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2(?!) Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clint Bazzill
Sent: 01 July 2008 3:30 pm
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Performance stats for a Model II

I don't know where you are getting your information. My Kitfox Pilot's Guide says that a Model II 582 powered aircraft has a take off distance of 250 feet, landing ground roll of 250 feet and climb rate of 900 feet / minute.

Clint

From: matronics(at)bob.brennan.name
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Performance stats for a Model II
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 09:50:25 -0400
Hi all - I have a general question about the published performance stats for my Model II, they don't seem to be realistic.

Specifically - the takeoff distance is listed as 75ft, landing roll as 100ft, both "solo". I've done some pretty quick off-the-grounders with a good headwind and no fuel to speak of, but 75ft?(!) Is this possibly an interpolated number for the aircraft at "empty" weight with no pilot or fuel? Obviously performance specs differ for every pilot/plane combination but I thought specs were for a typical 170(?)lb pilot at 0 MSL on a perfect day. I'm not that far off 170lb (well, not TOO far that a gallon or 2 of gas wouldn't make up for...)

Climb-out is listed as 1600fpm. In which parallel universe? I have achieved 900fpm sustained on a good day, alone, light fuel, and having recently lightened my own load (I call it "dumping ballast").

I have tested Vne, stall speeds in various configurations, best angle and best rate of climb, etc but not MTOW or max Gs, and have no intention of doing so, but with takeoff/landing distances and rate-of-climb seemingly so far off I have to wonder about the other stats.

Yes - the airplane is configured as stated in the performance data column and the engine only had 80 hours since a complete overhaul so I don't think age was a factor. The prop is a ground-adjustable type and was tested and re-set early in flight testing although I don't know if the setting is for optimal performance, that's the only thing I can think of.

Thanks in advance,

Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2 Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa

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skyflyte(at)comcast.net
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:23 pm    Post subject: Performance stats for a Model II Reply with quote
I have a model 2 and shared my hangar with a model 3.5. The 3.5 was a model 3 (1050#) with the model 4 wings and lift struts. We both have the same engine (582) and prop (GSC) and the 3.5 was about 10 mph faster at the same rpm setting. My model 2 was a bit lighter and I would regularly see 1300 fpm climb rates (at) 55 mph. I could get a bit higher climb rate if I wanted, but 1300 fpm was more than enough.
Mike Cannon
N490MC

[quote]-------------- Original message --------------
From: "dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com>

[quote] --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "dave"


> I forgot to note the cambered wing undersides of my Model II vs the Model
> III which I believe has flat undersides, and a correspondingly faster
> cruise(?)


I could be mistaken but the flatter bottom wing started on the IV as well as the
leading edge extension that added a few more mph.

I think the model 3 was a gross weight change from 950 to 1050 but the
aileron differential started in model IV. The lighter any model will give you
the best climb numbers as well as horsepower. The Rotax 2 stokes namely the
582 do in fact give the best power to weight ratio and perform well. The 912
ul 912 & [quote][b]

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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:11 pm    Post subject: Performance stats for a Model II Reply with quote
Marco-
The serial # on my IV is stamped on the shoulder harness center
location plate. Look closely, it may be obfuscated with powder coating.

Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200
Status: flying w/541 hrs


On Jul 2, 2008, at 10:36 AM, Marco Menezes wrote:

Quote:
Bob:
I don't know whether the s/n is stamped somewhere on the airframe.
Maybe someone out there knows? I only know mine from the paperwork
I got when I bought the airplane. (S/n 374, delivered in 1989).
I've heard here that there was some "blending" of the models
between the last of the 2's and first of the 3's. Certainly, as non-
structural mods were made these were incorporated into many kits
then in-progress.
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1
--- On Wed, 7/2/08, Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name> wrote:

From: Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>
Subject: RE: Performance stats for a Model II
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 7:05 AM

Hi Marco - where do I find the serial number? My plane was finished
in 1991 but I believe was worked on for several years, so may be a
mixture of II and III?

I don't think I can do a takeoff in 75ft but less than 250ft would
be easy, as would a slightly more than 100ft roll-out with a little
precision and practice. The previous owner bragged of being able to
do a "vertical" landing given enough headwind, and it's not too
difficult to achieve 0mph groundspeed at altitude with full flaps,
nose high, and power.

I also don't think 1600fpm sustained is possible in my Kitfox but
1000 is typical and I would guess I could push that to 1200 on a
good day and no breakfast.

I thought that Model II to III was a beefing up for more MTOW as
Marco said plus a larger tail assembly to correct the loss of
control authority at low speeds, hardly anything that would
increase performance stats as published.

The 2 pages from my "Kitfox Owners Manual Model II" are the same as
http://cfisher.com/kitfox/kitfox2poh.pdf except that mine say
"Model III" at the top, which is obviously wrong.

Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2(?) Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-
list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes
Sent: 01 July 2008 8:23 pm
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Performance stats for a Model II

Can't imagine the mods made to the 3 to increase MTOW to 1050 could
possibly make much difference in the relative performance numbers.
As I recall, it was mostly beefing up of the spar carry-trough
tubes. Correct me if I'm wrong listers.
Clint's numbers are real-world. What's the kit s/n on your 2 Bob?
Marco Menezes N99KX

Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1

--- On Tue, 7/1/08, Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name> wrote:

From: Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>
Subject: RE: Performance stats for a Model II
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 4:19 PM

Those numbers certainly sound more realistic Clint. I got the
numbers from the "Kitfox Owners Manual Model II" that came with the
logbooks, and I assume came with the original kit from Denney.
However the title on the Performance page says "Performance KITFOX
Model III" and I am reading under the "Rotax 582LC, solo" column. I
always thought the "III" was a typo since all the other data seems
to match, and I have always been led to believe I have a Model II.

So I guess my question changes to - is 75ft takeoff and 100ft
landing and 1600fpm climb out valid for a Model III? Does anyone
have access to Model II performance pages that they can scan for me
please? And what are the major recognisable differences between a
Model II and III?

Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2(?!) Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-
list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clint Bazzill
Sent: 01 July 2008 3:30 pm
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Performance stats for a Model II

I don't know where you are getting your information. My Kitfox
Pilot's Guide says that a Model II 582 powered aircraft has a take
off distance of 250 feet, landing ground roll of 250 feet and climb
rate of 900 feet / minute.

Clint

From: matronics(at)bob.brennan.name
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Performance stats for a Model II
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 09:50:25 -0400
Hi all - I have a general question about the published performance
stats for my Model II, they don't seem to be realistic.

Specifically - the takeoff distance is listed as 75ft, landing roll
as 100ft, both "solo". I've done some pretty quick off-the-
grounders with a good headwind and no fuel to speak of, but 75ft?
(!) Is this possibly an interpolated number for the aircraft at
"empty" weight with no pilot or fuel? Obviously performance specs
differ for every pilot/plane combination but I thought specs were
for a typical 170(?)lb pilot at 0 MSL on a perfect day. I'm not
that far off 170lb (well, not TOO far that a gallon or 2 of gas
wouldn't make up for...)

Climb-out is listed as 1600fpm. In which parallel universe? I have
achieved 900fpm sustained on a good day, alone, light fuel, and
having recently lightened my own load (I call it "dumping ballast").

I have tested Vne, stall speeds in various configurations, best
angle and best rate of climb, etc but not MTOW or max Gs, and have
no intention of doing so, but with takeoff/landing distances and
rate-of-climb seemingly so far off I have to wonder about the other
stats.

Yes - the airplane is configured as stated in the performance data
column and the engine only had 80 hours since a complete overhaul
so I don't think age was a factor. The prop is a ground-adjustable
type and was tested and re-set early in flight testing although I
don't know if the setting is for optimal performance, that's the
only thing I can think of.

Thanks in advance,

Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2 Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
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Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM
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Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:19 pm    Post subject: Performance stats for a Model II Reply with quote
Once I got my tachometer issues fixed I did better than that on Aerocet 1100 floats. Take off in near glass water was around 300 ft landing a lot shorter than that and climb was close to 1500 ft/min. With any wind at all take off was much faster.


[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01C8DC84.DB94B950[/img]

Noel Loveys
Campbellton, NL, Canada
CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
582 B box, Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats
[url=noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca[/url]


From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clint Bazzill
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 5:00 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Performance stats for a Model II



I don't know where you are getting your information. My Kitfox Pilot's Guide says that a Model II 582 powered aircraft has a take off distance of 250 feet, landing ground roll of 250 feet and climb rate of 900 feet / minute.

Clint




From: matronics(at)bob.brennan.name
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Performance stats for a Model II
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 09:50:25 -0400


Hi all - I have a general question about the published performance stats for my Model II, they don't seem to be realistic.



Specifically - the takeoff distance is listed as 75ft, landing roll as 100ft, both "solo". I've done some pretty quick off-the-grounders with a good headwind and no fuel to speak of, but 75ft?(!) Is this possibly an interpolated number for the aircraft at "empty" weight with no pilot or fuel? Obviously performance specs differ for every pilot/plane combination but I thought specs were for a typical 170(?)lb pilot at 0 MSL on a perfect day. I'm not that far off 170lb (well, not TOO far that a gallon or 2 of gas wouldn't make up for...)



Climb-out is listed as 1600fpm. In which parallel universe? I have achieved 900fpm sustained on a good day, alone, light fuel, and having recently lightened my own load (I call it "dumping ballast").



I have tested Vne, stall speeds in various configurations, best angle and best rate of climb, etc but not MTOW or max Gs, and have no intention of doing so, but with takeoff/landing distances and rate-of-climb seemingly so far off I have to wonder about the other stats.



Yes - the airplane is configured as stated in the performance data column and the engine only had 80 hours since a complete overhaul so I don't think age was a factor. The prop is a ground-adjustable type and was tested and re-set early in flight testing although I don't know if the setting is for optimal performance, that's the only thing I can think of.



Thanks in advance,



Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2 Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats
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PMorel



Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 62
Location: Locust Grove, GA USA
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:04 pm    Post subject: Performance stats for a Model II Reply with quote
I believe my serial # was stamped just aft of the turtle deck on the top plate

PMorel
Speedster 912
Ser # 80
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dave



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 3:34 am    Post subject: Re: Performance stats for a Model II Reply with quote
One more thing that most do not consider is that Skystar chopped the Rotax exhaust up and the 582s are likely to see 55 to 58 HP only not the 65 HP that the 582 is advertised as having.

IF you followed my older posts from last fall I did alot of experimenting with the 582 exhaust. I gained HP !! with stock exhaust by lengthening the header pipe and the 90 degree elbow. Only problem is that it is tight in there already to keep that pipe enclosed.

I have also built some tuned pipes and they work even better. I have only flown on wheels and skis with these pipes and not on floats yet. Hopefully floats go on soon . MY 582 have over 480 hours now and never been apart since new in June 2006. That being said it could blow apart on next flight as could any engine or prop.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:54 pm    Post subject: Performance stats for a Model II Reply with quote
Finally found the serial number in the paperwork - #705. Since Model 2 ranged from #258 to #748 you could cetainly call mine "the last of the 2's". So I guess I have a model 2.5, or maybe even a 2.9<g>

Bob Brennan
1991 UK Model 2.x Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa


From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes
Sent: 02 July 2008 10:37 am
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Performance stats for a Model II


Bob:

I don't know whether the s/n is stamped somewhere on the airframe. Maybe someone out there knows? I only know mine from the paperwork I got when I bought the airplane. (S/n 374, delivered in 1989). I've heard here that there was some "blending" of the models between the last of the 2's and first of the 3's. Certainly, as non-structural mods were made these were incorporated into many kits then in-progress.

Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1

--- On Wed, 7/2/08, Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name> wrote:
Quote:
From: Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>
Subject: RE: Performance stats for a Model II
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 7:05 AM

Hi Marco - where do I find the serial number? My plane was finished in 1991 but I believe was worked on for several years, so may be a mixture of II and III?

I don't think I can do a takeoff in 75ft but less than 250ft would be easy, as would a slightly more than 100ft roll-out with a little precision and practice. The previous owner bragged of being able to do a "vertical" landing given enough headwind, and it's not too difficult to achieve 0mph groundspeed at altitude with full flaps, nose high, and power.

I also don't think 1600fpm sustained is possible in my Kitfox but 1000 is typical and I would guess I could push that to 1200 on a good day and no breakfast.

I thought that Model II to III was a beefing up for more MTOW as Marco said plus a larger tail assembly to correct the loss of control authority at low speeds, hardly anything that would increase performance stats as published.

The 2 pages from my "Kitfox Owners Manual Model II" are the same as http://cfisher.com/kitfox/kitfox2poh.pdf except that mine say "Model III" at the top, which is obviously wrong.

Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2(?) Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa



From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes
Sent: 01 July 2008 8:23 pm
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Performance stats for a Model II


Can't imagine the mods made to the 3 to increase MTOW to 1050 could possibly make much difference in the relative performance numbers. As I recall, it was mostly beefing up of the spar carry-trough tubes. Correct me if I'm wrong listers.

Clint's numbers are real-world. What's the kit s/n on your 2 Bob?

Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1

--- On Tue, 7/1/08, Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name> wrote:
Quote:
From: Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>
Subject: RE: Performance stats for a Model II
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 4:19 PM

#yiv1484170043 #yiv2028182423 .hmmessage P { PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px } #yiv1484170043 #yiv2028182423 { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma } Those numbers certainly sound more realistic Clint. I got the numbers from the "Kitfox Owners Manual Model II" that came with the logbooks, and I assume came with the original kit from Denney. However the title on the Performance page says "Performance KITFOX Model III" and I am reading under the "Rotax 582LC, solo" column. I always thought the "III" was a typo since all the other data seems to match, and I have always been led to believe I have a Model II.

So I guess my question changes to - is 75ft takeoff and 100ft landing and 1600fpm climb out valid for a Model III? Does anyone have access to Model II performance pages that they can scan for me please? And what are the major recognisable differences between a Model II and III?

Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2(?!) Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clint Bazzill
Sent: 01 July 2008 3:30 pm
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Performance stats for a Model II

I don't know where you are getting your information. My Kitfox Pilot's Guide says that a Model II 582 powered aircraft has a take off distance of 250 feet, landing ground roll of 250 feet and climb rate of 900 feet / minute.

Clint

From: matronics(at)bob.brennan.name
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Performance stats for a Model II
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 09:50:25 -0400
Hi all - I have a general question about the published performance stats for my Model II, they don't seem to be realistic.

Specifically - the takeoff distance is listed as 75ft, landing roll as 100ft, both "solo". I've done some pretty quick off-the-grounders with a good headwind and no fuel to speak of, but 75ft?(!) Is this possibly an interpolated number for the aircraft at "empty" weight with no pilot or fuel? Obviously performance specs differ for every pilot/plane combination but I thought specs were for a typical 170(?)lb pilot at 0 MSL on a perfect day. I'm not that far off 170lb (well, not TOO far that a gallon or 2 of gas wouldn't make up for...)

Climb-out is listed as 1600fpm. In which parallel universe? I have achieved 900fpm sustained on a good day, alone, light fuel, and having recently lightened my own load (I call it "dumping ballast").

I have tested Vne, stall speeds in various configurations, best angle and best rate of climb, etc but not MTOW or max Gs, and have no intention of doing so, but with takeoff/landing distances and rate-of-climb seemingly so far off I have to wonder about the other stats.

Yes - the airplane is configured as stated in the performance data column and the engine only had 80 hours since a complete overhaul so I don't think age was a factor. The prop is a ground-adjustable type and was tested and re-set early in flight testing although I don't know if the setting is for optimal performance, that's the only thing I can think of.

Thanks in advance,

Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2 Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa

Quote:


target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
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href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c



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3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List"'>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
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[b]

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Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:36 pm    Post subject: Performance stats for a Model II Reply with quote
My baby, The Beothuck Explorer, is #736 and was supposed to be upgraded to model III. Personally I don’t see where any upgrades were done but for the record it was registered as a Kitfox Model III-A


[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01C8E52B.F5375DE0[/img]

Noel Loveys
Campbellton, NL, Canada
CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
912 almost ready to hang, Aerocet 1100 floats
[url=noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca[/url]

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 11:14 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Performance stats for a Model II



Finally found the serial number in the paperwork - #705. Since Model 2 ranged from #258 to #748 you could cetainly call mine "the last of the 2's". So I guess I have a model 2.5, or maybe even a 2.9<g>

Bob Brennan

1991 UK Model 2.x Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa





From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes
Sent: 02 July 2008 10:37 am
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Performance stats for a Model II
Bob:

I don't know whether the s/n is stamped somewhere on the airframe. Maybe someone out there knows? I only know mine from the paperwork I got when I bought the airplane. (S/n 374, delivered in 1989). I've heard here that there was some "blending" of the models between the last of the 2's and first of the 3's. Certainly, as non-structural mods were made these were incorporated into many kits then in-progress.

Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1

--- On Wed, 7/2/08, Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name> wrote:
Quote:

From: Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>
Subject: RE: Performance stats for a Model II
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 7:05 AM
Hi Marco - where do I find the serial number? My plane was finished in 1991 but I believe was worked on for several years, so may be a mixture of II and III?

I don't think I can do a takeoff in 75ft but less than 250ft would be easy, as would a slightly more than 100ft roll-out with a little precision and practice. The previous owner bragged of being able to do a "vertical" landing given enough headwind, and it's not too difficult to achieve 0mph groundspeed at altitude with full flaps, nose high, and power.

I also don't think 1600fpm sustained is possible in my Kitfox but 1000 is typical and I would guess I could push that to 1200 on a good day and no breakfast.

I thought that Model II to III was a beefing up for more MTOW as Marco said plus a larger tail assembly to correct the loss of control authority at low speeds, hardly anything that would increase performance stats as published.

The 2 pages from my "Kitfox Owners Manual Model II" are the same as http://cfisher.com/kitfox/kitfox2poh.pdf except that mine say "Model III" at the top, which is obviously wrong.

Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2(?) Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa



From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes
Sent: 01 July 2008 8:23 pm
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Performance stats for a Model II
Can't imagine the mods made to the 3 to increase MTOW to 1050 could possibly make much difference in the relative performance numbers. As I recall, it was mostly beefing up of the spar carry-trough tubes. Correct me if I'm wrong listers.

Clint's numbers are real-world. What's the kit s/n on your 2 Bob?

Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1

--- On Tue, 7/1/08, Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name> wrote:
Quote:

From: Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>
Subject: RE: Performance stats for a Model II
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 4:19 PM
Those numbers certainly sound more realistic Clint. I got the numbers from the "Kitfox Owners Manual Model II" that came with the logbooks, and I assume came with the original kit from Denney. However the title on the Performance page says "Performance KITFOX Model III" and I am reading under the "Rotax 582LC, solo" column. I always thought the "III" was a typo since all the other data seems to match, and I have always been led to believe I have a Model II.

So I guess my question changes to - is 75ft takeoff and 100ft landing and 1600fpm climb out valid for a Model III? Does anyone have access to Model II performance pages that they can scan for me please? And what are the major recognisable differences between a Model II and III?

Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2(?!) Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa



From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clint Bazzill
Sent: 01 July 2008 3:30 pm
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Performance stats for a Model II
I don't know where you are getting your information. My Kitfox Pilot's Guide says that a Model II 582 powered aircraft has a take off distance of 250 feet, landing ground roll of 250 feet and climb rate of 900 feet / minute.

Clint




From: matronics(at)bob.brennan.name
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Performance stats for a Model II
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 09:50:25 -0400


Hi all - I have a general question about the published performance stats for my Model II, they don't seem to be realistic.



Specifically - the takeoff distance is listed as 75ft, landing roll as 100ft, both "solo". I've done some pretty quick off-the-grounders with a good headwind and no fuel to speak of, but 75ft?(!) Is this possibly an interpolated number for the aircraft at "empty" weight with no pilot or fuel? Obviously performance specs differ for every pilot/plane combination but I thought specs were for a typical 170(?)lb pilot at 0 MSL on a perfect day. I'm not that far off 170lb (well, not TOO far that a gallon or 2 of gas wouldn't make up for...)



Climb-out is listed as 1600fpm. In which parallel universe? I have achieved 900fpm sustained on a good day, alone, light fuel, and having recently lightened my own load (I call it "dumping ballast").



I have tested Vne, stall speeds in various configurations, best angle and best rate of climb, etc but not MTOW or max Gs, and have no intention of doing so, but with takeoff/landing distances and rate-of-climb seemingly so far off I have to wonder about the other stats.



Yes - the airplane is configured as stated in the performance data column and the engine only had 80 hours since a complete overhaul so I don't think age was a factor. The prop is a ground-adjustable type and was tested and re-set early in flight testing although I don't know if the setting is for optimal performance, that's the only thing I can think of.



Thanks in advance,



Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2 Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
Quote:
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- The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List


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