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Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???
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mdkitfox(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:20 am Post subject: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

Michel, 

 

  Multi engine airplanes are different animals than singles.  In fact some multi's cannot recover from a deep, high speed, or full stall without going into a spin and eating up a lot of altitude before and IF it can ever be recovered.  Sometimes, if the spin can be stopped, a steep spiral is entered and the speed builds up quickly, well beyond Vne, and the aircraft comes apart.  There are some multi's, jets for instance, that you should never stall because they are simply not recoverable.  That's why stick shakers are usually on board.  These devices vibrate the stick to alert the pilot a stall is being approached.  If the pilot refuses to correct the condition, the stick will automatically push forward to avoid the stall.  What this means is the designers know if the aircraft stalls, the airplane will never recover, regardless of the altitude, so the nose is pushed down in a last ditch attempt for the aircraft to save itself.  Thus, most multi instruction includes a lot of stall recognition work and the full stall is avoided. 

  

 

  I would guess the Swearingen should not be stalled, but recovered before it fully develops.  I would also surmise it is unrecoverable, and it is certified such that spins, (and stalls) are not permitted.  Low altitude steep turns can quickly get out of hand in such a clean airplane.  A spiral or high speed stall can be encountered, and that's pretty much the end of the20story.  None of this true in our airplanes as they can be recovered without much problem, as long as the aircraft is within CG limits.

  

 

  Rick Weiss

  Series V Speedster

  

 

 --

mdkitfox(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:25 am Post subject: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

Jimmy Franklin flew the stock Model IV Speedster that SkyStar used as a demonstrator.  No mods or enhancements.  It was a 912, 80HP.  I remember watching the demo at Oshkosh with Phil Reed who owned the Company at the time.  He couldn't watch the show.  It made him too nervous.  He said the Company's future was on the line if the show ended 'poorly'. 

 

  Rick Weiss

  Series V Speedster

 

 

 --

cliffh(at)outdrs.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:48 am Post subject: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

Many years ago, when I was in the Air Force we were told not to spin the 

F-89 as it would lose 20,000 ft per turn.



Floran Higgins

Helena Mt.

Speedster

912ULS

---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:27 pm Post subject: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

Michel:



My best guess, and that's all it is, would be icing.  Everything seems to

fit for that.  A large body of salt water, twin engine with lots of power

and IFR.  I lost a friend many years ago for what we guess was the same

reason.  He was flying a Grumman Widgeon...  They eventually found his

leather flight jacket... inside out.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

 	  Quote: 	
		  I'm pretty sure it was a stock Speedster with 912. Jimmy Franklin was about as good as they get and could probably have done aerobatics in an ultra light without over stressing it. 



Deke Morisse 

Mikado Michigan 

S5/Subaru/CAP 380+ TT 	




Likewise but I think Jimmy refused to fly with an IVO prop as he was afraid when coming down the prop might flex enough to hit the cowling. I  think he opted for the GSC. 



I have  a G meter in my IV and a great investment for anyone.

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Don G

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 156
Location: Central Illinois

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

JetPilot,

\Here are my thoughts...Kindof random..

For me and my speedster...barrel rolls are cool..but its easy to get way out on the yaw...aileron rolls the same way...gotta work the heck out of the rudder to master yaw. Loops pretty easy too...but it could use more up elevator sometimes, so watch the speed on the down side.

 Thats about all I do with it on purpose. I have a g'meter and take care to go easy on the G's. 

The area I think about is and inspect closely is the longeron tubes just aft of the seats back to the Horizontals attach points , as There is not alot of structure there and in my mind, when I get a little sideways in the air...I think about the forces on the tail and the tubes in this area.



Somewhere I have a doc that tells about the MK4 Speedster and it G'loading test and aerobatic testing done by SkyStar, and I cant remember for certain, but the aerobatic ratings were all at a lower gross...like 1100 or something. I never do any extreme attitude manuvers with a passenger, or even full fuel for that matter to keep the max stress within reason. Seldom hit 3 G's...but...I am no expert, so, sometimes....errrr.......That recall feature on the G'meter tells how bad I did.

Also keep in mind...this stuff is for a Mk4 Speedster...not a long wing. or any earlier models. Although I have no doubt that rolls in a long wing should be a none issue, and of course watch the G's



Heres a link to Jimmy Franklins flight at OshKosh in the Speedster demo bird. (You will see that even Jimmy had yaw to deal with.)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6Xj8FOUtGc



It wont handle like a 150 aerobat, not even close. Much Quicker rates and harder to keep the yaw in check.

And if you enter a roll like you do in a Pitts, by slamming the stick  over to the stop...it will roll so fast you will bang your head on the window. (dang near either one!)

_________________
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
RV9A

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:12 am Post subject: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: mdkitfox(at)aol.com

 Multi engine airplanes are different animals than singles.


	


Thanks Rick and Noel.

I read that the PIC was 62 years old and the instructor. I was simply wondering how such a training flight could end up so bad. Certainly the instructor was aware of the flight characteristic of that aircraft and aware of icing, if ever it was. The Norwegian sea is warmed by the Gulfstream and the 0-isotherm is seldom under FL 100 in the summer but ... who knows.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

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_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

l.morris(at)tx.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:49 am Post subject: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

I don't think most people that flew the Metro considered it to be all that powerful. In fact the early models were so bad that they had a Jado bottle in the tail just in case you lost an engine on takeoff to give you afew seconds to get altitude and hopefully stay airborne. Also I think the horizonal stab on the Metro was half way up the tail like the Jetstream 31, in which case may have had the same problem with tail plane stall under certain configurations.The Jetstream also had a caution on tail plane icing that if it was allowed to build the tail plane could stall before the wing.    Leon Morris/Classic 4/ 65%/ Flower Mound, TX

---- Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> wrote: 

[quote] 

 

 Michel:

 

 My best guess, and that's all it is, would be icing.  Everything seems to

 fit for that.  A large body of salt water, twin engine with lots of power

 and IFR.  I lost a friend many years ago for what we guess was the same

 reason.  He was flying a Grumman Widgeon...  They eventually found his

 leather flight jacket... inside out.

 

 Noel

 

 --

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:52 am Post subject: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

Don G,



Thanks for the good information on aerobatics in your Kitfox, that is the exact information I was looking for.   How many G's are you confortable pulling in your Kitfox on a regular basis ?



I will most definitely build the long wing Super Sport version,  there are so many advantages to having a longer wingspan, that I can live with a slightly slower roll rate.

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Don G

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 156
Location: Central Illinois

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:38 pm Post subject: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

JP,

How many comfortably?...hmmm....thats kinda like asking how big are your &(at)LL$. and theres alot less brass in mine than there used to be!



I will tell you I attempt to keep 3 g's as my limit. Dont always succeed...but thats what I shoot for. IF I was a better pilot, I am sure it could be accomplished.



My Mk IV Speedster is an old kit...mid 90's design , so I would certainly think newer is better. And If I were doing it today...I would make the SuperSport long wing choice as well. Mostly for the load carrying ability.

My bird is right at 700lbs empty, so with me (190) and passenger around 200lbs, that only leaves 100 lbs for fuel and baggage at the 1200 Gross.

Not that I don't think it would carry more structurally, but it gets sluggish, and at cruise the there is a noticeable increase in attitude at level flight, and upon landing at the higher weights it plops down noticeably quicker (at a higher speed).

For instance, I regularly fly with my wife..(at) 150lbs and full fuel. This puts us 25 lbs or so below gross. not counting what she has in her purse!

My "comfortable" 47-4800rpm cruise is about 90 when we go somewhere like this... but with me alone and half fuel...4800 yields 105 regularly . When you look down the wing at the horizon, the attitude difference is immediately noticed between these 2 configurations.

To me...this behavior is simply an indication the craft could use a little more wing for these jaunts. Yes, It would sacrifice some speed, but a 100 hp engine should take care of part of that. as far as the roll rate, less wouldnt bother it a bit, as I dont use full deflection hardly ever if I have any speed at all.

_________________
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
RV9A

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:13 pm Post subject: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

 	  Don G wrote: 	
		  JP,

How many comfortably?...hmmm....thats kinda like asking how big are your &(at)LL$. and theres alot less brass in mine than there used to be!



	




I think you have lots of brass in them if you are willing to publish your wifes weight on a public list   



As far as long wings, many planes actually cruise faster at heavier weights with long wings due to the reduction of angle of attack, the benefit of more lift more than makes up for the increased drag of 6 feet of wing.



Are you using the 912-S ?   Which prop are  you using ?  I  have a 912-s that I will be using.   I have seen some people post cruise numbers of 110 and a bit higher, do you have wheel pants and strut fairings ?   I am  not at all familiar what the difference between the older model and new Super Sport kitfox are.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Don G

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 156
Location: Central Illinois

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:25 am Post subject: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???

JP..I have an 80 hp 912A on mine. which was the prescribed engine for that kit. I do think its plenty  for the speedster. Performance at 1050 to 1100lbs TOW is really great...climbs forever at 1000 fps, well..not maybe forever..but till I get cold anyway!

 I am running a 72 inch 3 blade warp taper tip, pitched for 5500 WOT in flight. (and it take a minute to get there)

turns 5200 on climbout pulling hard.

I have strut fairings of my own design and no pants..I also replaced the original bungee gear with Grove gear.

I actually do have a set of pants, but they are in the way getting in and out, I need to put my foot on the tire...and the way I land sometimes I would probably knock em off anyway, so I leave em off.

 I dont know all the differences either between the new supersport and a MK4..but I know the cowl and fuse is wider on the SS and its wider at the firewall.....and its longer in the waist..

The Doors fit alot better on the SS...with square tubing instead of round, Interior is more refined. 

All in all The newer bird is superior I think, not that I don't like the MK4 mind you, I love it, but the natural evolution of the design has just got better with time, as one would expect. and remembering that there has been alot of time and several models between the Speedster and the New SS. In fact, I think it could be said that the current SS is really a combination of all the features of the Mk5 and subsequent models that were deemed as worthwhile and wider market pleasing.  (Mr McBean might need to speak to this)..As alot of things are always compromises..the wider cabin and longer length makes it slower, but it gives more comfort and better yaw stability I assume. When I am alone, it don't care a bit about the cabin width, but with a passenger, not a minute goes by you don't wish for a little more room.

also with the 80 hp, that 47-4800 cruise I like also reads 3 gph on the flowmeter..the 100 hp wont do that I dont think. And if I really feel frugal I can cruise comfortably at 2.3 gph at about 70 mph.

which brings to mind, although a small thing.. its hard to cruise comfortably at 60 mph, you have to really work at the controls. and the attitude is nose high. I only know this because I have attempted to travel with some fellas in 2 seat "ultralight types" and they like to cruise at 60, mostly to keep their fuel gulping 582's down to an affordable rate! Again, A tad more wing and this would probably be easier. I have flown with a friend in a Mk3 with a 582, and he likes to cruise at 70 for the same reason, and when we land, he always tops off the tanks, and I seldom have room for enough to justify taxing to the pumps. I burn less than half his rate at 70 mph.

I dont want to make it sound like I am dissing the Speedster here...I think it is an awful lot of "bang for the buck" in light aircraft..outrunning any C150 ( or any 100 hp spam can..)and dancing in the skies like a  Decathalon wannabe, all on so little fuel burn.  Considering the prices Speedsters bring today...I think its likely the very best value in a flying machine bar none. But building one new would cost no less than a SS, so the current SS kits are the way to go if building I think.

_________________
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
RV9A

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