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msausen
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA
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 Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS |
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Any chance anyone has heard if Rob is going to add a flight path marker to the AFS EFIS's? Seems like a glaring hole in capability that everyone else now has and I would think it will be coming in a future release. Too me this is a big item in an EFIS. I know he monitors our list so maybe he will chime in.
Michael
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RobHickman(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS |
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In a message dated 8/6/2008 12:27:43 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, rvbuilder(at)sausen.net writes:
| Quote: | | Any chance anyone has heard if Rob is going to add a flight path marker to the AFS EFIS's? Seems like a glaring hole in capability that everyone else now has and I would think it will be coming in a future release. Too me this is a big item in an EFIS. |
We are currently working on it and it will be in a future release. You should consider adding the following to your list of EFIS manufacturer glaring holes:
1. AOA that work properly with the flaps up and down and can be used to fly an approach.
2. Battery backup so that when your master switch or battery contactor fails you still have an EFIS.
3. Airspace data that is actually updated on the web site every 28 days, for free.
4. An AHRS that works if and when you lose pitot or gps.
We got back yesterday from Oshkosh in our RV-10 and it now has 61 hours on it, the more I fly it the more impressed I am with it. The weather, traffic, built in oxygen, large moving map display, autopilot, and all that room make it amazingly comfortable to fly on long trips.
Rob Hickman
N402RH Flying
Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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msausen
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS |
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I’m using your AOA so I hope it doesn’t have those problems. J
Michael
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RobHickman(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 8:01 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS
In a message dated 8/6/2008 12:27:43 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, rvbuilder(at)sausen.net writes:
| Quote: |
Any chance anyone has heard if Rob is going to add a flight path marker to the AFS EFIS's? Seems like a glaring hole in capability that everyone else now has and I would think it will be coming in a future release. Too me this is a big item in an EFIS. |
We are currently working on it and it will be in a future release. You should consider adding the following to your list of EFIS manufacturer glaring holes:
1. AOA that work properly with the flaps up and down and can be used to fly an approach.
2. Battery backup so that when your master switch or battery contactor fails you still have an EFIS.
3. Airspace data that is actually updated on the web site every 28 days, for free.
4. An AHRS that works if and when you lose pitot or gps.
We got back yesterday from Oshkosh in our RV-10 and it now has 61 hours on it, the more I fly it the more impressed I am with it. The weather, traffic, built in oxygen, large moving map display, autopilot, and all that room make it amazingly comfortable to fly on long trips.
Rob Hickman
N402RH Flying
Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
0123456789
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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pascal(at)rv10builder.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:13 pm Post subject: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS |
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Rob;
Please tell us your developing all this for future releases. I am already committed to get your AOA and 3500 or DECK so that would be great news!
Thanks for the info.
Pascal
From: RobHickman(at)aol.com (RobHickman(at)aol.com)
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 6:00 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS
In a message dated 8/6/2008 12:27:43 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, rvbuilder(at)sausen.net (rvbuilder(at)sausen.net) writes:
| Quote: | | Any chance anyone has heard if Rob is going to add a flight path marker to the AFS EFIS's? Seems like a glaring hole in capability that everyone else now has and I would think it will be coming in a future release. Too me this is a big item in an EFIS. |
We are currently working on it and it will be in a future release. You should consider adding the following to your list of EFIS manufacturer glaring holes:
1. AOA that work properly with the flaps up and down and can be used to fly an approach.
2. Battery backup so that when your master switch or battery contactor fails you still have an EFIS.
3. Airspace data that is actually updated on the web site every 28 days, for free.
4. An AHRS that works if and when you lose pitot or gps.
We got back yesterday from Oshkosh in our RV-10 and it now has 61 hours on it, the more I fly it the more impressed I am with it. The weather, traffic, built in oxygen, large moving map display, autopilot, and all that room make it amazingly comfortable to fly on long trips.
Rob Hickman
N402RH Flying
Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.
[quote]
title="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
CTRL + Click to follow link" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
to follow link" href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
[b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:00 pm Post subject: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS |
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I think Rob was mentioning that list because those are things that the AFS HAS and most/all of the others lack. Either that or he's not much of a salesman. 
do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Aug 6, 2008, at 10:11 PM, pascal wrote:
| Quote: | Rob;
Please tell us your developing all this for future releases. I am already committed to get your AOA and 3500 or DECK so that would be great news!
Thanks for the info.
Pascal
From: RobHickman(at)aol.com (RobHickman(at)aol.com)
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 6:00 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS
In a message dated 8/6/2008 12:27:43 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, rvbuilder(at)sausen.net (rvbuilder(at)sausen.net) writes:
| Quote: | | Any chance anyone has heard if Rob is going to add a flight path marker to the AFS EFIS's? Seems like a glaring hole in capability that everyone else now has and I would think it will be coming in a future release. Too me this is a big item in an EFIS. |
We are currently working on it and it will be in a future release. You should consider adding the following to your list of EFIS manufacturer glaring holes:
1. AOA that work properly with the flaps up and down and can be used to fly an approach.
2. Battery backup so that when your master switch or battery contactor fails you still have an EFIS.
3. Airspace data that is actually updated on the web site every 28 days, for free.
4. An AHRS that works if and when you lose pitot or gps.
We got back yesterday from Oshkosh in our RV-10 and it now has 61 hours on it, the more I fly it the more impressed I am with it. The weather, traffic, built in oxygen, large moving map display, autopilot, and all that room make it amazingly comfortable to fly on long trips.
Rob Hickman
N402RH Flying
Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.
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[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:33 am Post subject: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS |
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All systems have some dependency; its in the math. The key is using two systems with different dependencies or backup round instruments.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 8:56 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS
I think Rob was mentioning that list because those are things that the AFS HAS and most/all of the others lack. Either that or he's not much of a salesman.
do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Aug 6, 2008, at 10:11 PM, pascal wrote:
[quote] Rob;
Please tell us your developing all this for future releases. I am already committed to get your AOA and 3500 or DECK so that would be great news!
Thanks for the info.
Pascal
From: RobHickman(at)aol.com (RobHickman(at)aol.com)
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 6:00 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS
In a message dated 8/6/2008 12:27:43 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, rvbuilder(at)sausen.net (rvbuilder(at)sausen.net) writes:
| Quote: | | Any chance anyone has heard if Rob is going to add a flight path marker to the AFS EFIS's? Seems like a glaring hole in capability that everyone else now has and I would think it will be coming in a future release. Too me this is a big item in an EFIS. |
We are currently working on it and it will be in a future release. You should consider adding the following to your list of EFIS manufacturer glaring holes:
1. AOA that work properly with the flaps up and down and can be used to fly an approach.
2. Battery backup so that when your master switch or battery contactor fails you still have an EFIS.
3. Airspace data that is actually updated on the web site every 28 days, for free.
4. An AHRS that works if and when you lose pitot or gps.
We got back yesterday from Oshkosh in our RV-10 and it now has 61 hours on it, the more I fly it the more impressed I am with it. The weather, traffic, built in oxygen, large moving map display, autopilot, and all that room make it amazingly comfortable to fly on long trips.
Rob Hickman
N402RH Flying
Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
[b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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RobHickman(at)AOL.COM
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:31 am Post subject: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS |
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In a message dated 8/7/2008 3:35:39 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, dlm46007(at)cox.net writes:
| Quote: | All systems have some dependency; its in the math. The key is using two systems with different dependencies or backup round instruments.
|
There is a major difference with how much dependency different AHRS designs use and how they will perform under different conditions and with the loss of aiding. The problem is that the MEMS sensors that are used in AHRS designs drift with temperature, vibration and age. There is a major difference in how well the different MEMS gyros behave under changing temperature, age and vibration and is somewhat related to the cost of the sensors. To make an AHRS that performs well one must understand how the sensors will perform under these conditions for each AHRS being manufactured. The less accurate the sensors are and the less predictable their behavior, more aiding is required. Crossbow puts every one of their sensors through a 12-hour temperature calibration cycle three different times to map how each sensor performs. Every AHRS is calibrated on a dual-axis ovenized rate table (cost $250,000 each) and the Magnetometer is calibrated using an expensive Helmholtz cage. The same basic Crossbow AHRS design that we use is also being used in many certified aircraft and even regulated Air Taxi operations.
| Quote: |
I think Rob was mentioning that list because those are things that the AFS HAS and most/all of the others lack. Either that or he's not much of a salesman. |
We have had all the items below for a long time.
1. AOA that work properly with the flaps up and down and can be used to fly an approach.
2. Battery backup so that when your master switch or battery contactor fails you still have an EFIS.
3. Airspace data that is actually updated on the web site every 28 days, for free.
4. An AHRS that works if and when you lose pitot or gps.
Rob Hickman
Advanced Flight Systems
N402RH RV-10 Flying
Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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johngoodman
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: GA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:22 am Post subject: Re: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS |
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"1. AOA that work properly with the flaps up and down and can be used to fly an approach. "
I find this statement a little strange, although I'm not familiar with the AFS AoA system. Angle of Attack is Angle of Attack; it doesn't matter if the flaps are up or down. The stall indication should always be at actual stall. At least that's true with analog systems. Does the AFS system do something to the raw data?
John
"old Navy AoA user"
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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#40572 Phase One complete in 2011 |
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RobHickman(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:52 pm Post subject: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS |
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In a message dated 8/7/2008 12:26:14 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, johngoodman(at)earthlink.net writes:
| Quote: | I find this statement a little strange, although I'm not familiar with the AFS AoA system. Angle of Attack is Angle of Attack; it doesn't matter if the flaps are up or down. The stall indication should always be at actual stall. At least that's true with analog systems. Does the AFS system do something to the raw data?
|
Best approach, L/D max, and the stalling aoa are a function of the airfoil, if you drop the flaps you change the airfoil shape. Even the Vane based Rite-Angle AOA systems have flap position inputs.
I have thee different AOA systems in my RV-4 from two different manufacturers, there is a significant difference in how well they work.
Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10
Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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brian-douglas(at)uiowa.ed
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:10 pm Post subject: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS |
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So I’m not trying to start any EFIS wars or anything but I notice that Dynon has a AOA system:
http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/D180_Feature_AOA.html
In reading the points below am I’m to believe that the dynon system doesn’t work well with flaps and cannot be used to fly an approach? Again, I’m not trying to start anything but rather I’m trying to understand the relative benefits of the AFS AOA vs the Dynon AOA. Perhaps Rob, or someone else, can shed some light here.
-Brian
Iowa City, IA
#40497
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RobHickman(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 8:01 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS
In a message dated 8/6/2008 12:27:43 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, rvbuilder(at)sausen.net writes:
| Quote: |
Any chance anyone has heard if Rob is going to add a flight path marker to the AFS EFIS's? Seems like a glaring hole in capability that everyone else now has and I would think it will be coming in a future release. Too me this is a big item in an EFIS. |
We are currently working on it and it will be in a future release. You should consider adding the following to your list of EFIS manufacturer glaring holes:
1. AOA that work properly with the flaps up and down and can be used to fly an approach.
2. Battery backup so that when your master switch or battery contactor fails you still have an EFIS.
3. Airspace data that is actually updated on the web site every 28 days, for free.
4. An AHRS that works if and when you lose pitot or gps.
We got back yesterday from Oshkosh in our RV-10 and it now has 61 hours on it, the more I fly it the more impressed I am with it. The weather, traffic, built in oxygen, large moving map display, autopilot, and all that room make it amazingly comfortable to fly on long trips.
Rob Hickman
N402RH Flying
Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
0123456789
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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johngoodman
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: GA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: Advanced Flight Systems EFIS |
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| Quote: | Best approach, L/D max, and the stalling aoa are a function of the airfoil, if you drop the flaps you change the airfoil shape.� Even the Vane based Rite-Angle AOA systems have flap position inputs.
I have thee different AOA systems in my RV-4 from two different manufacturers, there is a significant difference in how well they work.
Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10 |
Rob,
You are correct but flaps do more that change the shape of the wing. They change the angle of incidence. The part of the wing out at the ailerons is actually moved to a lower angle of attack due to that change. That's why the tail (behind the flaps) will stall first with washout. The wing is still flying and the ailerons are too. I think the key here is Absolute AoA versus Geometric AoA. If systems are making corrections to AoA, then they must be using some kind of a Geometric AoA. A stall vane that measures nothing but the Absolute AoA will indicate the exact same angle at stall for flaps up or flaps down.
I am not an expert so I'm sure somebody out there will make a better case. My original bewilderment was about the statement that the AFS system AoA is not fully usable with the flaps in a certain position.
John
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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#40572 Phase One complete in 2011 |
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