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650 and BSR chute
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mfazio0001(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:20 am Post subject: 650 and BSR chute

I love the new 650 - with the 601 I was considering the possibility of adding a ballistic chute as Scott has done which was installed in the baggage compartment. With the new 650 design could a chute be installed? Seems you would have to mount it up against the canopy, (doesn't seem very practical or attractive) or move it farther back on the turtle deck ( seems weight and balance would be an issue). 

  

 I tend to think the chute is a bit of overkill as I trust the design but just considering the options.

  

 Mike

  [quote][b]

lwinger

Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 229
Location: Tustin, CA

Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: 650 and BSR chute

I spoke with Roger at ZAC today, and he said that AMD is making the 650 with the BRS behind the new baggage back bulkhead.  Yes, it does shift the CG back a bit, but it also protects the BRS from getting fouled with other personal baggage.  One of the only other issues I'm wondering about is access for maintenance, but I'm sure they figured it out.  When I get specific installation info from AMD, I'll try to post it here.  Hopefully others will do the same.

   

 Larry Winger

 Tustin, CA

 Plans building 601XL/650 with Corvair

 Fuse 50%

 Wings and control surfaces done.



  [quote][b]

_________________
Larry Winger
Tustin, CA
Plans building 601XL/650 with Corvair
Installing fuel system
www.mykitlog.com/lwinger

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:23 am Post subject: Re: 650 and BSR chute

 	  lwinger wrote: 	
		    One of the only other issues I'm wondering about is access for maintenance, but I'm sure they figured it out. 	




Just a wild guess but probably through the "bomb bay" access in the floor of the rear fuselage.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

hills(at)sunflower.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:43 pm Post subject: 650 and BSR chute

Larry Winger  

   

   

Do you know, how does the parachute attach to the low wing 650?  

   

Thanks  

   

Roger  

   

   

   

         

  

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Winger

 Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 1:14 PM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: 650 and BSR chute  

  

       

I spoke with Roger at ZAC today, and he said that AMD is making the 650 with the BRS behind the new baggage back bulkhead.  Yes, it does shift the CG back a bit, but it also protects the BRS from getting fouled with other personal baggage.  One of the only other issues I'm wondering about is access for maintenance, but I'm sure they figured it out.  When I get specific installation info from AMD, I'll try to post it here.  Hopefully others will do the same.  

    

   

    

Larry Winger  

    

Tustin,  CA  

    

Plans building 601XL/650 with Corvair  

    

Fuse 50%  

    

Wings and control surfaces done.  

  

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Iberplanes

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:12 pm Post subject: 650 and BSR chute

FYI,



The 650 canopy will fit the XL and is compatible with the  BRS chute. The 601XL has a little deeper baggage compartment than the 650. On  the 601XL the rear of the baggage compartment will still be under the aluminum  skin. This will allow for the normal 601XL BRS chute installation. On the 650  the rear baggage bulkhead has been move forward a little and the BRS is  installed behind that bulkhead. I would not change the location of the rear  bulkhead and just leave the BRS in the rear portion of the baggage  compartment.

   

  

-- 

Alberto Martin

www.iberplanes.es

Igualada - Barcelona - Spain



----------------------------------------------

 Zodiac 601 XL Builder

Serial: 6-7011



Tail Kit: Finished

Wings: Not Started

Fuselage: Ordered

Engine: Jabiru 3300

 

  [quote][b]

_________________
Alberto Martin
601 XL - Jabiru 3300
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

lwinger

Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 229
Location: Tustin, CA

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject: 650 and BSR chute

I spoke briefly with the folks at AMD last week and got the impression that they were installing the BRS behind the new standard location for the rear baggage bulkhead.  I didn't hear any talk about having to move that.  What I don't yet know is what kinds of modifications were necessary to make it work.  Once I get a clear picture, I plan to share it with the group.

   

 Larry Winger

 Tustin, CA

 Scratchbuilding 601XL turned 650/Corvair

 Wings & control surfaces done. Fuse 50%.



  [quote][b]

_________________
Larry Winger
Tustin, CA
Plans building 601XL/650 with Corvair
Installing fuel system
www.mykitlog.com/lwinger

d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject: 650 and BSR chute

I wonder if pilots with power parachute  craft spend as much time wondering how to attach fixed wings to their  aircraft in case the chute fails... 

  

 Just wondering.... 

   [quote][b]

daveaustin2(at)primus.ca
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 3:14 pm Post subject: 650 and BSR chute

Well said, Dave G.

 Dave Austin  601HDS -  912

    [quote][b]

lwinger

Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 229
Location: Tustin, CA

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 3:54 pm Post subject: 650 and BSR chute

As a scratch builder, I'd say I've spent at least as much time as anyone else.  Maybe more than most.  Life doesn't have to be "either or."  "Both/and" can also be very advantageous.

   

 Larry Winger

 Do Not Archive

 On Sat, Aug 9, 2008 at 4:01 PM, Dave G. <d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico.ca (d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico.ca)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		    I wonder if pilots with power parachute craft spend as much time wondering how to attach fixed wings to their aircraft in case the chute fails... 

  

 Just wondering.... 

  	  Quote: 	
		  

	




	
  

  [quote][b]

_________________
Larry Winger
Tustin, CA
Plans building 601XL/650 with Corvair
Installing fuel system
www.mykitlog.com/lwinger

Iberplanes

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject: 650 and BSR chute

....and what´s the problem if people like to install a chute? 

-- 

Alberto Martin

www.iberplanes.es

Igualada - Barcelona - Spain



----------------------------------------------

 Zodiac 601 XL Builder

Serial: 6-7011



Tail Kit: Finished

Wings: Not Started

Fuselage: Ordered

Engine: Jabiru 3300

 

  [quote][b]

_________________
Alberto Martin
601 XL - Jabiru 3300
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: 650 and BSR chute

A fixed wing aircraft is in a different situation that a powered parachute when its *engine* fails. For those of us that fly over rough terrain there is often not a good place to put down.  

   

Some reasonable people have decided that fitting a BRS is a sound decision for a number of reasons. It is an argument that won’t be settled here.  

   

-- Craig  

       

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave G.

 Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 5:02 PM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: 650 and BSR chute  

  

  

     

I wonder if pilots with power parachute craft spend as much time wondering how to attach fixed wings to their aircraft in case the chute fails...   

    

   

    

Just wondering....   

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notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: 650 and BSR chute

Wing Bolts

 [quote]   ---

daveaustin2(at)primus.ca
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: 650 and BSR chute

No problems at all.  But the decision brings  in may other factors.  The chute uses up significant load carrying  capacity.  It increases fuel consumption and decreases range, decreases  safety factor of the design, climb speed, lowers manouvering speed, and Vne,  increases stall speed, landing speed, best glide speed etc..   

 So the question is:  do I want all those  things, with their inherent risk, or do I want the chute in case of engine or  airframe failure.

 Nobody ever said it was simple.

 And I respect everyones' decision.

 Dave Austin  601HDS -  912

    [quote][b]

lwinger

Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 229
Location: Tustin, CA

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject: 650 and BSR chute

I agree with you, Dave.  A chute changes all those things.  That's why I chose to lose 35+ pounds to offset the extra BRS weight.  Who knows, but that 35 pounds off of me and into my plane in the form of a chute just might save my life in either of two different ways: my health or my hide!  I'm happy with my solution, and you are right when you say it isn't a simple decision.

   

 Larry Winger

 On Sat, Aug 9, 2008 at 5:36 PM, Dave Austin <daveaustin2(at)primus.ca (daveaustin2(at)primus.ca)> wrote:

 [quote]  No problems at all.  But the decision brings in may other factors.  The chute uses up significant load carrying capacity.  It increases fuel consumption and decreases range, decreases safety factor of the design, climb speed, lowers manouvering speed, and Vne, increases stall speed, landing speed, best glide speed etc..  

  So the question is:  do I want all those things, with their inherent risk, or do I want the chute in case of engine or airframe failure.

 Nobody ever said it was simple.

 And I respect everyones' decision.

 Dave Austin  601HDS - 912

  



[b]

_________________
Larry Winger
Tustin, CA
Plans building 601XL/650 with Corvair
Installing fuel system
www.mykitlog.com/lwinger

daveaustin2(at)primus.ca
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:21 am Post subject: 650 and BSR chute

Sounds like a great way to go, Larry.

 Tailwinds.

 Dave Austin  601HDS - 912

 Do not archive

    [quote][b]

hills(at)sunflower.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:04 am Post subject: 650 and BSR chute

Howdy all  

   

A couple of years ago I was flying my 601 HDS when the new wood propeller broke off at about 6000 feet AGL. Yep, it was a bad  

situation all right. I was about 10 miles from the airport over a hilly wooded area, known for its rugged terrain and I really didn’t   

have any good place to land.  I glided back to the airport and made it to within 1 mile before landing in a bean field.  Luckily,  

we had a drought that year and the soy beans were very short and l landed with no problems (after I flew under the transmission lines)  

   

I use to make fun of people who put parachutes on their airplane, but when it happens to you they don’t seems so silly any more.  

Having a backup plan, when your other backup plans fail is worth the extra 35 pounds, at least it is for me.  For me flying would  

be more enjoyable now if I could relax in the air more, knowing that if all else fails, I still have one more thing I can do,,pull the lever.  

   

Roger  

      

         

  

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Winger

 Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 10:24 PM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: 650 and BSR chute  

  

       

I agree with you, Dave.  A chute changes all those things.  That's why I chose to lose 35+ pounds to offset the extra BRS weight.  Who knows, but that 35 pounds off of me and into my plane in the form of a chute just might save my life in either of two different ways: my health or my hide!  I'm happy with my solution, and you are right when you say it isn't a simple decision.  

    

   

    

Larry Winger  

    

On Sat, Aug 9, 2008 at 5:36 PM, Dave Austin <daveaustin2(at)primus.ca (daveaustin2(at)primus.ca)> wrote:      

No problems at all.  But the decision brings in may other factors.  The chute uses up significant load carrying capacity.  It increases fuel consumption and decreases range, decreases safety factor of the design, climb speed, lowers manouvering speed, and Vne, increases stall speed, landing speed, best glide speed etc..    

    

So the question is:  do I want all those things, with their inherent risk, or do I want the chute in case of engine or airframe failure.  

    

Nobody ever said it was simple.  

    

And I respect everyones' decision.  

    

Dave Austin  601HDS - 912  

    

   

  

  

  

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d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:40 am Post subject: 650 and BSR chute

Thanks, at least one person took it as humor. (for  the others, look up "observational humor/comedy and smile in the dictionary)  

  

 I'm actually in favour of BRS devices under certain  circumstances, but in spite of all the anecdotal "evidence" I have yet to see a  case where the pilot was undoubtedly saved by one. I've seen several films  of guys who deployed them and claim they were saved but they all appeared to be  flyable airframes where the pilot simply decided to stop flying the plane and  ride the chute down. In fact there was some talk when Diamond started installing  them that the airframe may be unsafe because of the number of deployments. In  the case of a true airframe failure where the craft cannot be brought inder  control I'm sure I'd like to have the device, provided I was actually able to  deploy it but I've not seen a case and I'd love to see some genuine  data on the chances. 

 [quote]   ---

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:46 am Post subject: 650 and BSR chute

Try looking at it this way: read through the NTSB reports of fatal accidents. Then ask yourself how many of those people would have survived if they had had a BRS.  

   

-- Craig  

       

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave G.

 Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 9:40 AM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: 650 and BSR chute  

  

  

     

Thanks, at least one person took it as humor. (for the others, look up "observational humor/comedy and smile in the dictionary)   

    

   

    

I'm actually in favour of BRS devices under certain circumstances, but in spite of all the anecdotal "evidence" I have yet to see a case where the pilot was undoubtedly saved by one. I've seen several films of guys who deployed them and claim they were saved but they all appeared to be flyable airframes where the pilot simply decided to stop flying the plane and ride the chute down. In fact there was some talk when Diamond started installing them that the airframe may be unsafe because of the number of deployments. In the case of a true airframe failure where the craft cannot be brought inder control I'm sure I'd like to have the device, provided I was actually able to deploy it but I've not seen a case and I'd love to see some genuine data on the chances.   

   	  Quote: 	
		      

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: Edward Moody II (dredmoody(at)cox.net)   

    

To: "Dave G." (d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico.ca)   

    

Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 11:03 AM  

    

Subject: Re: 650 and BSR chute  

    

   

    

Nice Steven Wright thought there Dave,  

    

   

    

No but I did see a guy on youtube who skydived (sky-dove?) with a set of Captain Fantastic wings strapped on (probably not the first strap-on he had employed in his life). Does that qualify?  

    

   

    

Ed  

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psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 9:33 am Post subject: 650 and BSR chute

Hi Craig,



I think you are asking the right question.



I have been reading accident reports for many years.  My sense is the 

fatal accidents tend to be controlled flight into terrain (CFIT), 

flight into bad weather, the occasional mid-air collision, and all 

sorts of really rare stuff like the guy who ran his huge war bird 

into an RV on the ground at Oshkosh last year slicing up the RV and 

occupants.  There are also a lot of landing stall/spins.  For the 

most part none of these situations would be helped by a ballistic 'chute.



Yes, there are some other accident types that the 'chute can help 

with.  That includes structure failures at high altitudes (in the 

traffic pattern doesn't really give enough time for the pilot to 

successfully deploy the 'chute), engine failures over water or other 

very difficult terrain, and some other really rare events.  I suppose 

the cases of accidental flight into IMC by non-instrument qualified 

pilots is another case, but this one would better be handled with a 

little training and regular practice.  A pilot should be able to do a 

180 and save the plane and occupants rather than destroying the plane 

but landing softly wherever the 'chute decides to do so.



I am not planning on a 'chute for my plane.  I don't have a problem 

with people who make the other choice.



Paul

XL getting close

do not archive





 	  Quote: 	
		  Try looking at it this way: read through the NTSB reports of fatal 

accidents. Then ask yourself how many of those people would have 

survived if they had had a BRS.



-- Craig

d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 9:40 am Post subject: 650 and BSR chute

Craig, how in the world am I supposed to guess how  many people WOULD survive anything? That's impossible. I can send you a whole  list of people who claim to have been saved, but that proves NOTHING and  guessing that this or that may have, might have, could have, is not the way the  NTSB operates so I'm guessing that if I read every report they ever published I  will never read a recommendation that installation of a BRS would have changed  the result. 

  

 Following the type of reasoning you've proposed,  ask yourself how many incidents might have been prevented if only the builder  had installed a 1000 lb lead block under his seat. 

  

 As I said, I'm in favor under certain  rare circumstances. 

  

 do not archive. 

 [quote]   ---

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