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Missing man formation
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jblake207(at)COMCAST.NET
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 5:12 pm Post subject: Missing man formation

Mark Fitzgerald, recent RPA member is looking for some immediate assistance.  He needs at least four airplanes to conduct a Missing man formation in the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Marietta, GA area.  The airfield is Stockmar airport (20GA) near Dobbins, AFB.  A distinguished business man from the Atlanta metro area, Earl Small, passed away and Marc is trying to arrange the formation for the family.  They expect well over a thousand people at the funeral.   

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />  

Mark needs this to happen tomorrow, Sunday 26 Oct.  They will cover expenses, so if you can help, contact Marc at 678-557-7193 or ifly4yall(at)aol.com (ifly4yall(at)aol.com). 

  

JB

  [quote][b]

HawkerPilot2015

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503

Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: Missing man formation

Was the guy a veteran?

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:00 am Post subject: Missing man formation

And an aviator?

Doc



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czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:06 am Post subject: Missing man formation

Who cares! It's a respect thing, not a military thing. I hope you were just

being curious as opposed to callus.



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czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:07 am Post subject: Missing man formation

If I was in Georgia, I would proudly show my respect to your friend.  

         

  

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jblake207(at)comcast.net

 Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 7:11 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Missing man formation  

  

     

Mark Fitzgerald, recent RPA member is looking for some immediate assistance.  He needs at least four airplanes to conduct a Missing man formation in the Marietta,  GA area.  The airfield is Stockmar airport (20GA) near Dobbins, AFB.  A distinguished business man from the Atlanta metro area, Earl Small, passed away and Marc is trying to arrange the formation for the family.  They expect well over a thousand people at the funeral.    

   

Mark needs this to happen tomorrow, Sunday 26 Oct.  They will cover expenses, so if you can help, contact Marc at 678-557-7193 or ifly4yall(at)aol.com (ifly4yall(at)aol.com).  

   

JB  

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HawkerPilot2015

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503

Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:56 am Post subject: Re: Missing man formation

 	  czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne wrote: 	
		  Who cares! It's a respect thing, not a military thing. I hope you were just

being curious as opposed to callus.



-- 	




Actually it IS a military thing! It is a tradition dating back to WWI. It is however NOT unique to the US and was in fact first supposedly used at the funeral held by the RAF for Richthofen (Red Baron). There is a growing trend to adopt military traditions and courtesies which in my opinion, diminish their historical and personal value. There are other ways to show respect while maintaining respect for others traditions. 



I mean absolutely no disrespect to Mr. Small's family or friends.

czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:05 pm Post subject: Missing man formation

So we can't count on your support?? I was in the military. I don't find it a

problem to do it for a fellow American.



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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:23 pm Post subject: Missing man formation

The following link is to a brief history of the Missing Man Formation, Fly

Past, or Honor Flight. http://www.answers.com/topic/missing-man-formation

The formation is traditionally flown for POW's, MiA's, a fallen aviator, and

dignitaries. It is a "military" thing but has been flown by the civilian

community to show respect for a fallen aviator or person of respect in the

community. I do not have a dog in this fight and mean no disrespect the

family or friends of the family. I hope the desires were met successfully by

the guys in the ATL area.

Doc



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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:17 pm Post subject: Missing man formation

Bill, I can understand your reaction in that it seems kind of callous to

be asking the question that Tim did when a person has just passed who's

loss will be felt by so many.  Having recently just lost my own Mother,

I am especially sensitive to something like that as well.  



That said, I am also a military veteran, and so is Tim Gagnon and so is

Doc.  That said, whether anyone else agrees with this statement or not,

the fact is that the Missing Man Formation IS a "military thing" as WELL

as a "respect thing" and it has usually been reserved for military

PILOTS alone, although over the years it has also morphed into being

performed for military aircrew as well.  



For example, while I do have some limited official time on log in A-6A's

and EA-6A's as "aircrew", I really do not think I rate having a missing

man formation at my funeral.  



As another example, while I agree that everyone rates respect in death,

that does not mean that they can be buried at Arlington National

Cemetery just because they would like to be.  They also do not get to

have a 21 gun salute, even if they would like it and everyone agrees it

would be touching and appreciated.  In the same token, a missing man

formation is reserved for those that qualify it, and it would certainly

lesson it's meaning if it were performed simply out of respect, and

without the military tradition from which it originated.  



Respectfully, 



Mark Bitterlich 

USMC Retired  

   



--

jblake207(at)COMCAST.NET
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:26 pm Post subject: Missing man formation

Please, no more replys on the subject.  Jon

  

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> 



 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, 

 MALS-14 64E" 

 

 Bill, I can understand your reaction in that it seems kind of callous to 

 be asking the question that Tim did when a person has just passed who's 

 loss will be felt by so many. Having recently just lost my own Mother, 

 I am especially sensitive to something like that as well. 

 

 That said, I am also a military veteran, and so is Tim Gagnon and so is 

 Doc. That said, whether anyone else agrees with this statement or not, 

 the fact is that the Missing Man Formation IS a "military thing" as WELL 

 as a "respect thing" and it has usually   been  reserved for military 

 PILOTS alone, although over the years it has also morphed into being 

 performed for military aircrew as well. 

 

 For example, while I do have some limited official time on log in A-6A's 

 and EA-6A's as "aircrew", I really do not think I rate having a missing 

 man formation at my funeral. 

 

 As another example, while I agree that everyone rates respect in death, 

 that does not mean that they can be buried at Arlington National 

 Cemetery just because they would like to be. They also do not get to 

 have a 21 gun salute, even if they would like it and everyone agrees it 

 would be touching and appreciated. In the same token, a missing man 

 formation is reserved for those that qualify it, and it would certainly 

 lesson it's meaning if it were performed simply out of respect, and 

 without the military tradition from which it originated. 

&gt  ; 
	


 > Respectfully, 

[quote] 

 Mark Bitterlich 

 USMC Retired 

 

 

 --

flushjohnson(at)charter.n
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject: Missing man formation

You have a wondarful way with words that most of us don't have.

---

dstroud(at)storm.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:34 pm Post subject: Missing man formation

Not only can he compose a sensitive and sensible message, his punctuation and 

spelling are almost entirely correct too. A rare trait indeed. 



David Stroud     Ottawa, Canada

Christavia C-FDWS

Fairchild 51 replica

under  construction C-FYXV



---

randmyak52(at)bellsouth.n
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: Missing man formation

Could it be that some of our members need a life? How much can be said about 

a missing man & a desert Flt. suit?

---

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject: Missing man formation

Worse yet are the people that actually take the time to read it.    



Mark  



--

czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:16 pm Post subject: Missing man formation

Okay then, I'll call the widow and let her know that we can't honor her

request because, ??.



I've moved on. You guys are wrong to not honor a request like this. But that

is your right.

--

czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: Missing man formation

I agree. However it is only a few airplanes flying in formation to say good by old friend. Ego!  

         

  

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jblake207(at)comcast.net

 Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 4:25 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com; yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Missing man formation  

  

     

Please, no more replys on the subject.  Jon  

    

   

  [quote]  

-------------- Original message -------------- 

 From: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> 

 

 > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, 

 > MALS-14 64E" 

 > 

 > Bill, I can understand your reaction in that it seems kind of callous to 

 > be asking the question that Tim did when a person has just passed who's 

 > loss will be felt by so many. Having recently just lost my own Mother, 

 > I am especially sensitive to something like that as well. 

 > 

 > That said, I am also a military veteran, and so is Tim Gagnon and so is 

 > Doc. That said, whether anyone else agrees with this statement or not, 

 > the fact is that the Missing Man Formation IS a "military thing" as WELL 

 > as a "respect thing" and it has usually been reserved for military 

 > PILOTS alone, although over the years it has also morphed into being 

 > performed for military aircrew as well. 

 > 

 > For example, while I do have some limited official time on log in A-6A's 

 > and EA-6A's as "aircrew", I really do not think I rate having a missing 

 > man formation at my funeral. 

 > 

 > As another example, while I agree that everyone rates respect in death, 

 > that does not mean that they can be buried at Arlington National 

 > Cemetery just because they would like to be. They also do not get to 

 > have a 21 gun salute, even if they would like it and everyone agrees it 

 > would be touching and appreciated. In the same token, a missing man 

 > formation is reserved for those that qualify it, and it would certainly 

 > lesson it's meaning if it were performed simply out of respect, and 

 > without the military tradition from which it originated. 

 > ; 

 > Respectfully, 

 > 

 > Mark Bitterlich 

 > USMC Retired 

 > 

 > 

 > --

buddairbum(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:30 pm Post subject: Missing man formation

If I were there, Bill, I'd do it. I've done it in Pitts and Stearmans and a

host of other birds. In my mind, we're paying respect to a fallen airman,

one of our own, military or otherwise. No one on this group is Robin Olds or

even in his, or  his peer group's class and we don't have the right to say

the missing-man is reserved for military only. It's the military's right to

feel that way, but, in my mind, we're all aviators, that comes first, and a

sign of respect is a sign of respect.

On 10/27/08 6:16 PM, "Bill Geipel" <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net> wrote:



[quote] 

 

 Okay then, I'll call the widow and let her know that we can't honor her

 request because, ??.

 

 I've moved on. You guys are wrong to not honor a request like this. But that

 is your right.

 

 

 --

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:28 pm Post subject: Missing man formation

Bill and Budd.  You are both Americans.  That gives both of you the

right as citizens of this country to do pretty much what you please

within the law of the land.  The law of the land says nothing about

performing a Missing Man formation flight; TFR's aside.  If you can get

enough people that think the same as you, not one of us that feels

otherwise is going to try and stop you.  



And folks, let's make something perfectly clear regarding this issue.

Our failure to support this agenda is not a mark of disrespect for the

deceased, his widow, his family or his friends.  It is NOT about

honoring "one of our own", a former civilian airman or for that matter a

truck driver.  It IS about taking a method of tribute first shown by one

military airman for another, and then later adopted by all branches of

the military in almost every country on this entire planet for their own

military airman and then applying it to a civilian pilot.



If you would like you can also get some more folks to come to his

funeral with AR-15's dressed in pseudo uniforms and fire a 21 gun

salute.  There is NO difference between the two issues.  NONE.  NOT ONE

BIT.   BOTH represent a sign of respect for the deceased and what he

gave for his country. Performing either or both is ... at least as far

as I know ... within the law.  



But when it is said and done, please do not try to lay any guilt trips

on those that think it is an improper use of a tradition that this

gentleman has not EARNED.  When I use the word "earned" I do so in

comparison with say those that have "earned" the Medal of Honor and

those of us that have not.  Those of us that have served in the

military, especially in combat, have each grasped what "earning"

something really means.  Some of us earned only a little.  Some of us

earned a lot.  ALL of us respect each other whether the contribution was

small, or the contribution was one's life.  So please excuse any of us

if we feel that no matter how good your intentions are, you are doing

something that is inappropriate and shows a lack of proper respect for

fallen military airman and as such we simply can not be a part of it. 



Lastly, I refuse to have a guilt trip put at my feet over this issue

even if my own contribution to this country has been small.  To feel

otherwise is to disrespect those that have given their ALL while serving

their country, and Mr. Geipel, I would rather face the widow than

dishonor the men and women that did that. It is your privilege to feel

that I am wrong.  Don't ever forget who's lives gave you the ability to

have that opinion and I hope you honor them in your own way if not this

one.  



Mark Bitterlich 

USMC Retired    



--

HawkerPilot2015

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: Missing man formation

 	  randmyak52(at)bellsouth.n wrote: 	
		  Could it be that some of our members need a life? How much can be said about 

a missing man & a desert Flt. suit?

--- 	




????

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:55 pm Post subject: Missing man formation

Gotta admit it beats the shit out of watching the big three or the Clinton

News Network while they try to serve up their  election cool-aid. As for the

missing man formation, I refer all to the URL Sent yesterday. It is a

military thing generally reserved for fallen aviators (read military that

fell while in performance of duty), medal of honor winners (read

potentates), Presidents or other state dignitaries. If I, as a serving

military aircrew, went out in the morning busted my ass (boxed) flying my

YAK or in some other act of buffoonery I would not get a missing man

formation flown by my squadron or any other squadron. That being no matter

how well I am or am not respected by my squadron, wing, state or civilian

community assuming there was any respect period. Now since we are talking

hypothetical here, if I went out tomorrow while flying a low level in our

ORI do an aileron roll at high alpha and low airspeed, depart the jet, and

auger into a 15-20 ft deep smoking hole, I would get a missing man formation

flown for my survivors (read wife and children). The point being the

aviators life was lost in the line of duty and warrants a missing man

formation. It is a military formation flown by military aircraft (generally

fighters...can't say I've ever seen a missing man flown by C-130 or C-5).

Now that would be impressive... for how long probably about as long as high

G (4) low altitude exceeding 60 degrees bank B-52 in Oregon terminating in

an impressive fireball. They (the aircrew) got a fly-by.

Anyway, its' a military thing created by the military generally for the

military. Even then, not every request for a missing man fly-by gets a

fly-by. Nothing personal, no disrespect  meant, intended, or implied to this

well respected civilian's survivors and friends.

May his soul rest in peace along with this subject.

Doc



--

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