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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:13 am Post subject: Emailing: DSC_1427-A[1].JPG

Here is another one. Is a form landing or is a TO? Is it safe?

Doc

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nigel(at)yakdisplay.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:33 am Post subject: Emailing: DSC_1427-A[1].JPG

If it's a form takeoff it's safe (lead sticks to ground longest to ensure

safe flying speed for whole formation), if it's a form landing, it's not...

normally on form landings, wing men make sure they touch down fractionally

BEFORE the lead....

--

talew(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:45 am Post subject: Emailing: DSC_1427-A[1].JPG

Looks like a TO. No flaps. 

# 2 is a little high.

Terry

---

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:56 am Post subject: Emailing: DSC_1427-A[1].JPG

It was a TO and we were using Rwy 09 at OSH that day.

  

 Pappy



One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks, and the things you love. Try 26ncid=emlcntaolcom00000001">AOL.com today!

  [quote][b]

talew(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:57 am Post subject: Emailing: DSC_1427-A[1].JPG

I forgot to mention that the TO is obviously safe. They are Red Star pilots 

and formation qualified.

Terry



---

kregg(at)balancemyprop.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:00 am Post subject: Emailing: DSC_1427-A[1].JPG

It can be safe in a Yak, not for sure about in a CJ.....LOL



Kregg



--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:58 pm Post subject: Emailing: DSC_1427-A[1].JPG

No, I disagree, it is not safe but not necessarily dangerous. 2 just took

off before One. 2 is now flight lead. 150, 100, or 80 foot wide runway or

not, 2 is airborne first and is now flight lead.

Now the reason it is not safe is the tendency of 2 (who is now airborne) to

look down at lead and attempt to slow to match lead's airspeed. 2

unconsciously can roll to the right or left as he/she is looking down on

lead depending on which side lead is on during the take off. Two is doing

this in an attempt to maintain position with lead. 

If 2 becomes airborne ahead of lead, he/she is now the new flight lead or 2

will find himself hanging closer to a stall than he/she really wants to be

as well as turning into lead as he/she attempts to stay in formation.

Passed these pictures around the squadron today, all pretty much said the

same thing. It is 2's responsibility to maintain station on lead and go

flying when lead goes flying. If lead aborts, 2 aborts. The flight usually

will abort as an element unless lead aborts at rotation and is taking the

barrier. If that happens, 2 goes flying and lead ends up in the barrier. Two

flies his jet and forgets about lead until he has established a positive

rate of climb and stabilized flight.

Doc 



--

Mozam

Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 85

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:01 am Post subject: Re: Emailing: DSC_1427-A[1].JPG

Guys,



I wouldn't get too excited over this photo.  



I am the left wingman on a formation acro team and have often (but not nearly enough times!) watched a video of one of our performances where it looked like we did pretty good.  We were all smiles.



Then somebody shows us some photos of our flight and we look like crap.  One (or more) of us is wide, sucked, misaligned, etc.  The photo just gives a picture of what your formation looks like for .000001 seconds, when in actuality, your formation looked pretty good in real life.  Yeah, somebody flinched, turned their head for a nanosecond, one guy lifted off 1/10 of a second early, etc.  But, in real time (or on a video) you just don't see these tiny glitches.



Let's get back to MMO, flight suits, missing man formations, guns and politics!

n21740(at)embarqmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:32 am Post subject: Emailing: DSC_1427-A[1].JPG

Thanks, Steve.



As the wingman in the photo I have to say, with absolute certainty, that we

were both (lead and I) or opposite sides of a very wide runway. I fly often

with this lead.



A picture is a thousand words. 990 of them are utter bullshit but the total

comes to a thousand for sure.



Phil 'Shortbus' Cogan

Nanchang CJ6A

N21740

 SB-Stamp

--

david(at)mcgirt.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:44 am Post subject: Emailing: DSC_1427-A[1].JPG

9 of the last 10 are why did they waste film on a CJ when there were Yaks to

be shot?



Haha..  Right on the point Steve



Cheers



David



On 11/20/08 9:33 AM, "Phil" <n21740(at)embarqmail.com> wrote:



[quote] 

 

 Thanks, Steve.

 

 As the wingman in the photo I have to say, with absolute certainty, that we

 were both (lead and I) or opposite sides of a very wide runway. I fly often

 with this lead.

 

 A picture is a thousand words. 990 of them are utter bullshit but the total

 comes to a thousand for sure.

 

 Phil 'Shortbus' Cogan

 Nanchang CJ6A

 N21740

  SB-Stamp

 --

N642K

Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 84

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:38 am Post subject: Re: Emailing: DSC_1427-A[1].JPG

Sorry Doc,  I gotta disagree BIG time with this statement;



If lead aborts, 2 aborts. The flight usually

will abort as an element unless lead aborts at rotation 



If lead aborts, the worse thing -2 can do is abort as well.  We agree that near rotation -2 goes flying.  My point is -2 ALWAYS goes flying. Near rotation is too subjective.  I dont want my wingman guessing about our speed and then making a decision.  That takes too long.  Make it easy for him.  If I abort after we apply takeoff power, you go flying.



Say lead aborts.  The first thing that happens is -2 blows past him/her. Thats for a high or slow speed abort! The last thing you expect from the lead is idle power and brakes.  You simply cannot react quickly enough.  Now lead not only has to deal with whatever issue caused the abort but now he/she has to figure out where  -2 is.  



Now I'm only aborting for something catastrophic, i.e., the engine coming apart or a major gear/directional control issue.  The best thing -2 can do is go flying and get off my runway, the same thing I'll do if he calls aborting as my wingman.



I don't know you. But your call sign says Air Force.  In the Navy we had a agreement in ALL formation take offs -NO SYMPATHETIC ABORTS!  Its too easy to turn a simple indicator problem into an ugly aircraft pile near the end of the runway.



Mike



Looking forward to your response.

czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:04 am Post subject: Emailing: DSC_1427-A[1].JPG

An important consideration regarding any gear, tire issues, We do not have

real good directional control when it is a gear issue. Hopefully the runway

is real wide, and 2 maintained an almost line abreast position so that he

can get ahead and out of the way. I have been through tire failures during

takeoff and landings in Yaks and L-29. You are at best, a passenger.



Just a thought. Fly it like you brief it.



--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:47 am Post subject: Emailing: DSC_1427-A[1].JPG

Mike,

You are absolutely correct. What I wrote was poorly worded for brevity. No

excuse.

I'm AF (ANG).

During the brief, Motherhood will have covered when and if the element will

abort together. Generally that is if the element is mission critical for

training and the abort occurs leaving the chocks, in EOR, or as the flight

starts TO roll. Everything is talked about on the radio if possible, but

maybe not. If lead breaks one third, halfway down the runway, at rotation or

at some point past loss of nose wheel steering, 2 is going flying to get out

of lead's way. In the TO roll if two still had nose wheel steering, it is a

judgment call. Nothing is embedded in concrete. We'll talk about it in the

debrief. You are correct, the last thing we need is for two a/c to be in the

barrier at the same time. 

Well since we don't have hooks and barriers, that one was a moot point. We

are talking about round motors and it is a judgment call but me personally,

if I'm two and lead has a bad day, aborts, then I'm going flying any way. We

do this for fun and there is nothing mission critical in what we do.

The point with the two pictures of the YAKs and the CJ's doing formation

T.O.s was that Two is now the flight lead. He rotated and went flying before

lead. For two now to stay in position with lead, he/she is going to have to

pull back on the power, look down at lead, and possibly unintentionally roll

into him while trying to maintain station. The other risk is since lead is

at Vrot not quite flying with two now flying two can pull too much power and

stall while trying to stay in position. Those were the safety issue I was

trying to point out. Two at that point needs to become lead and fly his jet.

Lead becomes two and joins on the new accidental flight lead. They can work

it out on departure, in the area or in debrief.

Talon, you are absolutely correct a picture is what is happening at that

nanosecond in time. But it is worth a 1000 words when it shows something of

interest. The "I fly with this lead all the time and we do it this way"

because we are comfortable with each other is not a warm fuzzy for me that

is. It is an invitation for bent metal and heartache. Sorry, I may be seeing

it all wrong and maybe it is me that is missing the point here. But, I just

had my DO in the office a few minutes ago and showed him the pictures. His

reaction was Holly SHIT! Nuff said does not matter how big the (at)#$%^& runway

is. We can go to the bar, drink beer, pat each other on the ass, scratch

each other's backs and this was still not recognized as poor technique and

not entirely safe. Two is trying to fly form on lead who is still on the

ground.

Here are two nanosecond shots of it being done right. Well the #2 Scooter is

just a little bit sucked since we are splitting hairs.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. 

Doc 

 

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aerobaticgirl(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:18 am Post subject: Emailing: DSC_1427-A[1].JPG

If the aborting aircraft calls over the radio "abort, abort, abort" then the other aircraft knows to stay in full blower and go, I can't imagine sacrificing aircraft control to stay in position...

--- On Wed, 11/19/08, Roger Kemp MD <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com> wrote:



[quote] From: Roger Kemp MD <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com>

 Subject: RE: Emailing: DSC_1427-A[1].JPG

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Wednesday, November 19, 2008, 10:57 PM

 

 <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com>

 

 No, I disagree, it is not safe but not necessarily

 dangerous. 2 just took

 off before One. 2 is now flight lead. 150, 100, or 80 foot

 wide runway or

 not, 2 is airborne first and is now flight lead.

 Now the reason it is not safe is the tendency of 2 (who is

 now airborne) to

 look down at lead and attempt to slow to match lead's

 airspeed. 2

 unconsciously can roll to the right or left as he/she is

 looking down on

 lead depending on which side lead is on during the take

 off. Two is doing

 this in an attempt to maintain position with lead. 

 If 2 becomes airborne ahead of lead, he/she is now the new

 flight lead or 2

 will find himself hanging closer to a stall than he/she

 really wants to be

 as well as turning into lead as he/she attempts to stay in

 formation.

 Passed these pictures around the squadron today, all pretty

 much said the

 same thing. It is 2's responsibility to maintain

 station on lead and go

 flying when lead goes flying. If lead aborts, 2 aborts. The

 flight usually

 will abort as an element unless lead aborts at rotation and

 is taking the

 barrier. If that happens, 2 goes flying and lead ends up in

 the barrier. Two

 flies his jet and forgets about lead until he has

 established a positive

 rate of climb and stabilized flight.

 Doc 

 

 --

Etienne Verhellen

Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 141
Location: Belgium

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:55 pm Post subject: Pics - Formation Take-off and Landing.

Just if you care to have a look ...



http://yakitiyakps.free.fr/Photos/picture.php?cat=36&image_id=1293

http://yakitiyakps.free.fr/Photos/picture.php?cat=36&image_id=1272



http://users.skynet.be/B747/photogallery/Etienne%20G-CBSS/NW14_127.jpg

http://users.skynet.be/B747/photogallery/Etienne%20G-CBSS/NW14_129.jpg



http://www.patricksaviation.com/photos/giel/13754/



http://myaviation.net/search/photo_search.php?id=01386259&size=large



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2e8f7_1ohQ



...... waiting for better weather to go flying.

_________________
Yak-50 Display Pilot - Airshows - Яковлев Як-50
Yak-52 training anywhere - FI(A) Aerobatic Instructor - Specialised Yak-52.
https://www.yakoteam.com/
https://www.yakovlevs.com/the-team/pilots-and-crew/

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:51 pm Post subject: Emailing: DSC_1427-A[1].JPG

Doc, I have flown a good deal of dissimilar aircraft formation with me

being in the aircraft with more performance and a much shorter take-off

roll than the other guy.  That said, I have made the mistake you are

talking about. In this case, a formation take-off with me in a YAK-50

and the other fellow flying lead in a souped up Cessna 180.  I am off

the deck long before he is, and what you are saying is exactly what

happened.  I am looking down on lead.  He is partially obscured by the

wing.  I have to pull to keep from over-taking him.  I slow to near

stall speed.  It was easy to pick up a little drift, since there was a

cross-wind situation.  I am looking at an airplane on the deck that is

not flying, yet I am in the air and have "keeping it flying" issues

happening.  It was bad ju-ju.  Lead, a retired USMC C-130 pilot and

ex-EA-6B ECMO chewed my ass and rightly so.  He was right, I was wrong,

it was a stupid thing to do.  Of course in this case a freeze frame

picture is hard to judge.  The situation for THEM might have been just

milliseconds.  I have no idea.  However, as a point of discussion for

formation flying between two aircraft, there is no question that it is a

bad idea to have your wingman rotate and start flying before lead.  I

say this as just a regular ole Pilot who does not have a FAST card from

the RPA, and could of course be wrong.  



Mark Bitterlich

 



--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:03 pm Post subject: Emailing: DSC_1427-A[1].JPG

Mark,

You are dead on in what your experience was and what your reaction was to

the fact you (2) are airborne and 1 is not. I talked with my DO today, my

safety officer, Squadron CC, OPS officer and 2 of the 4 flight leads then

took the picture to our 2 newly minted FNG's just out of F-16 RTU. They are

the consummate virgin wing men! The response was unanimous! They all said

they would chew 2's ass for his lack of SA and aircraft management.

Fuck them, they do not get it and they are going to kill somebody.

I am a "FAST" card carrier and it is BS because these clowns do not have a

clue. They are more worried about the patches they wear on their flight

suits and the wings they pin on. Incidentally, the vast majority did not

earn any of them but they look good and feel good patting each other on the

back and scatching each other's ass!

Let kill themselves thinking they are safe. They are not. I can attest to

that from a number of times that I have made the mistake of joining in a 4

ship with some of these clowns.

So, FUCK them if they can not admit that what they are seeing in that

nanosecond picture was not safe.

Doc



--

N642K

Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 84

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:28 pm Post subject: Re: Emailing: DSC_1427-A[1].JPG

There should be a rule about posting under the influence.....

czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:33 pm Post subject: Emailing: DSC_1427-A[1].JPG

WOW? Your right, if I were you I would turn in my FAST card and not ever fly

with these clowns. They don't deserve you.



--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:48 pm Post subject: Emailing: DSC_1427-A[1].JPG

Copy, 8 hours bottle to keyboard. *:>)) hic*^

Doc



--

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