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wlannon(at)persona.ca
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 Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:36 pm Post subject: Emailing: DSC_1427-A[1].JPG |
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Mark,
I was intending to stay out of this one but I have to say that you are
absolutely correct. As you noted the photo is a micro-second image that
generally could not tell the whole story. In this case however I believe it
does, whether it is a take-off or landing situation.
It is obviously a take-off and is clearly unsafe since #2 is airborne before
the lead with all the difficulties and potential dangers you have noted.
Very bad form.
If it were a landing situation it would be far worse than bad form and I
would remind everyone of the recent P51 disaster at Oshkosh.
Some may say this is different as the Mustangs were not in formation but the
photo of the CJ's (for that micro second at least) shows two aircraft in
close proximity but NOT in controlled formation.
In a formation take-off formation flight begins when lead nods his head and
releases the brakes.
The wingman's job from that moment is; 1. Maintain wing tip clearance in
the event that lead has to abort. 2. Maintain position during the take-off
roll with judicious use of power to lift off after the lead. 3. Use leads
cue for gear (and flap if used) retraction. 4. Maintain position.
The formation landing begins and ends with #4 above. Gear and flap extension
of course on the leads signal and maintain adequate wingtip clearance.
Other than that the mission is to fly formation and maintain the correct
position. Touchdown will be before the lead You will have done this
without looking at the runway. That is the leads job.
Walt
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:32 am Post subject: Emailing: DSC_1427-A[1].JPG |
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A legitimate question - if this were a check ride for a FAST Wing card with an IP in the back seat of #2, would the IP pass the wing candidate?
Dennis
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Mozam
Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 85
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Emailing: DSC_1427-A[1].JPG |
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Hi Dennis,
As a FAST Check Pilot I'll take a stab at your question.
IMHO, the answer is, "It depends".
Since all we have is a single photo that shows 1/100 of a second of the takeoff, I think we need to know other info, such as:
-Did Lead lift off at 110 mph? If so, I doubt many wingman would still be on the ground with him.
-Did Lead lift off and then settle back on the runway (just as the photo was shot)?
-Is #2 really overlapping wings like the photo looks? Or, is it just an illusion caused by the angle the photo is taken and he really had normal wingtip clearance?
I could think of a hundred more questions, but I think you get my point. One single photo, that leaves many questions unanswered, cannot determine whether you pass your check or not.
Cheers,
Steve Dalton
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:34 pm Post subject: Emailing: DSC_1427-A[1].JPG |
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With all due respect, base your decision on what you see in the picture which is the only known fact you have. What is obvious regardless of what nanosecond it was taken, is 2 is off the ground before lead. That is all we know for certain.
Dennis
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:04 pm Post subject: Emailing: DSC_1427-A[1].JPG |
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In a message dated 11/21/2008 6:34:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net writes:
I'd have to say the same as Mozam and add one or two thoughts. I happen to be little familiar with what happened up there in OSH. That particular photo is of a takeoff not a landing. Both aircraft have their flap up, SOP for CJ-6s. Also all landings performed during the OSH show were single ship, no element landings were briefed for any of the sorties flown and none were made during the show.
This element takeoff was on rwy 9. AAMOF all takeoffs at OSH were done on Rwy 9 or 27. Rwy 9/27 is 150' wide. Using a standard wingspan for the CJ, that leave about 44' between wing tips. A very comfortable margin.
This element during all our show performances, was toward the back of the pack. Anyone who has been there know that turbulence from the proceeding aircraft is a reality though out your entire takeoff. It is not uncommon to get a premature lift off because of it. I believe that is pretty evident even in this photo because the lead aircraft, has a slight bank while one wheel is still on the ground. Now just because his wing is up does not mean he is turning toward 2. You even can just discern he is imputing a little right rudder. It just that his wing is up. More evidence of turbulence.
To me its just a picture. If any thing it looks like #2 is sucked at that point. But was he sucked during the earlier part of the TO? We don't know. Was he sucked later? It does not really matter because once airborne, 2 will move to the bearing line anyway.
Photographs are notorious for being unable to show depth perception. The only way a photo could show proper spacing between two aircraft is if the photo were taken dead abeam (at 90 degrees). Even than you could not determined wing tip clearance.
To compare us to F-16 jocks is a little unfair. F-16s have extremely high wing loadings and most likely do not bobble (if at all) around much though the turbulence. I am pretty sure Mozam will concur that the way our airplanes reacted to turbulence compared to the F-16 is like a thistle in a brisk wind.
My question is would you have wanted one of your entire flight checks based on a nanosecond photo by an examiner? Of course not. As an examiner you make your judgement on the entire skill of the individual. That picture says nothing of the person total skill level. Nothing at all. Shit happens.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
[quote] With all due respect, base your decision on what you see in the picture which is the only known fact you have. What is obvious regardless of what nanosecond it was taken, is 2 is off the ground before lead. That is all we know for certain.
Dennis
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Mozam
Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 85
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:08 pm Post subject: Re: Emailing: DSC_1427-A[1].JPG |
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Dennis,
With all due respect to you as well:
Would you be willing to take your next checkride based solely on one single photo of your flight? And you don't get to pick the photographer or the photo!
I sense there is some underlying angst with this photo (or the individuals involved?), but have no clue what it is.
If the worst thing #2 does is lift off 1/10 of a second before Lead, who delayed his liftoff until almost 100 mph, I would have a hard time faulting the guy. I'm not saying that was the case in the photo - just that it is one possibility. I just can't slam a guy based on this one single photo.
Why are some of you guys so spooled up about this photo - I just don't get it.
-Steve
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject: Emailing: DSC_1427-A[1].JPG |
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I do understand yours and Pappy's position. No more from me on the subject.
Dennis
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bpx2horn(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject: Emailing: DSC_1427-A[1].JPG |
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Maybe lead was airborne a nano second before 2 and the hit turbulence then hit the deck, all the while 2 was in positon just until lead took a bad hit of air and bounced back onto to the ground. Or maybe lead avoided a bird and ducked under it too bad those damn wingmen can't stay in postion.
I've been a damn wingman that can't always stay in positon and both #3 and I have discussed the odd phenomon that has occurred where we want to fly before lead while easily maintaining position justed stacked a foot high.
Paul Hornick
Left Wing
Aerostars
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