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Engine choice- O-200 or EJ 22
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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject: Engine choice- O-200 or EJ 22

Chuck,



Don't be sorry.  Welcome.  Lots of informantion and lots of opinion.



Lowell Fitt

Cameron Park, CA

Model IV-1200 R-912 UL

Currently focusing on the Left Wing, Rudder Gap Seal Cuffs and Landing Gear 

Fairing

---

Cmflyboy12(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:16 pm Post subject: Engine choice- O-200 or EJ 22

Ok, I,m restoring a 108-3 flying station wagon with a 165 frankin on  it stinson that is



One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks, and the things you lovm40vanity%26ncid=emlcntaolcom00000001">AOL.com today![/b]

  [quote][b]

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 5:48 am Post subject: Engine choice- O-200 or EJ 22

Welcome aboard Chuck. Pretty flying up in West virginia !

                                                        Dick Maddux

                                                        Fox 4-1200

                                                        Pensacola,Fl



Check out smokin' hot deals on laptops, desktops and more from Dell.  Shop Deals

  [quote][b]

Cmflyboy12(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:40 am Post subject: Engine choice- O-200 or EJ 22

thanks,yes it is. I got the chance to fly around Fl, during the SUN&FUN  air show and it was a exper.



One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks, and the things=aolcom40vanity%26ncid=emlcntaolcom00000001">AOL.com today![/b]

  [quote][b]

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:52 am Post subject: Engine choice- O-200 or EJ 22

<<Snip>>



Hi

Subaru engine was created for cars.Continental O200 for airplanes.



I'm not so sure the above statement is 100% accurate.



There is no doubt the Continental is an aircraft engine...designed and built for aircraft.  They are very light and reasonably easy to service.  They have redundancy built in up the yin yang.



The Subaru engine as I read it was an aircraft engine that was modified for use in automobiles because of its reliability in Japanese war planes.  Because it is a more modern design it is a bit more complex.  Because it was modified to work in cars it is a bit heavier.  Cars don't need redundancy or mags.  All that can be  undone, including the dual ignition and magneto drives.  What you end up with is a reasonably high tech, reliable, aircraft engine... with a re-drive.  



Nothing is perfect but the differences are minimal.



For ease of getting your toes back off the ground and into the sky, I figure it will be a lot faster, possibly cheaper to service the Conti.



Toss a coin   (Only joking)

Noel Loveys

AME Intern, RPP

Kitfox III-A, 912 almost installed

Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:02 am Post subject: Engine choice- O-200 or EJ 22

Lynn in my younger days I drove more junkyard specials than I can honestly

remember.  Four cylinder and six cylinder cars that only occasionally ran on

all their cylinders was the order of the day.  The funny thing is I can't

ever remember not getting where I wanted to go because of a breakdown on one

of those old beaters.  All the problems I had were actually on newer more

expensive cars I owned.



I also have a fair bit of experience with outboard engines.  Until recently

they were all multiple cylinder two stroke units.  With them when a cylinder

refused to fire you might make it home on with a cylinder out but don't

count on it.  Also when a two stroke cylinder goes dead you can count on

using a lot more gas to get home if the engine continues to run.



All the engine problems I've had with two stroke engines involved lack of

maintenance in replacing spark plugs except for the time I put a connecting

rod through a Mercury four cylinder 50 Hp two stroke outboard.  That time I

was lucky the mate to it continued to operate perfectly.

Noel Loveys

AME Intern, RPP

Kitfox III-A, 912 almost installed

Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats





--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:05 am Post subject: Engine choice- O-200 or EJ 22

Sorry Lynn I misread your post..

Corvair engines can also swap out a cylinder if needed...  if you can find

one.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:45 am Post subject: Engine choice- O-200 or EJ 22

I think someone already addressed this myth. The subie engine is no more 

related to aircraft than the corvair or original VW engine is. These legends 

end up being repeated until they become accepted.

I keep on hearing how my BMW M/C engine is aircraft derived and that also is 

false. Max Friz designed aircraft engines (inline) but designed the M/C 

engine for that purpose. Nor is the BMW logo intended to look like a prop, a 

legend that is very widely accepted even by many of their own dealers.



Car and for that matter M/C engines are intended to deliver on average about 

30 % of their rated max. power and many go their entire lives never putting 

out 100 %. Aircraft engines OTOH always are called on to deliver 100% and 

seldom below 55%. That difference alone would cause a designer to make 

vastly different motors even if weight and longevity and reliability were 

not so different.



As far as the Subie engine coming from an aircraft, it doesn't seem likely 

to me as all the engines I ever saw from japanese aircraft were inline or 

radial copies of known engines and of a size and power far exceeding 

anything a small car would require.



Not trying to start an arguement, and I'm sure the Subie engine and many 

other car motors can be modified to make acceptable power for experimental 

aircraft. But it's my opinion that they are not in any instance returning to 

their roots.



KF IV, 582

do not archive



---

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:17 am Post subject: Engine choice- O-200 or EJ 22

Dave sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



The subie engine is no more related to aircraft than the corvair or 

original VW engine is. These legends end up being repeated until 

they become accepted.


	


Yeah, you're probably right, Dave.  I'm sure that FHI (which started 

out as The Aircraft Research Laboratory in 1917 and by 1931 was 

reorganized as Nakajima Aircraft Company, Ltd and soon became the 

primary manufacturer of aircraft for Japan during World War II) hired 

a bunch of guys who had never heard of airplanes to design their line 

of automobile engines.



Disclaimers:

  - Just kidding

  - Who cares, the lineage has nothing to do with the here & now

  - EVERYTHING in aviation is a compromise--there is no right solution 

for everyone.  Anyone who tells you there is, is wrong.



Mike G.

N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

Phoenix, AZ

aerobatics(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:47 am Post subject: Engine choice- O-200 or EJ 22

this is fun.... ok ... can we agree that a turboprop is generally more 

reliable than a piston....   and in the turbo prop world,  the PT6  is 

conciderd the most reliable of all turboprops  that should make it very 

reliable  and it is...



but its heritage.... is ground based for the oil business...   I could 

be wrong  but that's my understanding of the pt6  so lineage means?  ))



Good is good....



maybe somebody will prove me wrong re the PT6  but I belive it to be 

true...



gotta go fly my 582 BH kF   sun is out!



Dave

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 12:15 pm Post subject: Engine choice- O-200 or EJ 22

---

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject: Engine choice- O-200 or EJ 22

Dang it's hard to kill a topic that has wandered off in the weeds.



Mike G.

N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

Phoenix, AZ

[quote]

---

paul(at)eucleides.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 1:04 pm Post subject: Engine choice- O-200 or EJ 22

On Sun, November 23, 2008 11:46 am, aerobatics(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 this is fun.... ok ... can we agree that a turboprop is generally more

 reliable than a piston....


	


It's possibly a matter of semantics. It is true that the design life and functional

life (TBO) is much higher for the turbine, turbojet or turboprop than for a piston

engine. That doesn't imply anything to me about reliability. In other words, if you

have engine A with a TBO of X hours and engine B with a TBO of 10X hours, can you say

which one is more reliable? I don't think so.



-- 

Paul A. Franz

Aircraft/Engine/Prop - Merlin GT/Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:05 pm Post subject: Engine choice- O-200 or EJ 22

Because one of the factors in determining TBO is reliability I think you are

safe in inferring the turbine is more reliable all other things being

equal...  Some of those things are over revving the engine, and hot

starts...  either of those will destroy the turbine in seconds.  And the

effects are cumulative so have to be logged.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: Re: Engine choice- O-200 or EJ 22

It makes absolutely no difference if the Subaru was originally designed as an airplane engine 50 year ago or not.   The reality is now that the Subuaru that the poster is thinking about using in his Kitfox is a CAR engine, designed and built to run in a car, not an airplane.   Even IF it were true that some engines started life in aviation 50 years ago, the aviation engineering that were put into the engine would have long ago been taken out by an auto manufacturer.   The modern Subaru engine parts were designed to be run in a car at around 20 % power for long periods, not at the long 100 % climbs and 70 % cruise power used in an airplane.



Bottom line, the history of the engine does not mean anything, the modern design is for a car, and you will have to do a lot of engineering to make it work at all in a plane, and chances are it will still probably never be reliable.  Many people with a lot more talent and engineering resources than you have tried to make these engines reliable for aviation use and failed.  It would be best to learn from their experiences.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

paul(at)eucleides.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:16 pm Post subject: Engine choice- O-200 or EJ 22

On Tue, November 25, 2008 10:08 am, JetPilot wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 The modern Subaru engine parts

 were designed to be run in a car at around 20 % power for long periods, not at the

 long 100 % climbs and 70 % cruise power used in an airplane.


	


In the case of the EJ22 rated at 130 HP maximum (at) sea level, then the cruise power

setting in the car is probably less than 10% of the maximum, since the car takes

around 12 HP to push it 60 mph on the level. But the engines in these cars last under

less that ideal operation with perhaps thousands of starts and stops and at low oil

temperature for 200,000 miles or more. That's probably more than 4000 hours of

operation since the average speed over the life is less than 50 mph.



In an airplane, the engine is nearly 100% of the time operated at ideal operating

temperature with preferred lubrication. It will more often be operated at 100% power

(sea level, WOT) and will be set to cruise at 65% to 80%. The engine in aircraft usage

will likely never be exposed to abuse such as over speed (operation in yellow and past

redline), and is equipped with more instrumentation to insure safe operation such as

cyl head temperature and EGT instrumentation. The operator will always observe the

tachometer whereas in a car, there is far more likelihood of abuse such as fouled air

cleaners, passing recommended oil change intervals limits and the over speeding the

engine.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Bottom line, the history of the engine does not mean anything, the modern design is

 for a car, and you will have to do a lot of engineering to make it work at all in a

 plane, and chances are it will still probably never be reliable.


	


I believe, that there is some debate, at least that I perceive in what reliability

means in terms of TBO. There are many factors that contribute to reliability including

redundancy and the design life of the required gear reduction units.



 	  Quote: 	
		    Many people with a

 lot more talent and engineering resources than you have tried to make these engines

 reliable for aviation use and failed.  It would be best to learn from their

 experiences.


	


The subject engine is the EJ22 but I think that given the success of a number of EA81

conversions that a 1000 hour TBO is realistic and that given electrical and fuel

system redundancies, the engine is, in fact, suitable for use in aircraft. There are

many installations where these engines have been used that have resulted in a

significant cost savings over Certified Aircraft Engines.



I would acknowledge that the redrives (reduction units) have the least known about

their reliability since the number built and the total number of hours of operation is

far less than for the engine.



Your point is well taken that you are assuming some design responsibility when

choosing this engine, especially as to creating reliable redundancies and the

selection of the redrive.



-- 

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

PAF Consulting Engineers

Office 425.440.9505

Cell 425.241.1618

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:49 am Post subject: Engine choice- O-200 or EJ 22

You have to admit there are a lot of them flying though...  Subies, Mazda

Wankels and even Suzuki/Geo engines.  I think I draw the line when I see B&S

engines but they are being tried too.



All aircraft engines are to an extent derated.  That is why you get less

than 500 hp from a 500ci turbocharged engine.  If I was going to use a Subie

I'd derate it by a good percentage and limit the rpm to no more than 5000.

You are right on the fact the engines are designed to be used in cars but

that particular application has to be just about the most punishing

application going.  As you no doubt know highway driving is a lot easier on

a car than around town.  To me is comes down to this what do I like better

1920's design and engineering... not to mention in some cases rebuilt parts

or Millenium engineering and production...  except for the redundancy aspect

that's a no brainer.  For the type of fluying most people do I think the

latter is not only sufficient but a good choice. However if you are the

pilot who ventures deep into the boonies then the redundancy of earlier

engines is the way to go.



That's why I could never suggest the use of automotive engines in certified

planes. 



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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