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Dead stick practice
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Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 5:39 pm Post subject: Dead stick practice

On Thu, December 18, 2008 3:28 pm, Lowell Fitt wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Mike,



 I'm still trying to figure you out.  For a young buck with a few hours in

 your log book you sure have strong opinions you like to put out as FACTS.  I

 can respect opinions, but personal attacks go beyond my personal ability to

 keep quiet.  Frankly, I think the "poor judgement" is all yours in your

 posting style.  I'd sure like to see you in a face to face discussions with

 some of the folks you like to diss.  I can see it now, you sitting there

 with your 300 hours in a grown up ultralight facing a real pilot - 18,000

 hours in everything from Super Cubs and Pitts s2bs to B-777s, instructed in

 the military and for the airlines (Would you believe in real jets),

 currently a CFI and you telling him about airplanes


	


Well Lowell, one thing about a written dialog like this medium is that there is little

shown in the way of demeanor and intonation normally associated with face to face

speech. Another thing, you are judged by what your say, not your resume. If someone

gets offended, or even scolded too harshly, they might leave the dialog (KF List).



Mike took the time to write up clearly his view and I thought he had some points that

were well taken. I've learned that flying technique really varies in this group. I've

also thought that the instruction that people have relayed doesn't have the same

emphasis that I had. For example, I was taught that consistency was an important part

of safety. That is, always flying the same landing pattern no matter where you're

making a landing and following the same checklists and preferred procedures. I was

taught that power to idle on every landing was the safest way. You use one or two

notches of flaps so you can adjust the touchdown point on final with varying wind and

crosswind conditions and you can select whether or not you slip to correct the crab

angle just before touchdown or you can slip the approach to keep the nose lined up

with the centerline the whole way down final. The latter is more comfortable for

passengers as is adding power to grease the touchdown, but that is not safer.



Anyway, I found the postings interesting and contributory.

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:50 pm Post subject: Dead stick practice

Re Mike's posting. 

I've read it a couple of times now and to be honest I just found it to be rude. 

Sometimes I wish people would take the time to just read their responses before posting them and try to understand how it might  be interpreted by others. 

However in Mike's posting calling somebody "dishonest" is a little bit hard to misinterpret. 

Gary 

Kitfox Classic 4 Jab 2200

 Gary Algate

 SMC, Exploration

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.

 “This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have made a contribution to [url=Arial]UNICEF Australia[/url]. We wish you a safe and happy Christmas". 

"Paul Franz - Merlin GT" <paul(at)eucleides.com> 

Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

19/12/2008 12:18 PM 

Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com     To

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com   cc

    Subject

 Re: Re: Dead stick practice 

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" <paul(at)eucleides.com>

 On Thu, December 18, 2008 3:28 pm, Lowell Fitt wrote:

 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>

 >

 > Mike,

 >

 > I'm still trying to figure you out.  For a young buck with a few hours in

 > your log book you sure have strong opinions you like to put out as FACTS.  I

 > can respect opinions, but personal attacks go beyond my personal ability to

 > keep quiet.  Frankly, I think the "poor judgement" is all yours in your

 > posting style.  I'd sure like to see you in a face to face discussions with

 > some of the folks you like to diss.  I can see it now, you sitting there

 > with your 300 hours in a grown up ultralight facing a real pilot - 18,000

 > hours in everything from Super Cubs and Pitts s2bs to B-777s, instructed in

 > the military and for the airlines (Would you believe in real jets),

 > currently a CFI and you telling him about airplanes

 Well Lowell, one thing about a written dialog like this medium is that there is little

 shown in the way of demeanor and intonation normally associated with face to face

 speech. Another thing, you are judged by what your say, not your resume. If someone

 gets offended, or even scolded too harshly, they might leave the dialog (KF List).

 Mike took the time to write up clearly his view and I thought he had some points that

 were well taken. I've learned that flying technique really varies in this group. I've

 also thought that the instruction that people have relayed doesn't have the same

 emphasis that I had. For example, I was taught that consistency was an important part

 of safety. That is, always flying the same landing pattern no matter where you're

 making a landing and following the same checklists and preferred procedures. I was

 taught that power to idle on every landing was the safest way. You use one or two

 notches of flaps so you can adjust the touchdown point on final with varying wind and

 crosswind conditions and you can select whether or not you slip to correct the crab

 angle just before touchdown or you can slip the approach to keep the nose lined up

 with the centerline the whole way down final. The latter is more comfortable for

 passengers as is adding power to grease the touchdown, but that is not safer.

 Anyway, I found the postings interesting and contributory.

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: Dead stick practice

 	  lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net wrote: 	
		  Mike,



I'm still trying to figure you out.  For a young buck with a few hours in 

your log book you sure have strong opinions you like to put out as FACTS.  I 

can respect opinions, but personal attacks go beyond my personal ability to 

keep quiet.  Frankly, I think the "poor judgement" is all yours in your 

posting style.  I'd sure like to see you in a face to face discussions with 

some of the folks you like to diss.  I can see it now, you sitting there 

with your 300 hours in a grown up ultralight facing a real pilot - 18,000 

hours in everything from Super Cubs and Pitts s2bs to B-777s, instructed in 

the military and for the airlines (Would you believe in real jets), 

currently a CFI and you telling him about airplanes



Sheesh



Lowell



do not archive

--- 	




Lowell,



Just read below and I think it may help you / all of us.



One day, long, long ago there was this Pilot who,   surprisingly ........... was not full of crap.... 

 

But it was a long time ago.... And it was just one day. 

 The End

sorry, couldn't resist, I will try harder to restrain myself in the future.

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: Dead stick practice

 	  Dick Maddux wrote: 	
		  

The military and flight schools have long given up actual dead stick landings as too many aircraft were destroyed. 

	




Dick,



The word dishonest was not the correct word to use, I was not trying to question your ethics.  The point I was trying to make was that yours was not a fair comparison, and that is the terminology I should have used.  I apologize for the misunderstanding it caused.   This seems to have eclipsed the very important issue of practicing actual engine out landings.  The engine failure statistics for experimental aircraft are very high, and it is even more important for us to be prepared for this emergency than even Cessna and other GA pilots.



The military flight schools have long given up on actual dead stick landings because the modern military except for a few rare exceptions, fly turbine engined airplanes.  Turbine engine failures are extremely rare, and shutting down the engines in flight in a turbine powered airplane in flight is so dangerous that it is not an acceptable or practical training method.   



Practicing deadstick landings in Kitfox aircraft does not in any compare to practicing deadstick landings in high performance military aircraft.  Kitfox airplanes fly very well with no engine, and have no problem flying all the way to touchdown without power.   There is little difference between landing a Kitfox deadstick, and landing a sailplane.  The kitfox and the sailplane have about the same landing speeds, and both airplanes fly and land just fine with no power.   At least in the Kitfox, you do have the option of restarting the engine if you want to.  Sailplane pilots do this every day with NO options like this.



It is very easy to say, " I saw a guy crash practicing deadstick landings, and have come to the conclusion that it is a bad idea."  The more intelligent and thoughtful thing to do would be to look further into the issue, and consider how many airplanes each year are needlessly are crashed, and how many people are hurt in experimental airplanes because pilots were NOT trained adequately, and not prepared for the day his engine quit.  I have read of many crashes in our class of airplanes because the pilot was not prepared for an engine failure.   Training accidents happen, that does not mean we should stop training.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:00 pm Post subject: Dead stick practice

Mike brings up an interesting issue - engine failures in experimantal 

airplanes.  There are lots of airplanes in this catagory and lots of engine 

types.  Since this a Kitfox based forum - avid also and similar types,  I 

would like to pose the question:



How many engine outs resulting in forced landings have each of us had and 

how many are we aware of with friends or local folks.   To keep it relevant, 

these have to be airplanes that have an Experimental Airworthiness 

Certificate - not ultralights or powered parachutes, etc.



To begin, I can think of one, mine but technically the engine never quit.  I 

think I can recall one other from the list, but to avoid duplications of the 

data, I will wait for that person to chime in if he wants to.



As in the aircraft Models, landing gear and engine survey of times past, I 

would be willing to spreadsheet the data and make it available to the list.



My experience both personal and hearsay, can not justify Mikes statement 

that "the engine failure statistics for experimantal airplanes are very 

high".



Lowell

---

n981ms(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:26 am Post subject: Dead stick practice

Continental IO240 450 hours.  So far no engine failure.  Now that I have said it out loud I have my fingers crossed.



Maxwell Duke

S6/TD/IO240

Dublin, GA



--- On Sat, 12/20/08, Lowell Fitt <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

 [quote]From: Lowell Fitt <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>

Subject: Re: Re: Dead stick practice

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Saturday, December 20, 2008, 1:52 AM



[quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>  Mike brings up an interesting issue - engine failures in experimantal airplanes.  There are lots of airplanes in this catagory and lots of engine types.  Since this a Kitfox based forum - avid also and similar types,  I would like to pose the question:  How many engine outs resulting in forced landings have each of us had and how many are we aware of with friends or local folks.   To keep it relevant, these have to be airplanes that have an Experimental Airworthiness Certificate - not ultralights or powered parachutes, etc.  To begin, I can think of one, mine but technically the engine never quit.  I think I can recall one other from the list, but to avoid duplications of the data, I will wait for that person to chime in if he wants to.  As in the aircraft Models, landing gear and engine survey of times past, I would be willing to spreadsheet the data and make it available to the list.  My experience both personal and hearsay, can not justify Mikes statement that "the engine failure statistics for experimantal airplanes are very high".  Lowell   ---

jcrowder(at)lpbroadband.n
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:32 am Post subject: Dead stick practice

To be meaningful as to the engine, one would need to rule out fuel issues

which are not related to engine type.  There may be other non engine related

reason, also.



Jim Crowder



[quote] --

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:16 am Post subject: Dead stick practice

My ears just started to burn...was somebody talking about me? : )  If  

not, here goes anyway....



I had an engine break last August which resulted in a forced landing  

with not a scratch...I'll take that back. The wheat stubble scratched  

the bottoms of my wheelpants...to the plane. This was a Jabiru 2200  

engine, Kitfox IV taildragger.



I have a friend who was flying his Cygnet (taildragger w/Exp. Air.  

Cert.) with VW power, and he was forced to land...also in a harvested  

wheatfield...when his engine puked. No damage to his plane.



Our theme song has now become a modification of the old song  

"Greenfields" by the Brothers Four. "Once there were *wheatfields*  

kissed by the sun..."

If anybody knows these lyrics, and continues further into the song,  

when you get to the part where they say " We were the lovers who  

strolled through green fields."...forget about it...ain't gonna  

happen...not in my lifetime! : )



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis





On Dec 20, 2008, at 1:52 AM, Lowell Fitt wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>



 Mike brings up an interesting issue - engine failures in  

 experimantal airplanes.  There are lots of airplanes in this  

 catagory and lots of engine types.  Since this a Kitfox based forum  

 - avid also and similar types,  I would like to pose the question:



 How many engine outs resulting in forced landings have each of us  

 had and how many are we aware of with friends or local folks.   To  

 keep it relevant, these have to be airplanes that have an  

 Experimental Airworthiness Certificate - not ultralights or powered  

 parachutes, etc.



 To begin, I can think of one, mine but technically the engine never  

 quit.  I think I can recall one other from the list, but to avoid  

 duplications of the data, I will wait for that person to chime in  

 if he wants to.



 As in the aircraft Models, landing gear and engine survey of times  

 past, I would be willing to spreadsheet the data and make it  

 available to the list.



 My experience both personal and hearsay, can not justify Mikes  

 statement that "the engine failure statistics for experimantal  

 airplanes are very high".



 Lowell

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:36 am Post subject: Dead stick practice

Leonard C You better not! I'm going to use that quote. You can sustitute for "pilot" with just about any group you want. And C I hope to get to Seldotna to buy you a beer to pay you for that quote.

 Do not archive

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford C IL



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: Dead stick practice

 From: akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com

 Date: Fri C 19 Dec 2008 18:03:09 -0800

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com>

 

 

 lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net wrote:

 > Mike C

 > 

 > I'm still trying to figure you out. For a young buck with a few hours in 

 > your log book you sure have strong opinions you like to put out as FACTS. I 

 > can respect opinions C but personal attacks go beyond my personal ability to 

 > keep quiet. Frankly C I think the "poor judgement" is all yours in your 

 > posting style. I'd sure like to see you in a face to face discussions with 

 > some of the folks you like to diss. I can see it now C you sitting there 

 > with your 300 hours in a grown up ultralight facing a real pilot - 18 C000 

 > hours in everything from Super Cubs and Pitts s2bs to B-777s C instructed in 

 > the military and for the airlines (Would you believe in real jets) C 

 > currently a CFI and you telling him about airplanes

 > 

 > Sheesh

 > 

 > Lowell

 > 

 > do not archive

 > ---

 

 

 Lowell C

 

 Just read below and I think it may help you / all of us.

 

 One day C long C long ago there was this Pilot who C surprisingly ........... was not full of crap.... 

 

 But it was a long time ago.... And it was just one day. 

 The End

 

 

 sorry C couldn't resist C I will try harder to restrain myself in the future.

 

 --------

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

 Leonard Perry

 Soldotna AK

 Avid &quot;C&quot; / Mk IV 

 582 IVO IFA

 Full Lotus 1260

 As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.

 

 hander outer of humorless darwin awards

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220229#220229

 

 

&gt==============
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 


	


  [quote][b]

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:40 am Post subject: Dead stick practice

At 10:52 PM 12/19/2008, Lowell Fitt wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  How many engine outs resulting in forced landings have each of us had and how many are we aware of with friends or local folks.   To keep it relevant, these have to be airplanes that have an Experimental Airworthiness Certificate - not ultralights or powered parachutes, etc. 	


 Lowell,

         Would you re-post this with a new subject?



 Thanks,



 

 Guy Buchanan - Kitfox List Moderator

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade

 100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar     [quote][b]

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:40 am Post subject: Dead stick practice

At 03:28 PM 12/18/2008, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I'm still trying to figure you out.  For a young buck with a few hours in your log book 	


 I'm not attacking Lowell, but citing this message as a prime example of a post that should have been sent off-line.



 

 Guy Buchanan - Kitfox List Moderator

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade

 100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar     [quote][b]

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 9:43 am Post subject: Dead stick practice

Do they have sims to practice dead stick landings on??  For fighter jets?



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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