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XL wing concerns
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europa2

Joined: 22 Dec 2008
Posts: 2

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:34 pm Post subject: XL wing concerns

Mine is one of 17 odd XL’s grounded by the LAA in UK.  There is a feeling that both Chris and Michael Heintz are reluctant to respond to our LAA’s observations on the airframe?  Do they intend to engage with them, thereby speeding up the investigation and hopefully, get the aircraft released for flight?  

Our concern is that the eventual outcome might be severe restrictions in the flight envelope; effectively reducing it to a single seater, limited in both range and payload!  The aircraft’s resale value would be greatly reduced, and I believe buyers would shun away from it………



Come on Chris!

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:47 pm Post subject: XL wing concerns

David,



Who did you buy your plane from?  Surely, Michael 

Heintz had nothing to do with it in any way.  Why 

do you think he or Chris should come to your defense?



If you bought your plane from Czech Aircraft 

Works, then you have a real problem since, as I 

understand it, they have gone bankrupt.  If it 

was from Zenith, Zenair, or AMD, then you should 

be directing your complaints to them.



Where ever did you folks get the notion that the 

Heintzs were responsible for your government's actions?



Paul

Camas, WA

USA

At 03:34 PM 12/22/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Mine is one of 17 odd XL’s grounded by the LAA 

in UK.  There is a feeling that both Chris and 

Michael Heintz are reluctant to respond to our 

LAA’s observations on the airframe?  Do they 

intend to engage with them, thereby speeding up 

the investigation and hopefully, get the aircraft released for flight?

Our concern is that the eventual outcome might 

be severe restrictions in the flight envelope; 

effectively reducing it to a single seater, 

limited in both range and payload!  The 

aircraft’s resale value would be greatly 

reduced, and I believe buyers would shun away from it………



Come on Chris!javascript:emoticon('')

Martin Pohl

Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 118
Location: CH-8645 Jona SG, Switzerland

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:32 am Post subject: Re: XL wing concerns

Paul,



 	  Quote: 	
		  If you bought your plane from Czech Aircraft

Works, then you have a real problem since, as I

understand it, they have gone bankrupt. 	




Just to make things clear: CZAW was the official contractor for Zenair until the end of 2006, i.e. all Zenair CH601XL-kits for Europe were delivered through CZAW.



I contacted Zenair US in autumn 2005 to order my CH601XL and was redirected by them to CZAW ("kits in Europe are solely sold through CZAW"). However my serial number is a real Zenair number and my kit is a real Zenair kit.



Martin

_________________
Martin Pohl
Zodiac XL QBK
8645 Jona, Switzerland
http://www.pohltec.ch/ZodiacXL/Main.html

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:48 am Post subject: XL wing concerns

Hi Martin,

Thanks for writing and clearing up my misunderstanding.

Does the relationship between Zenair and CZAW mean you can get 

warranty service from Zenair?

Also, I understood the European model XLs have several significant 

differences from the other ones.  The only one I can identify is the 

landing gear being composite rather than solid aluminum.  I thought 

there were empty weight and possibly gross weight differences as well.

Paul

At 12:32 AM 12/23/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

Paul,

 > If you bought your plane from Czech Aircraft

 > Works, then you have a real problem since, as I

 > understand it, they have gone bankrupt.

Just to make things clear: CZAW was the official contractor for 

Zenair until the end of 2006, i.e. all Zenair CH601XL-kits for 

Europe were delivered through CZAW.

I contacted Zenair US in autumn 2005 to order my CH601XL and was 

redirected by them to CZAW ("kits in Europe are solely sold through 

CZAW"). However my serial number is a real Zenair number and my kit 

is a real Zenair kit.

Martin

--------

Martin Pohl

Zodiac XL QBK

8645 Jona, Switzerland

europa2

Joined: 22 Dec 2008
Posts: 2

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 3:29 am Post subject: Re: XL wing concerns

It should be stressed that the CZAW production of Zenair aircraft, whether RTF or kit, were built under Zenair licence. 

However, at the end of 2006 Zenair and Czech Aircraft works (CZAW) mutually agreed to discontinue the manufacture of Zenair aircraft by CZAW .

The build plans of the CZAW supplied XL kit, has Chris Heintz's copyright on the bottom of each page. Therefore, with regards to accidents involving the Zenair type aircraft, it is appropriate that Chris is involved in discussion with the appropriate aviation authority.

david_a_g_johnson(at)btin
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 3:35 am Post subject: XL wing concerns

I've been 'sitting on the sidelines' watching the exchanges that have been 

flying around!



Now I'm sticking my head above the parapet.



I'm in the UK, I bought my 601XL kit from CZAW, as they were the European 

agents for Zenith.



 	  Quote: 	
		  From my experience, it is impossible to get any kind of support from Zenith, 

they just don't want to know.
	




My kit is virtually finished - ready for the final inspections before test 

flying - and now it's grounded, so you can imagine I'm really happy!!!!



The drawings that came with the kit were the full Zenith set, as far as I 

know exactly the same as you get in the USA. Wherever there is a difference, 

there is an additional page showing the differences, so it is easy to see 

how different the CZAW kit is.



As Paul said, the kit includes the composite U/C legs, but virtually all the 

other changes are very minor - things like the rudder turnbuckles are at the 

front, near the pedals, rather than at the rear.



The only significant change that I am aware of is that they have changed the 

angle of incidence of the wing by lowering the rear attachment point, but no 

structural change there.



I have not been able to find any structural difference, the specified 

thicknesses for the skins, ribs, etc. are all the same in the 2 sets of 

drawings.



Mine is the VLA version with a MTOW of 560Kgs, there is a 'microlight' 

version which is limited (by the definition of a microlight) to 450Kgs and I 

think that may (but I'm not sure) make use of thinner metal in some areas.



Dave Johnson



Oxfordshire - in the UK



601XL with Jab. 3300



do not archive (or flame - I forgot my asbestos pants!!)



---

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 3:49 am Post subject: XL wing concerns

David,



Chris has indeed been involved in accident investigations and 

supplemental structure testing for the XL.  He has also issued some 

letters recommending actions by XL builders/owners.  In particular, 

he has suggested a need to keep control cables tensioned 

properly.  He has also mentioned that the design trade-off giving 

very good pitch control at low speeds has made it possible to cause 

damage with abrupt stick inputs at high speeds - particularly in the 

negative G direction.



On the other hand, I understand Chris has been retired (in France) 

for several years now.  I know there have been a number of 

engineering changes made to the XL since he retired.  I must conclude 

there have been other engineers making design changes even though the 

drawings still show only his name.



There are a number of engineers familiar with the XL design.  They 

have been readily available for builder assistance, and I presume 

there has been plenty of engineering support for the various 

government led accident investigations.  The only comments I have 

seen suggesting lack of engineering support for those investigations 

have come from people too ashamed of their identities to include 

their names along with their comments.



Paul

Camas, WA  USA

At 03:29 AM 12/23/2008, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  It should be stressed that the CZAW production of Zenair aircraft, 

whether RTF or kit, were built under Zenair licence.

However, at the end of 2006 Zenair and Czech Aircraft works (CZAW) 

mutually agreed to discontinue the manufacture of Zenair aircraft by CZAW .

The build plans of the CZAW supplied XL kit, has Chris Heintz's 

copyright on the bottom of each page. Therefore, with regards to 

accidents involving the Zenair type aircraft, it is appropriate that 

Chris is involved in discussion with the appropriate aviation authority.

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:08 am Post subject: XL wing concerns

Hi David,



After several years on this list and working daily on my own XL I am 

still confused by the various companies and people involved with this 

design.  It seems I am not the only one.



Recent posts have claimed CZAW was an agent for both Zenith and 

Zenair.  These are two completely different companies which exist in 

two different countries.  Zenair is the Canadian company that 

produces parts and kits designed originally by Chris Heintz and 

Zenith Aircraft Company is a USA company that also sells some of 

those same designs.  I know there is a close relationship of some 

sort between Zenith and Zenair since I had to wait for Zenair to make 

a new wing spar for shipment to Zenith when I ordered a replacement 

wing kit.  The remaining wing kit parts were manufactured at 

Zenith.  I strongly suspect there never was a relationship between 

CZAW and Zenith but there was some sort of licensing agreement 

between CZAW and Zenair.



I don't really understand the relationship between CZAW and either of 

the companies mentioned above.  However, I don't believe they acted 

as an agent for them.  Rather, I think CZAW produced airplanes based 

on the same CH designs (at least in some cases) and sold them 

primarily in Europe.  I am also aware of at least one CZAW XL that 

was sold as a complete airplane to a list member in Virginia.



There is similar confusion over the various members of the Heintz 

family.  Chris is the original designer for the CHxxx line of 

aircraft.  He is currently retired.  He has 4 sons who currently make 

their fortune working with his designs.  Sebastian Heintz and 

Nicholas Heintz both work for Zenith Aircraft Company in Mexico, 

Missouri.  Michael Heintz is involved with a California company that 

acts as an agent for Zenith.  There is another one whose name I can't 

quote who is involved with AMD in Georgia.



Let me apologize if I am still confused over the various company 

names and locations and various members of the Heintz family involved 

with those companies.  Some times I suspect they went out of their 

way to keep their customers confused over these questions.



Paul

XL getting close

Camas, WA  USA

At 03:35 AM 12/23/2008, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I'm in the UK, I bought my 601XL kit from CZAW, as they were the 

European agents for Zenith.

aerobat

Joined: 07 Nov 2008
Posts: 21
Location: UK

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:06 am Post subject: Re: XL wing concerns

None of the UK CH601XLs are microlights, they all have MTOW of 560kg apart from two that appear to be 590kg.

My own XL came from CZAW complete with it's detailed build drawings that have ZENITH AIRCRAFT in bold print, all rights reserved design by CHRIS HEINTZ and copyright 2002 Chris Heinz on every sheet apart from the few CZAW modifications ie undercarriage.

skyguynca

Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 128

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:27 am Post subject: XL wing concerns

Wow, I usually stay out of this stuff but come one guys. I have see 5 of you

flame people, swearing there are differences between European and US XL's,

then flame saying "your problem is with CZAW not Chris Heinz!" With all of

this bickering I have see the US "Zenith is Magnificant and Perfect"

attitude to a embarrassing point. You guys were wrong with your statements

and when it was pointed out by other European owners you accepted it but

after the brutal tongue bashing you gave the least you can do is admit you

are wrong and APOLOGIZE. 



Yeah go ahead and flame me, I only have a few posts here. Yeah I sold my

601HD along time ago, but I bought a new set of plans and will build a new

601HD when I get around to it, but please don't let that stop you flame me

too, it seems to be all you can do.



You guys forget, this is a builders list. It is here for builders and if

they have a problem this is the place to vent. Remember we are supposed to

be supportive, not DEFENSIVE. None of us designed or sold Zenair, Zenith,

CZAW or AMD products, but we all own or are building them. I have great

compassion for the guys in Europe who are grounded. I can understand their

anger and frustraition.



What should have been said to the aerobat and the others who posted:



Wow, that is news to me. Well if it is true hopefully it will get worked out

soon. Being here in the USA we do not hear the same things, we can only read

what is posted by Zenith.  Where did you get your information? Is your plane

built? Or still working on it?



Well something to that effect, you get the idea. Instead what I saw was a

immeadiate verbal attack to a fellow builder who has problems beyond his

control and who is very frustraited and needed support and a positive

response.



Well you guys, it is close to Christmas and to a bright new year. Lets try a

little friendship to people we don't know. Who knows someone might even show

you the same when you need it.



David M.

Petaluma CA

--

aerobat

Joined: 07 Nov 2008
Posts: 21
Location: UK

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:41 am Post subject: Re: XL wing concerns

Excellent post Skyguy. Merry Christmas to you and your family.

Happy flying.

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: XL wing concerns

thank you Dave. Have a blessed Christmas and a satisfying new year.



David L. Downey

  Harleysville (SE) PA, USA



  

--- On Tue, 12/23/08, skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com <skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com> wrote:

[quote]From: skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com <skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com>

Subject: RE: Re: XL wing concerns

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2008, 8:25 AM



[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: <skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com>



Wow, I usually stay out of this stuff but come one guys. I have see 5 of you

flame people, swearing there are differences between European and US XL's,

then flame saying "your problem is with CZAW not Chris  Heinz!" With

all of

this bickering I have see the US "Zenith is Magnificant and Perfect"

attitude to a embarrassing point. You guys were wrong with your statements

and when it was pointed out by other European owners you accepted it but

after the brutal tongue bashing you gave the least you can do is admit you

are wrong and APOLOGIZE. 



Yeah go ahead and flame me, I only have a few posts here. Yeah I sold my

601HD along time ago, but I bought a new set of plans and will build a new

601HD when I get around to it, but please don't let that stop you flame me

too, it seems to be all you can do.



You guys forget, this is a builders list. It is here for builders and if

they have a problem this is the place to vent. Remember we are supposed to

be supportive, not DEFENSIVE. None of us designed or sold Zenair, Zenith,

CZAW or AMD products, but we all own or are building them. I have great

compassion for the guys  in Europe who are grounded. I can understand their

anger and frustraition.



What should have been said to the aerobat and the others who posted:



Wow, that is news to me. Well if it is true hopefully it will get worked out

soon. Being here in the USA we do not hear the same things, we can only read

what is posted by Zenith.  Where did you get your information? Is your plane

built? Or still working on it?



Well something to that effect, you get the idea. Instead what I saw was a

immeadiate verbal attack to a fellow builder who has problems beyond his

control and who is very frustraited and needed support and a positive

response.



Well you guys, it is close to Christmas and to a bright new year. Lets try a

little friendship to people we don't know. Who knows someone might even

show

you the same when you need it.



David M.

Petaluma CA

--

carlossa52(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:48 am Post subject: XL wing concerns

Well said, David !

Merry Christmas and a Great New Year !

Carlos

CH601-HD, plans



do not archive



2008/12/23  <skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com (skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com)>

 [quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: <skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com (skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com)>

  

 .. Instead what I saw was a

 immeadiate verbal attack to a fellow builder who has problems beyond his

 control and who is very frustraited and needed support and a positive

 response.

 

 Well you guys, it is close to Christmas and to a bright new year. Lets try a

 little friendship to people we don't know. Who knows someone might even show

 you the same when you need it.

 

 David M.

 Petaluma CA[b]

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:54 am Post subject: XL wing concerns

On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 04:07:00AM -0800, Paul Mulwitz wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   There is similar confusion over the various members of the Heintz family.  

 Chris is the original designer for the CHxxx line of aircraft.  He is 

 currently retired.  He has 4 sons who currently make their fortune working 

 with his designs.  Sebastian Heintz and Nicholas Heintz both work for 

 Zenith Aircraft Company in Mexico, Missouri.  Michael Heintz is involved 

 with a California company that acts as an agent for Zenith.  There is 

 another one whose name I can't quote who is involved with AMD in Georgia.


	


That's Mathieu Heintz.



Who runs Zenair in Canada? I know that AMD gets quick build kits from them

for completion and sale, as I watched two of them being delivered while I

was at the AMD factory to take delivery of my airplane. Is that where Zenith

gets their quick build kits, or do they start from parts and do their own

assembly? I'd thought that Zenith was, basically, the US distributor for

Zenair.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL           http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 7:22 am Post subject: XL wing concerns

On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 07:13:03AM -0800, Sabrina wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   When your LAA, through a former Zenith dealer, takes the time to

 repeatedly contact a 15 year old girl in the U.S. about the addition of SS

 A5 rivets on the inboard ailerons aft hinge portion attach points and

 requests more information each time, it means only one thing, they are

 very thorough.


	


It also means the 15-year-old in question has earned a significant amount of

respect as an aeronautical engineer. Personally, I think it's well-deserved.



 	  Quote: 	
		   The AMD XLi and the Sabrina roll out at 850 pounds empty.


	


My AMD XLi did, but it's one of the heavier ones due to the level of

equipment installed. AMD's aircraft tend to be in the 750-800 pound range

with more usual levels of equipment, or 790-850 with BRS parachutes (which

mine does not have).



 	  Quote: 	
		   As the Germans recently pointed out, how in the world do you EU CZAW

 owners get your aircraft to come in at the required EU weights?


	


This is a really good question, to which I've never heard a definitive

straight answer.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL           http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 7:25 am Post subject: XL wing concerns

Jay,

 

 I know that Zenith Aircraft Company in Mexico MO does manufacture parts.  I have observed their CNC routers making skins and actual people making wing ribs and fabricating and welding various 4130 steel assemblies.  Obviously, they don't make engines, flap actuators, wheels and brake assemblies, strobe/nav light sets and such.  I know that wing spars are made elsewhere.  I really don't know where the assembly of the ready-to-go quick build kit components is done. Sebastian runs the Mexico facility and Nick is now in Europe.

 

 Jay in Dallas

 Do not archive

 

   

 

   

 

 --

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:26 am Post subject: XL wing concerns

There may have been a change to the later versions of the Zenith plans  

where .016 skins have been changed to .025. In my early plans, every  

skin aft of the cabin area is .016 and so are the ailerons, all the  

other skins are .025.



Some people were concerned about oil canning on the aft fuselage area  

and were considering using .025 or .020 instead of .016. I think that  

Zenith approved that modification. I seem to recall that Zenith may  

have changed the plans to include thicker skins on the aft fuselage  

area. How thick is the aluminum in that area on your plans? If there  

was a change in the plans, maybe the CZAW planes were built from  

earlier plans.



I recall some builders were considering using the thicker aluminum  

because .016 was not readily available in their region. The only down  

side I can see of using thicker skins on the aft fuselage would be the  

extra weight and a small change in the CG that would need to be taken  

into account. On the other hand, using thicker skins on the control  

surfaces could have serious consequences.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 

 <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>



  I have been sent photos showing .016 skin thicknesses on some CZAW  

 aircraft kits where Zenith plans spec .025   Are there static tests  

 of the .016 CZAW aircraft anywhere to be had?




	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

Jeyoung65(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:46 am Post subject: XL wing concerns

FYI: My 601 HD plans has .016 for the Rear Top and Rear Bottom skin  at .016" (Ref: 6V-8 drawing dated 04/01) as well at the Wing Nose Skin  and  Wingtip Rear Top Skin ( Ref: 6V-9 dated 01/02)  Jerry of Georgia

 

 

  

  

  

  In a message dated 12/23/2008 11:30:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Zenith601-List message posted by: Bryan Martin    <bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net>



There may have been a change to the    later versions of the Zenith plans  

where .016 skins have been    changed to .025. In my early plans, every  

skin aft of the cabin area    is .016 and so are the ailerons, all the  

other skins are    .025.



Some people were concerned about oil canning on the aft fuselage    area  

and were considering using .025 or .020 instead of .016. I    think that  

Zenith approved that modification. I seem to recall that    Zenith may  

have changed the plans to include thicker skins on the    aft fuselage  

area. How thick is the aluminum in that area on your    plans? If there  

was a change in the plans, maybe the CZAW planes    were built from  

earlier plans.



I recall some builders were    considering using the thicker aluminum  

because .016 was not readily    available in their region. The only down  

side I can see of using    thicker skins on the aft fuselage would be the  

extra weight and a    small change in the CG that would need to be taken  

into account. On    the other hand, using thicker skins on the control  

surfaces could    have serious consequences.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 --> Zenith601-List    message posted by: "Sabrina"  

    <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>



  I have been sent photos    showing .016 skin thicknesses on some CZAW  

 aircraft kits where    Zenith plans spec .025   Are there static tests  

 of    the .016 CZAW aircraft anywhere to be had?




	


-- 

Bryan    Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not  sp;             (And Get Some AWESOME FREE   find  you for                          -Matt Dralle,    List  e the  es  y                 - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  =========================



	




One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail=emlcntaolcom00000019">The NEW AOL.com.

  [quote][b]

A.F.RUPP(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:53 am Post subject: XL wing concerns

Martin Pohl

Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 118
Location: CH-8645 Jona SG, Switzerland

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:20 am Post subject: Re: XL wing concerns

May I correct this one:

 	  Quote: 	
		  CZAW did this 2" down--2 degree decalage change by TWISTING the main spars rather than re-setting the main carry through spar... Can the LAA find any static testing of this new twisted main spar anywhere in CZAW's books? 	




The CZAW CH601XL has the main carry through spar reset by 2°. The wings/main spar angles of the wings are similar to the Zenith version.



The UK LAA has static wing loading tests of the CZAW CH601XL done by CZAW. The wings were tested all the way to wing failure.



Cheers and Merry Christmas

Martin

_________________
Martin Pohl
Zodiac XL QBK
8645 Jona, Switzerland
http://www.pohltec.ch/ZodiacXL/Main.html

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