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XL wing concerns
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A.F.RUPP(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: XL wing concerns

All;,

I don't normally say anything but seems to me we are not thinking through this.

Look at your plans, does what you are saying make sense? If I do this what happens over there.

What Sabrina is saying is if you drop the rear attach point down with out changing the uprights you are preloading the rivets on the spar cap and preloading the mid spar at the uprights just to get the nose down. Talk about zippers. Setting the flap upstop a little short and rigging in aileron droop to the flaps or changing the incidence on the horizontal stabilizer as Sabrina did will get the nose down without any stress on the airframe. It may slow you down but, depends what your desires are. Deviate from the engineer's design and you have built in a different airplane, don't call it his.

Notice how Sabrina always goes back to the plans. That is CH's design.

When you change the tension on your control cables you are rigging your controls I have heard some say they had "x" tension on this cable but the balance had something else. If you have different tension on the cables to a control you have a resistance on those cables or they would be the same unless you have rig pins in. 

NTSB investigations always have "interested parties" as part of an investigation. That is where they get their expertise from. I would assume any foreign investigation would be the same.

Al Rupp

601XL  Corvair power

Almost done

In Aircraft maintenance since 1944, mostly airline

-------------- Original message from "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>: -------------- 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 "The only significant change that I am aware of is that they have changed the angle of incidence of the wing by lowering the rear attachment point, but no structural change there." End Quote. 

 CZAW did this 2" down--2 degree decalage change by TWISTING the main spars rather than re-setting the main carry through spar... Can the LAA find any static testing of this new twisted main spar anywhere in CZAW's books? 

 I am sure the FAA and NTSB recognize this and that is why they contacted CZAW owners here in the U.S. The 650 changes the main spar set to match the new rear spar angle. 

 When your LAA, through a former Zenith dealer, takes the time to repeatedly contact a 15 year old girl in the U.S. about the addition of SS A5 rivets on the inboard ailerons aft hinge portion attach points and requests more information each time, it means only one thing, they are very thorough. I applaud the 

 LAA. They don't believe for one minute that this was ONLY significant change 

 CZAW made. The AMD XLi and the Sabrina roll out at 850 pounds empty. As the 

 Germans recently pointed out, how in the world do you EU CZAW owners get your 

 aircraft to come in at the required EU weights? I have been sent photos 

 showing .016 skin thicknesses on some CZAW aircraft kits where Zenith plans spec 

 .025 Are there static tests of the .016 CZAW aircraft anywhere to be had?

Martin Pohl

Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 118
Location: CH-8645 Jona SG, Switzerland

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:20 am Post subject: Re: XL wing concerns

I will scan the CZAW drawing with the plywood spar template - however not today, the kids want to have time with their dad tonight .



The online source you listed (http://www.slovak-aircraft.eu/) is not CZAW and does not seem to be related in any way to CZAW.



The red CH601XL (http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo-testing.html) is in fact a CZAW version of the CH601XL. The load test was performed at CZAW for the european certification of the airplane. I had limited access to the load test document which is available to the european aviation authorities.



Cheers Martin

_________________
Martin Pohl
Zodiac XL QBK
8645 Jona, Switzerland
http://www.pohltec.ch/ZodiacXL/Main.html

Martin Pohl

Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 118
Location: CH-8645 Jona SG, Switzerland

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:37 am Post subject: Re: XL wing concerns

I just got time to scan the drawing:

http://www.pohltec.ch/ZodiacXL/Zulassung/CZAW_CH601XL_WingIncidence.pdf



Martin

_________________
Martin Pohl
Zodiac XL QBK
8645 Jona, Switzerland
http://www.pohltec.ch/ZodiacXL/Main.html

z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:37 pm Post subject: XL wing concerns

On Tuesday 23 December 2008 09:13, Sabrina wrote:

<snip>

 	  Quote: 	
		   When your LAA, through a former Zenith dealer, takes the time to repeatedly

 contact a 15 year old girl in the U.S. about the addition of SS A5 rivets

 on the inboard ailerons aft hinge portion attach points and requests more

 information each time, it means only one thing, they are very thorough.   

 I applaud the LAA.    They don't believe for one minute that this was ONLY

 significant change CZAW made.  The AMD XLi and the Sabrina roll out at 850

 pounds empty.   As the Germans recently pointed out, how in the world do

 you EU CZAW owners get your aircraft to come in at the required EU weights?

   I have been sent photos showing .016 skin thicknesses on some CZAW

 aircraft kits where Zenith plans spec .025   Are there static tests of the

 .016 CZAW aircraft anywhere to be had?


	


<snip>



This is, I believe, a good and valid question. Another question one might ask 

is: "has any dynamic testing been done?" 



The failures we read of appear to have occurred under dynamic, not static, 

conditions. The aircraft were flying, not sitting in a hangar with snadbags on 

the wing.



Flutter, if indeed this is what has happened, can be the result 

of resonance, which is a dynamic condition. I would like to see the results of 

relevant structural dynamic testing, as well as static structural testing.



I don't believe that we, as individuals, have enough information than to do 

more than beat around the fringe of the situation. Only the FAA, similar 

national organizations, and Zenith have enough information to draw firm 

conclusions. I await their thinking on the subject.

-- 

==============================================

Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.

=================================================

               Jim B. Belcher

     Retired aerospace technical manager

    BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

           Instrument Rated Pilot

     General Radio Telephone Certificate

=================================================

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: XL wing concerns

Did I miss an attachment?



David L. Downey

  Harleysville (SE) PA, USA



  

--- On Tue, 12/23/08, Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> wrote:

[quote]From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>

Subject: Re: XL wing concerns

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2008, 3:22 PM



[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Sabrina"

<chicago2paris(at)msn.com>



Thank you for the PDF Martin...   I am so happy to see that CH's name is

not on it.  I misspoke about the firewall set, the 80 on your plans is the

bottom angle.





Read this topic online         [quote][b]

rans6andrew

Joined: 23 Nov 2008
Posts: 16
Location: Berks, UK

Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:56 am Post subject: Re: XL wing concerns

does anyone know if the 650 uses the same wing/spar/fuselage structure as the 601XL?



Andrew - usual details 601ul etc.

_________________
A good way through building a 601UL with 912UL.
Still flying Rans S6 with 503.

David X

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 154
Location: Princeton, NJ, USA

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:50 am Post subject: Re: XL wing concerns

The lady doth protest too much. 



Paul, are you a spokesman for ZAC, I wonder?

_________________
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE

David X

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 154
Location: Princeton, NJ, USA

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: XL wing concerns

Sabrina, the aircraft was built as per ZAC drawings in order to qualify as LSA class.



How would one know if any of the parts below were "changed"? Please clarify what it is you want to know.



 	  Sabrina wrote: 	
		  David,



Which CZAW version do you have?



Is your rear spar attach lowered?



Is your center spar modified per the CZAW plans shown above?



What is the thickness of your rear side skins?



Not protesting, just gathering information...  :o)



Same question to you as Martin...  David: Are any of these items changed as well on your version of the CZAW 601XL? 6B-5-1, 6B5-4, 6B5-6, 6B-5-2, 6B-18-1, 6B-18-3, 6W-1-1,6W-1-2, 6B-11-2



    Player Queen:

    Both here and hence pursue me lasting strife,

    If once I be a widow, ever I be a wife!



    Player King:

    'Tis deeply sworn. Sweet, leave me here a while,

    My spirits grow dull, and fain I would beguile

    The tedious day with sleep.



    Player Queen:

    Sleep rock thy brain,

    And never come mischance between us twain!



    Hamlet:

    Madam, how like you this play?



    Queen:

    The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

    Hamlet Act 3, scene 2, 222–230

_________________
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE

David X

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 154
Location: Princeton, NJ, USA

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:36 pm Post subject: Re: XL wing concerns

I see that you are referring to the rear spar and attach points (6b5-1,2,4,6), the center arm rest (6b18-1), the seat belt attach points (6b18-3), flap rib (6w1-1), flap skin (6w1-2) and forward side skins (6b11-2). (see attached)



What specifically information are you looking for?



 	  Sabrina wrote: 	
		  David: Are any of these items changed as well on your version of the CZAW 601XL? 6B-5-1, 6B5-4, 6B5-6, 6B-5-2, 6B-18-1, 6B-18-3, 6W-1-1,6W-1-2, 6B-11-2

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_________________
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:43 pm Post subject: XL wing concerns

Oh No!



Not the DREADED DROOPY Fortunes!



Paul

do not archive

At 02:03 PM 1/1/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I find my Zenith doth depend upon

A most auspicious star, whose influence

If now I court not, but omit, my fortunes

Will ever after droop.  Here cease more questions.



(Tempest I.ii.217-220)

David X

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 154
Location: Princeton, NJ, USA

Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: XL wing concerns

If you are pursuing something pertinent to possible design differences with CZAW and ZAC plans ... by all means do not cease asking questions. I have a set of designs that go with the plane and I can send pictures, perform measurements etc.



No question in this regard is unimportant. 



 	  Sabrina wrote: 	
		  I find my Zenith doth depend upon

A most auspicious star, whose influence 

If now I court not, but omit, my fortunes

Will ever after droop.  Here cease more questions.



(Tempest I.ii.217-220)

_________________
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE

ronpollock(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:28 pm Post subject: XL wing concerns

As someone monitoring this discussion because of an interest in plans

building a 601 or equiv, I'd appreciate any opinions relative to my

position. Especially whether the 650 is susceptible to the same

issues. What would you do if you were just thinking of getting

started.



Thanks, Ron in L.A.

pdn8r(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:48 pm Post subject: XL wing concerns

I'm comfortable with my choice and would not hesitate to do it again.



Bill Pagan EAA Tech Counselor #4395

601XL QBK/Corvair/N565BW (RES)

--- On Fri, 1/2/09, Ron Pollock <ronpollock(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 [quote]

From: Ron Pollock <ronpollock(at)gmail.com>

Subject: Re: Re: XL wing concerns

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Friday, January 2, 2009, 4:27 PM

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----



           [quote][b]

ter_turn(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:48 pm Post subject: XL wing concerns

[quote][b]

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: XL wing concerns

 	  ronpollock(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		  As someone monitoring this discussion because of an interest in plans

building a 601 or equiv, I'd appreciate any opinions relative to my

position. Especially whether the 650 is susceptible to the same

issues. What would you do if you were just thinking of getting

started.



Thanks, Ron in L.A. 	




If you are a pilot, fly one.  I did and bought the plans on the way home from the airport.  With plans building you need to put some time in almost every day so plan your workspace.

_________________
Ron Lendon
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
CH 601 XLB
N601LT - Flying
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
https://sites.google.com/site/corvairenginedata/

ronpollock(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:23 pm Post subject: XL wing concerns

Thanks Ron. I'm plans building a 701 now so know the drill. Just took a liking to the 601 and ran into a bunch of controversy I'm trying to sort out. Add to that the new model and trying to sort that out. Guess my real question was  whether some here, if starting now, would build from 650 plans. I've gotten feedback that they are almost mix & match. 



I wasn't asking if anyone had regrets or would go non-Zenair. But I'm happy to hear those happy with their 601s as from my position a little extra confidence is required to start on.



Ron in L.A.



--

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: XL wing concerns

 	  ronpollock(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		  Thanks Ron. I'm plans building a 701 now so know the drill. Just took a liking to the 601 and ran into a bunch of controversy I'm trying to sort out. Add to that the new model and trying to sort that out. Guess my real question was  whether some here, if starting now, would build from 650 plans. I've gotten feedback that they are almost mix & match. 



I wasn't asking if anyone had regrets or would go non-Zenair. But I'm happy to hear those happy with their 601s as from my position a little extra confidence is required to start on.



Ron in L.A.



-- 	




Ron,



The XL is a well designed structure.  Quite strong in my opinion and I have a bit of experience in destroying structures, it was part of my job at Chrysler Engineering back in the 70's.



The feeling I get from talking to the Heintz's is it, the 650, is just slight changes from the several models they build worldwide to reduce the component count and make a better plane.  Either XL or 650 are pretty much the same from what I see.



Much of the XL controversy sounds like our American press, full of supposition, conjecture, and opinion.  As far as any consistent contributing factors there appears to be none currently.

Darryl Legg

Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Posts: 18
Location: Darwin, Australia

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:22 am Post subject: Re: XL wing concerns

why is it that I can't read Sabrina's posts? Have tried IE and Mozilla browsers. weird.

Darryl

Do not archive

leinad

Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 283
Location: Central Virginia

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:19 am Post subject: Blank Posts

Darryl,

I have the same problem with Sabrina's and occasionally other posts that are blank.  I emailed Matt Dralle about it once but didn't get any reply.  I'm reading these posts from the web forum, and not via email.  Once in a while Sabrina posts something that I can read, but 95% of her posts are blank.  It's obvious others are reading them because they post replies to her's.   

Dan Dempsey



 	  Darryl Legg wrote: 	
		  why is it that I can't read Sabrina's posts? Have tried IE and Mozilla browsers. weird.

Darryl

_________________
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine

Darryl Legg

Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Posts: 18
Location: Darwin, Australia

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:49 am Post subject: Re: XL wing concerns

Thanks Dan,

Like you I can't see anything, but obviously others can. Can anyone help?

Darryl.

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