Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Revised Europa Specifications

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Revised Europa Specifications

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

david.stanbridge(at)swift
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:08 pm Post subject: Revised Europa Specifications

Hi again,



Today we finished the update of the specifications of all the models on the

Europa website. I would appreciate if you could give them a glance over and

let me know if in their opinion they reflect reality or not.



Thank you,



Dave

 

Swift Technology Group Limited

www.swifttg.com



(T) +44 (0)1603 262301

(M) +44 (0)7725 655600

david.stanbridge(at)swifttg.com

jimpuglise(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject: Revised Europa Specifications

Dave- 

  

Generally, very nicely done.  I have a couple of comments.  First, there is also the conventional gear option available.  Currently Bob Berube is doing them, but you may wish to discuss marketing the kit through Europa also.  I know that the parts procurement is a nuisance for him.  Second, in terms of engines, there are several Jabaru engines in use in the US.  I know one of your guys in the UK had a tough time with it, but the engine is still a good option and is 125 HP without supercharging.  Also, I am not an authority on it, but I thought the 914 was 125 HP.   

  

My interest, as you may know, is getting an LSA wing option for the airplane.  I have lost my physical and if I can't get it into an LSA category, it is just a useless pile of fiberglass to me.  

  

Good Luck -- Glad to see you working on it. 

  

Jim Puglise A-283, Punta Gorda, FL  



---

garrys(at)tampabay.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject: Revised Europa Specifications

Hi Dave,



I took a look at the "new" website specs.  Nice.  I'm glad to see that 

Europa is no longer advertising 200 MPH cruise speeds, but I'd still argue 

that 155 MPH at 75% power is a bit high.  I'd be more inclined to say that 

140 mph is closer to real experience.  Also, I appreciate that "some" 

builders can come in at 780 lbs empty weight, but I think if you check with 

the Europa Club you'll see that the average is closer to 850 lbs.  With full 

upholstery, really good paint, and full instruments, speed mods, fairings, 

wheel pants, etc., I think 875 to 900 is where you'll end up.



Keep up the fine work!



Garry Stout

A060, 914 Tri

Tampa, Florida



---

christoph.both(at)acadiau
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: Revised Europa Specifications

Hi,

Where would we find the written statement by Andy Draper?

Christoph Both

#223

Wolfville Nova Scotia, Canada



--

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:37 am Post subject: Re: Revised Europa Specifications

Hi Dave,



Welcome and thank you for your interest (and more) in Europa!



I have a few comments about the new specs with particular reference

to the XS Trigear with the 912uls



1)  There is no long range fuel tank for the trigear (yet!?)



2)  At 8000' DA, the 912s can not make 75% power in cruise.  Since the

    Rotax factory does not provide sufficient data, I modeled power

    Output with a simple linear model of MP and RPM.  At 8000', at

    takeoff rpm (limit 5 min) 5750 RPM, the engine provide 73%.  At

    5500 (constant pitch prop), the output is 70%, and at standard

    cruise rpm of 5000 rpm, the output is 63%.  That said, with the

    speed kit installed and a fresh wash, I do see in the range of 135kt

    TAS at 5000rpm at 8000'.  My airdata system is reasonably

    calibrated and the altimetry is IFR certificated. The air data is processed

    and displayed by a BlueMountain EFIS.



3)  While I have not done a diligent study of max climb performance,

   I do expect to see about 1100 fpm at sea level up to 1000'MSL at the

   published Vy.



Best Regards and Best Wishes for a Prosperous New Year,

_________________
Ira N224XS

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:38 am Post subject: Re: Revised Europa Specifications

Hi Dave,



Welcome and thank you for your interest (and more) in Europa!



I have a few comments about the new specs with particular reference

to the XS Trigear with the 912uls



1)  There is no long range fuel tank for the trigear (yet!?)



2)  At 8000' DA, the 912s can not make 75% power in cruise.  Since the

    Rotax factory does not provide sufficient data, I modeled power

    Output with a simple linear model of MP and RPM.  At 8000', at

    takeoff rpm (limit 5 min) 5750 RPM, the engine provide 73%.  At

    5500 (constant pitch prop), the output is 70%, and at standard

    cruise rpm of 5000 rpm, the output is 63%.  That said, with the

    speed kit installed and a fresh wash, I do see in the range of 135kt

    TAS at 5000rpm at 8000'.  My airdata system is reasonably

    calibrated and the altimetry is IFR certificated. The air data is processed

    and displayed by a BlueMountain EFIS.



3)  While I have not done a diligent study of max climb performance,

   I do expect to see about 1100 fpm at sea level up to 1000'MSL at the

   published Vy.



4)  The MTOW is 1450 lbs in the US, as published in my OpLims 



Best Regards and Best Wishes for a Prosperous New Year,

_________________
Ira N224XS

air.guerner(at)orange.fr
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 6:33 am Post subject: Revised Europa Specifications

Hi Ira,

  

 It is interesting to compare your computed figures  with those from ROTAX and DIAMOND. 

 Based on fig.14, page 10-8 of the ROTAX 912ULS  Owner Manual, the engine should be capable of producing 75 % power at 8000  ft at full throttle and 5500 RPM. This is not 75% of 100 HP but 75% of the  max continuous power of 94 HP, i.e.  69 HP. At 8000 ft, full throttle, 5000  RPM, the power is 59.5 %. 

 Below is what Diamond shows on the Katana  DA20-100 Flight Manual. This aircraft is JAR-VLA certified and  uses the same 912S engine. The Manual is available on line on the  Diamond website. Below are their cruise figures at 8000 ft. :

 5500 RPM, 22 In.Hg: 75% of max continuous  power (assumed to be at full  throttle):

  5350 RPM, 21,7 In.Hg:  65%  (probably not at full throttle) 5100 RPM, 21 In.Hg: 55%  (probably  not at full throttle)

 The Diamond figures are consistent with the Rotax  ones at 5500 RPM but not for the other power settings.Your computed figures  differ significantly from both the Rotax and the Diamond figures. 

 One interesting thing is that  Diamond provides fuel flow figures. This confirms the higher you fly with  the Rotax, the more fuel you use. A typical exemple is 18 liters/hour at  75% at 0 ft and 23,6 l/h at the same power at 8000ft. That is a 31%  increase! 

  

 Regarding the advertised cruising speed of the  Europa, I have made numerous measurements using the 3 way GPS method and  consistently get 135 kts TAS at 8000 ft, full throttle and 5000 RPM, which is  about 60% power according to Rotax. This is for an XS monowheel with  912 ULS, Airmaster prop and speed kit. So it seems that the advertised 140 kts  at 75% at 8000 ft are absolutely achievable, provided you accept to cruise at  5500 RPM.

  

 Best regards and Merry Christmas

 Remi Guerner

 F-PGKL

  

  

  

  

 >>> At 8000' DA, the 912s can not make 75% power in  cruise.  Since the

    Rotax factory does not provide  sufficient data, I modeled power

    Output with a simple  linear model of MP and RPM.  At 8000', at

    takeoff rpm  (limit 5 min) 5750 RPM, the engine provide 73%.  At

     5500 (constant pitch prop), the output is 70%, and at  standard

    cruise rpm of 5000 rpm, the output is 63%.   That said, with the

    speed kit installed and a fresh wash,  I do see in the range of 135kt

    TAS at 5000rpm at  8000'.  

    [quote][b]

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: Revised Europa Specifications

Hi All,



Thanks for the input Remi!



I think Rotax is using a sleigh of hand, inconsistently using a moving

target for power output.  The engine is advertised as 100 hp, and

only in fine print does one see a 5 min max duration for the rated power.

Therefore I was using the advertised power rating in my table, which

I enclose below.  I can put 75% of max continuous power in fine

print on the table.  The table is a simple model, but I find it useful since

I lack a dyno to test with.



BTW, I published the Diamond power chart some months back since it

confirmed my measured fuel flows as increasing with altitude.



Merry Christmas, Happy New Year,

912ulsPower.pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

912ulsPower.pdf

Filesize:

14.74 KB

Downloaded:

381 Time(s)

_________________
Ira N224XS

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: Revised Europa Specifications

For fun, here is some of my fight test data from June 2006

demonstrating the lack of altitude compensation of mixture in

the Bing 64 carb.



I keep hoping that someone will report (favorably) on the Greensky

manual mixture control for the 912s

FuelvsAlt Sheet1.pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

FuelvsAlt Sheet1.pdf

Filesize:

21.33 KB

Downloaded:

289 Time(s)

_________________
Ira N224XS

air.guerner(at)orange.fr
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 8:26 am Post subject: Revised Europa Specifications

Thanks Ira for your table. I believe it requires  some explanation: what do the colors mean? Are all figures at full  throttle?  If not, at least one parameter (altitude or temperature) is  missing. 

 Can you clarify please?

  

 Remi

  

  

  

  

 

I think Rotax is using a sleigh of hand,  inconsistently using a moving

target for power output.  The engine is  advertised as 100 hp, and

only in fine print does one see a 5 min max  duration for the rated power.

Therefore I was using the advertised power  rating in my table, which

I enclose below.  I can put 75% of max  continuous power in fine

print on the table.  The table is a simple  model, but I find it useful since

I lack a dyno to test  with.



    [quote][b]

air.guerner(at)orange.fr
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 8:47 am Post subject: Revised Europa Specifications

Ira,

 I would love to have a mixture control system on my  aircraft. However as I understand how the HACman/Greensky mixture control works,  I am afraid it would unacceptably affect the reliability of the  engine.

 Up to now, I have not read anything such  as reliability analysis, experience in the field, etc... that would  convince me that I am wrong!

 Regards

 Remi   

  

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>For fun, here is some of my fight test  data from June 2006

demonstrating the lack of altitude compensation of  mixture in
	


the Bing 64 carb.



I keep hoping that someone will report  (favorably) on the Greensky

manual mixture control for the  912s>>>>>>>>>>>

    [quote][b]

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 9:30 am Post subject: Revised Europa Specifications

Hi Remi



"I'd love to have a mixture control system on my aircraft. However as I

 	  Quote: 	
		   understand how the HACman/Greensky mixture control works, I am afraid it

 would unacceptably affect the reliability of the engine.

 Up to now, I have not read anything such as reliability analysis,

 experience in the field, etc... that would convince me that I am wrong!"


	


N4211W not flying yet, but have and will install a mixture control on 914.

First off installed will be a Split Second mixture display that is driven

by a Bosch O2 sensor (will weld a bung on the muffler inlet just

downstream of turbo).



Slight different install on 914 because of Turbo compared to 912/s, but

will use a needle valve to leak pressure from normal airbox pressure side

of enrichment solenoid to manifold cross tube. The more I leak the leaner

the mixture will be.



This will require a run of hose to cockpit then to manifold cross tube, I

will use high temperature Viton tubing.



I will slight richen mixture on main jet and perhaps even jet needle, I

always like to run slight rich when you are making a lot of BTUs such as

100% power or in 914s case War emergency of 115%. It can also cool things

a little on a hot engine (including when stuck on ground).



Then will size a restriction on the controlled "leak" to manifold cross

tube so it will allow me to only lean to ~14.7 at 18K.



Then will have an emergency "rich" button that will allow me to activate

enrichment solenoid that could further richen mixture on less than War

emergency power if I wish. In addition the emergency "rich" button will

completely bypass all my additional plumbing.



For either a 912/S or 914 install, if you at cruise power if you pull

throttle without closing off your controlled leak, your engine is probably

going to quit. On the other hand, if you set mixture at lets say 60% power

and adjust mixture, if you increase power you will go richer than probably

desired.



Another problem is if you lean at altitude, when you come down things will

lean up further.



Having a Split Second display is a nice tool for this control, a EGT

(which I have one on each side of motor) is only semi useful.



HAC has or had a altitude adjusting bellows, I would rather have full

manual control.



I am a motorhead and feel very comfortable fiddling with carburation. If

you can't tune a lawnmower engine to perfection by ear, owned a hot 2

stroke cycle that you managed to run on the edge for long periods without

blowing up, probably not worth considering the controlled 'leak' method of

adjusting Type 64 constant depression carbs.



Ron P.

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: Revised Europa Specifications

Hi Remi,



The table is engine performance with a constant speed (AirMaster) prop.

All certificated manufacturers provide a table like mine which shows

the relationship between throttle, selected RPM, and power output.

Rotax does not.  The graph is useful to select which combination

works best under specific circumstance, particularly when fuel flow

and TAS are added to the table. My data collection is unfinished for the

bigger version of the table.  In this version of just engine, not airframe

performance, density altitude is unneeded. No matter what density

altitude, throttle sets manifold pressure, and obviously without a

turbocharger/supercharger, the maximum MP declines with altitude.

The desired rpm is set on your prop control.  Green is the usual 

operating range, the other colors are not important here.



Example: 75% power is obtained at  27.5" and 4800 rpm or

26" and 5000 or 24" and 5500 rpm.  The "standard" cruise setting

on Continental or Lycomings of 25 squared (or 2500 rpm (at) prop at

25" MP) doesn't work out for Rotax because 2500 rpm would be over

6000 engine rpm,  but by extrapolation would be over 80% power.



Or, if you set your prop to 5000 rpm for cruise, then you get 75% at

26" (only possible up 4000' DA), and 65% at 23" MAP.



While there are small inaccuracies due my simple model of the Otto

cycle, so far as I know, this table I created is the only published

attempt to provide guidance for 912s drivers with a constant speed

prop.



Cheers,

_________________
Ira N224XS

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum