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matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:25 am Post subject: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License

From the most recent  EAA e-Hotline newsletter:

 --------------------------------

 Question of the Week

My  medical examination is next month. If I "fail," I know I cannot fly as a sport  pilot using my driver's license for medical certification, but is this forever?  Could I wait, say six months or one year, and then apply for sport pilot? 

Answer:

The regulation states  that you cannot use your driver's license in lieu of an FAA medical certificate  if your most recent application for an FAA medical certificate was denied,  revoked, suspended or withdrawn by the FAA. There is no time limit on that  requirement, so it doesn't matter how long ago that denial, revocation,  suspension or withdrawal took place.

 The last time you applied for an FAA  medical certificate, no matter how long ago it was, must have resulted in the  regular or special issuance of a valid medical certificate. If that is not the  case you are required to re-apply for an FAA medical certificate and have a  valid medical issued in order to be able to take advantage of the possibility of  using your driver's license in lieu of the medical certificate in the  future.

 --------------------------------

  

 So for us "older"  pilots still enjoying the full privileges of a PPL and being honest and diligent  about keeping our medical certificate up-to-date; that sounds like if the  AME discovers an excluding medical condition during the medical exam the  only choices are to correct the condition or stop flying. However if the  condition is discovered before the exam we can apply for a Sport Pilot license,  or as I understand it simply continue flying on a PPL under Sport Pilot  restrictions, without divulging the medical condition.

  

 Does that make  sense? Or am I reading it wrong? So if I typically fly my Light Sport Kitfox  under Sport Pilot restrictions anyway should I actually *avoid* keeping my class  3 medical up to date? Before I get a litany of responses on the unconnectedness  of a Light Sport rated aircraft and a Sport Pilot license - that's already been  covered here and is not my point.

  

 My point is that I  thought I could continue flying as a PPL (sometimes I rent a Cessna) as long as  I pass my class 3 medical every 2 years, and switch to Sport Pilot if/when age  and conditions inevitably catch up with me. But the above quote seems to say  that if I do it that way I risk losing the privilege to fly forever if the  condition that causes me to fail my medical can't be corrected. However if I do  not take a medical, in effect "hiding" a condition from the FAA, I can continue  to fly as a Sport Pilot as long as I retain a driver's  license.

  

 Sounds like the FAA  is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal your condition to an AME then  you're too stupid to fly". Or should I shop for an AME that is sympathetic  enough to not send off the application to the FAA is there is a chance it would  fail, after the fact? Although last time I got my medical I applied online  before seeing the AME, and I think that might be the only way of doing it  soon.

  

 Any AMEs out there  got advice on this seeming contradiction in rules? I'm sure it's close to a lot  of people on this list. 

  

 Bob Brennan - N717GB

 ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa

  

   [quote][b]

vetdrem

Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 62

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:18 am Post subject: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License

I was doing exactly as you are considering doing.  I allowed my medical certificate to expire and flew my Taylorcraft and my kitfox (both meet the light sport regulations) as a "private pilot, exercising sport pilot privleges".



I could not fly anything that did not meet those requirements, but I didn't need to, anyway.  



I was considering a trip to Canada, and was going to get a seaplane rating, so I crossed my fingers, and went to the AME for an exam.  I passed and there was no problem, but if there had been, you are right, I would have had to correct the condition causing the failure before I could have flown again.



You seem to be looking at allowing your medical to expire as HIDING something from the FAA, but you really are not.  The rule says that if your state says that you are healthy enough to drive a car, then you are healthy enough to fly under the sport pilot rules.  If you have a condition that makes it unsafe for you to drive, then of course, you can not fly.  



If at a later time you decide that the sport pilot privileges are too restrictive (you want to rent that 152 or you want to fly at night, or something else) you can simply go to the local AME and renew your medical.



Actually, right now, I am flying as a Private Pilot, exercising sport pilot privileges, even though I have a valid medical.  I am required to wear glasses to be legal to fly, but I don't wear them for any other activity (including driving), so I fly without them, and if asked, I am legal because they are not required for my drivers license.



Louie

model 3 w/ 912ul  and a T-craft

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:55 am Post subject: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License

Thanks for the reply Louie, let me be a little more specific. And tell a

story, as older guys love to do 



I went through a stressful divorce a few years ago, and have a family

history of high blood pressure. Realising the stress of the time was not

healthy for me, and also realising that if I didn't control it I might end

up choking the sh*t out of someone who desperately needed it (joking of

course, sort of), I decided to join a local gym. Partly because it was a

healthy alternative and about the same price as the amount of alcohol I was

wanting to consume but also offered better opportunity to interact with fit

members of the opposite sex<g>.



The application to the gym included a blood pressure test; obviously due to

the stress it was above their limits, so I was denied the ability to use

their equipment to lower my blood pressure. More logical than the FAA

situation, but a catch-22 none the less. So I cut out all salt and fat, took

aspirin 3 times a day for a week, and went to my doctor to get a certified

reading within their limits. Oh, and also met a lovely lady at the gym who

just flew over from the UK (where I lived at the time) to visit, although no

plans for future commitments.



Story finished, I realise that the FAA requirements for blood pressure range

could make me fail my examination even though it is hereditary and I have

learned how to control it myself, but more importantly it would never

restrict my driver's license and hence flying as a sport pilot.



My reason for this post is not about my blood pressure, which I know if

worst case made me fail my medical I could go on FAA-approved medication and

re-take the exam and get a medical. Or dose up on aspirin again. My reason

for posting is - what if the AME finds something I can't easily control but

would not have affected my ability to fly as a Sport Pilot?



I know many older guys (many on this list) who know they have a condition

that would not allow them to pass a medical so they made the decision to fly

as a Sport Pilot, which BTW I think is a GREAT boon to allow older pilots to

fly under certain restrictions rather than as it was in the past. 



My question is that it does not seem logical, or fair, or encouraging

honesty on the part of the pilot; that if the uncorrectable condition is

discovered as a rejection of a medical certificate then the pilot can never

fly again, whereas if it is discovered as part of a routine medical then the

pilot can convert to lower privileges himself. It sounds like the FAA is

saying "what we don't know won't hurt us, only you; but if we do know then

we can't let you even make that decision". Or am I missing something?



It discourages guys like me from maintaining their medical certificate as a

means of knowing that nothing has changed since my last physical, and in

doing so discourages safety. It's tough enough to get a guy to go to the

doctor at all!



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa

--

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:58 am Post subject: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License

Bob,  

You don’t have to “apply” for a sport pilot license.  You just fly as a sport pilot with a private license.  

   

Randy  

Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot….  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan

 Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:25 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License  

  

     

From the most recent EAA e-Hotline newsletter:  

    

--------------------------------  

    

[b]Question of the Week[/b]

 My medical examination is next month. If I "fail," I know I cannot fly as a sport pilot using my driver's license for medical certification, but is this forever? Could I wait, say six months or one year, and then apply for sport pilot?   

Answer:

 The regulation states that you cannot use your driver's license in lieu of an FAA medical certificate if your most recent application for an FAA medical certificate was denied, revoked, suspended or withdrawn by the FAA. There is no time limit on that requirement, so it doesn't matter how long ago that denial, revocation, suspension or withdrawal took place.  

    

The last time you applied for an FAA medical certificate, no matter how long ago it was, must have resulted in the regular or special issuance of a valid medical certificate. If that is not the case you are required to re-apply for an FAA medical certificate and have a valid medical issued in order to be able to take advantage of the possibility of using your driver's license in lieu of the medical certificate in the future.  

    

--------------------------------  

    

   

    

So for us "older" pilots still enjoying the full privileges of a PPL and being honest and diligent about keeping our medical certificate up-to-date; that sounds like if the AME discovers an excluding medical condition during the medical exam the only choices are to correct the condition or stop flying. However if the condition is discovered before the exam we can apply for a Sport Pilot license, or as I understand it simply continue flying on a PPL under Sport Pilot restrictions, without divulging the medical condition.  

    

   

    

Does that make sense? Or am I reading it wrong? So if I typically fly my Light Sport Kitfox under Sport Pilot restrictions anyway should I actually *avoid* keeping my class 3 medical up to date? Before I get a litany of responses on the unconnectedness of a Light Sport rated aircraft and a Sport Pilot license - that's already been covered here and is not my point.  

    

   

    

My point is that I thought I could continue flying as a PPL (sometimes I rent a Cessna) as long as I pass my class 3 medical every 2 years, and switch to Sport Pilot if/when age and conditions inevitably catch up with me. But the above quote seems to say that if I do it that way I risk losing the privilege to fly forever if the condition that causes me to fail my medical can't be corrected. However if I do not take a medical, in effect "hiding" a condition from the FAA, I can continue to fly as a Sport Pilot as long as I retain a driver's license.  

    

   

    

Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal your condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should I shop for an AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the application to the FAA is there is a chance it would fail, after the fact? Although last time I got my medical I applied online before seeing the AME, and I think that might be the only way of doing it soon.  

    

   

    

Any AMEs out there got advice on this seeming contradiction in rules? I'm sure it's close to a lot of people on this list.   

    

   

    

Bob Brennan - N717GB  

    

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated  

    

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox  

    

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop  

    

Wrightsville Pa  

    

   

   	  Quote: 	
		           -- Please Support Your Lists This Month --           (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)November is the Annual List Fund Raiser.  Click onthe Contribution link below to find out more aboutthis year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts!List Contribution Web Site:--> http://www.matronics.com/contribution 	
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       [quote][b]

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:59 am Post subject: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License

At 06:24 AM 12/26/2008, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal your condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should I shop for an AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the application to the FAA is there is a chance it would fail, after the fact? Although last time I got my medical I applied online before seeing the AME, and I think that might be the only way of doing it soon. 	


 Bob,

         From all I've read over the last couple of years you've got it completely right, and that is one of the most severe criticisms the Sport Pilot  regulations have had to endure. I don't think it's as onerous as it sounds, since I never cease to be amazed at the medical conditions people overcome to get their Class 3 back. And all you have to do is get it back once to revert to Sport Pilot licensing. I suspect that what's going to happen is the AMEs will figure out how to "pre-test" people who request it. I do this with my cars. For a little more money my smog station pre-tests the car, and if it looks like it's going to fail excessively they will hand it back to me without running the official smog test. That way I don't get labeled a "gross-polluter" and have to jump through a bunch of hoops to get the car smogged. Right now AMEs, once they initiate the medical review process, must follow through with the FAA, there's no stopping a failing review. What I don't know is what the FAA has tasked them with, ethically, with regards to the new Sport Pilot license. Are they prohibited from giving a physical exam that covers the Class 3, but is not FAA sanctioned? (Of course, most of the Class 3 physical exam is provided by the examinee. You fill out the paperwork and certify it. If you know you're going to write something suspect you're going to want to first pose a hypothetical question to the AME before you fill out the paperwork. If the answer comes back negative, I guess you're a Sport Pilot.)



 

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade

 100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar    [quote][b]

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:01 am Post subject: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License

Hi Bob,



You are right in your statements. One way some pilots check to see if they will fail the flight medical is to take advantage of your personal medical insurance free physical by your personal doctor. Most insurance companies offer one free physical per year for you and your wife.   Use it. If you pass that one ok then you can go get your PPL medical. If you know you can't pass then don't get the PPL medical and start flying LSA. It's not a perfect system, but is all we have. 

You are right that if you lose your PPL medical then you would have to get it back before going to the LSA license. 



Once we get past 21 years of age it's all down hill.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:06 am Post subject: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License

 	  Quote: 	
		  Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal your condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". 	




Yes it sounds like that is what they are saying.  One explanation for that wording in the sport pilot rules is that the FAA realizes it would be contradictory to deny pilot privileges with one hand...a failed medical...and give them back with the other...sport pilot rules.



If you go ahead and let your medical lapse you can continue to fly under sport pilot rules.  The FAA is off the hook because they have not denied your medical and your drivers license fulfills the  physical requirements to fly under sport pilot rules.



I would agree that someone who thinks they may fail an FAA medical, takes that medical even though they fly LSA eligible airplanes only, and has no compelling need to maintain a medical, is probably to stupid to be allowed to fly.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

Last edited by Tom Jones on Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:14 am; edited 1 time in total

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:08 am Post subject: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License

Randy,

  

 Thanks for your response. I realise that as a PPL I do not  need to apply to fly as a Sport Pilot, all I need is my PPL, a valid driver's  license, and to stay within the restrictions of the Sport Pilot  privilege.

  

 But my point was that  it seems that if I discover I can no longer get a class 3 medical by failing  that medical then the choice to fly as a Sport Pilot is no longer available to  me. Ever. As long as the condition that denied me the medical persists. Whereas  pilots who chose to stop getting a medical, and in effect "hide" the condition  from the FAA, can continue to fly.

  

 Would you mind elaborating your own reason for flying  as "Private  flying last 4 years as a sport pilot…."? I assume you chose to stop  applying for a medical rather than being denied?  

  

 bob

 



   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy  Daughenbaugh

Sent: 26 December 2008 10:57 am

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Full PPL vs Sport  Pilot License

 

  

Bob, 

You don’t have to  “apply” for a sport pilot license.  You just fly as a sport pilot with a  private license. 

  

Randy 

Private flying last 4  years as a sport pilot…. 

     

 

From:  owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan

Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:25  AM

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Full PPL vs Sport  Pilot License

 

   

From the most recent EAA e-Hotline  newsletter:

  

--------------------------------

  

[b]Question of the  Week[/b]

My medical  examination is next month. If I "fail," I know I cannot fly as a sport pilot  using my driver's license for medical certification, but is this forever? Could  I wait, say six months or one year, and then apply for sport pilot?   

Answer:

The regulation  states that you cannot use your driver's license in lieu of an FAA medical  certificate if your most recent application for an FAA medical certificate was  denied, revoked, suspended or withdrawn by the FAA. There is no time limit on  that requirement, so it doesn't matter how long ago that denial, revocation,  suspension or withdrawal took place.

  

The last time you  applied for an FAA medical certificate, no matter how long ago it was, must have  resulted in the regular or special issuance of a valid medical certificate. If  that is not the case you are required to re-apply for an FAA medical certificate  and have a valid medical issued in order to be able to take advantage of the  possibility of using your driver's license in lieu of the medical certificate in  the future.

  

--------------------------------

  

 

  

So for us "older" pilots still  enjoying the full privileges of a PPL and being honest and diligent about  keeping our medical certificate up-to-date; that sounds like if the  AME discovers an excluding medical condition during the medical exam the  only choices are to correct the condition or stop flying. However if the  condition is discovered before the exam we can apply for a Sport Pilot license,  or as I understand it simply continue flying on a PPL under Sport Pilot  restrictions, without divulging the medical  condition.

  

 

  

Does that make sense? Or am I  reading it wrong? So if I typically fly my Light Sport Kitfox under Sport Pilot  restrictions anyway should I actually *avoid* keeping my class 3 medical up to  date? Before I get a litany of responses on the unconnectedness of a Light Sport  rated aircraft and a Sport Pilot license - that's already been covered here and  is not my point.

  

 

  

My point is that I thought I could  continue flying as a PPL (sometimes I rent a Cessna) as long as I pass my class  3 medical every 2 years, and switch to Sport Pilot if/when age and conditions  inevitably catch up with me. But the above quote seems to say that if I do it  that way I risk losing the privilege to fly forever if the condition that causes  me to fail my medical can't be corrected. However if I do not take a medical, in  effect "hiding" a condition from the FAA, I can continue to fly as a Sport Pilot  as long as I retain a driver's license.

  

 

  

Sounds like the FAA is saying "if  you're stupid enough to reveal your condition to an AME then you're too stupid  to fly". Or should I shop for an AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off  the application to the FAA is there is a chance it would fail, after the fact?  Although last time I got my medical I applied online before seeing the AME, and  I think that might be the only way of doing it  soon.

  

 

  

Any AMEs out there got advice on this seeming  contradiction in rules? I'm sure it's close to a lot of people on this list.  

  

 

  

Bob  Brennan - N717GB

  

ELSA  Repairman, inspection rated

  

1991  UK Model 2 ELSA  Kitfox

  

Rotax 582  with 3 blade prop

  

Wrightsville  Pa

  

 

 	  Quote: 	
		           -- Please Support Your Lists This Month --           (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)November is the Annual List Fund Raiser.  Click onthis year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts!List Contribution Web Site:--> http://www.matronics.com/contribution 	
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   [quote][b]

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:24 am Post subject: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License

Guy,

  

 I was *very* lucky to get an understanding AME who was a  pilot himself when I renewed my medical after many years of being in the UK. The  new online application had many questions, and being the honest (and hence  potentially stupid) guy that I am it asked if I *ever* had any debilitating  diseases. I had a severe case of CFIDS (Chronic Fatigue) more than 20 years ago  but have been in complete remission ever since, but I ticked "yes". The AME  advised me that it might trigger a rejection and used his magical editing  privileges to correct it to a "no" online at FAA.org, something I was not  allowed to undo. 

  

 At the time I was not aware of the dire consequences of  such honesty and even now I get an 8 on the 1-10 Sphincter Scale when I think I  might have lost the privilege of being a pilot forever for something that was  cured of twenty years ago. The CFIDS, not the stupidity, obviously...  ;-o

  

 Just thought the list should be *very* aware of this  particular "hoop". It's one of those fiery ones.

  

  Bob Brennan - N717GB

 ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa

   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy  Buchanan

Sent: 26 December 2008 10:58 am

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Full PPL vs Sport  Pilot License

 

At 06:24 AM 12/26/2008, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Sounds like the FAA is    saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal your condition to an AME then you're    too stupid to fly". Or should I shop for an AME that is sympathetic enough to    not send off the application to the FAA is there is a chance it would fail,    after the fact? Although last time I got my medical I applied online before    seeing the AME, and I think that might be the only way of doing it  soon. 	


Bob,

        From  all I've read over the last couple of years you've got it completely right, and  that is one of the most severe criticisms the Sport Pilot  regulations have  had to endure. I don't think it's as onerous as it sounds, since I never cease  to be amazed at the medical conditions people overcome to get their Class 3  back. And all you have to do is get it back once to revert to Sport Pilot  licensing. I suspect that what's going to happen is the AMEs will figure out how  to "pre-test" people who request it. I do this with my cars. For a little more  money my smog station pre-tests the car, and if it looks like it's going to fail  excessively they will hand it back to me without running the official smog test.  That way I don't get labeled a "gross-polluter" and have to jump through a bunch  of hoops to get the car smogged. Right now AMEs, once they initiate the medical  review process, must follow through with the FAA, there's no stopping a failing  review. What I don't know is what the FAA has tasked them with, ethically, with  regards to the new Sport Pilot license. Are they prohibited from giving a  physical exam that covers the Class 3, but is not FAA sanctioned? (Of course,  most of the Class 3 physical exam is provided by the examinee. You fill out the  paperwork and certify it. If you know you're going to write something suspect  you're going to want to first pose a hypothetical question to the AME before you  fill out the paperwork. If the answer comes back negative, I guess you're a  Sport Pilot.)



 

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp  3 blade

100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar [quote]



href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

[b]

larry huntley

Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 149

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:31 am Post subject: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License

Bob,

   I flew for a couple of years as a SP because  I was flying a Fox and a Champ. A friend dropped off his Pacer and asked me to  exercise it occasionally,so I went for a medical again.My Tripacer will be  flying again after a 3 yr rebuild,so I will maintain PP. Otherwise I would fly  as SP anyway ,so why bother.   

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Larry Huntley,Dundee,NY
Kitfox 4-1200 N234EE
EA81,AMAX Redrive Warp 3 blade

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:34 am Post subject: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License

Roger,



I need to find a personal physician who knows the complete requirements of a

class 3 airman's medical certificate then, and in my experience those are

AMEs in the first place. But I do appreciate your point. And as Guy pointed

out - does the FAA allow an AME to do a "pre-test"? I was extremely lucky in

the UK to have a CFI who gave me a pre-GFT (General Flight Test) before a

chargeable one. He said if I pass the pre-test I wouldn't need to redo it. I

had several pre-tests... but was only charged once. 



BTW what is the point of the drop-your-shorts and turn-you-head-and-cough

part of the class 3 exam?? If I didn't have 'em I wouldn't have become a

pilot in the first place! And is a full rectal exam (optional I was told, I

opted NOT!) really necessary to be a pilot? Again, it's obvious you have to

have one to be one...



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa



--

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:42 am Post subject: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License

Larry,

  

 "why bother" was something I always thought was an  available option, but it seems that if you, or any PPL-rated pilot, decides to  re-validate the privileges with a class 3 medical; not only risks losing the  privileges of his PPL but also his Sport Pilot privileges and the ability to fly  at all, possibly forever.

  

 That bothers me, but now that I am aware of it I will be  careful. Just posting so others are also aware, or can offer a more logical  alternative.

  

  Bob Brennan - N717GB

 ELSA Repairman, inspection  rated

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA  Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade  prop

 Wrightsville  Pa

   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry  Huntley

Sent: 26 December 2008 11:31 am

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Full PPL vs Sport  Pilot License

 

 Bob,

   I flew for a couple of years as a SP because  I was flying a Fox and a Champ. A friend dropped off his Pacer and asked me to  exercise it occasionally,so I went for a medical again.My Tripacer will be  flying again after a 3 yr rebuild,so I will maintain PP. Otherwise I would fly  as SP anyway ,so why bother.   

 [quote]   ---

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:57 am Post subject: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License

Bob,   

I built my series 5 (series 7 firewall foreward) light and assigned it a weight of 1320 so it would comply with the sport pilot regs.  I see no reason to keep my private active so I simply save the expense of the medical.  I think I could pass it now, but in a year?  5 years?     

   

I agree.  It seems like a dumb situation.  As someone said, if you are dumb enough to go for a physical you can’t pass, maybe you shouldn’t be flying….  But, I think I have put myself into trying to rationalize the rule.  Maybe I am the dumb one…  

   

Thanks for the CFIDS story.  I would not have thought of that.  

   

Randy  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan

 Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 9:08 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License  

  

   

Randy,  

   

Thanks for your response. I realise that as a PPL I do not need to apply to fly as a Sport Pilot, all I need is my PPL, a valid driver's license, and to stay within the restrictions of the Sport Pilot privilege.    

   

    

But my point was that it seems that if I discover I can no longer get a class 3 medical by failing that medical then the choice to fly as a Sport Pilot is no longer available to me. Ever. As long as the condition that denied me the medical persists. Whereas pilots who chose to stop getting a medical, and in effect "hide" the condition from the FAA, can continue to fly.  

    

   

    

Would you mind elaborating your own reason for flying as "Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot…."? I assume you chose to stop applying for a medical rather than being denied?   

    

   

    

bob  

    

   

      

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Daughenbaugh

 Sent: 26 December 2008 10:57 am

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License  

Bob,  

You don’t have to “apply” for a sport pilot license.  You just fly as a sport pilot with a private license.  

   

Randy  

Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot….  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan

 Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:25 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License  

  

     

From the most recent EAA e-Hotline newsletter:  

    

--------------------------------  

    

[b]Question of the Week[/b]

 My medical examination is next month. If I "fail," I know I cannot fly as a sport pilot using my driver's license for medical certification, but is this forever? Could I wait, say six months or one year, and then apply for sport pilot?   

Answer:

 The regulation states that you cannot use your driver's license in lieu of an FAA medical certificate if your most recent application for an FAA medical certificate was denied, revoked, suspended or withdrawn by the FAA. There is no time limit on that requirement, so it doesn't matter how long ago that denial, revocation, suspension or withdrawal took place.  

    

The last time you applied for an FAA medical certificate, no matter how long ago it was, must have resulted in the regular or special issuance of a valid medical certificate. If that is not the case you are required to re-apply for an FAA medical certificate and have a valid medical issued in order to be able to take advantage of the possibility of using your driver's license in lieu of the medical certificate in the future.  

    

--------------------------------  

    

   

    

So for us "older" pilots still enjoying the full privileges of a PPL and being honest and diligent about keeping our medical certificate up-to-date; that sounds like if the AME discovers an excluding medical condition during the medical exam the only choices are to correct the condition or stop flying. However if the condition is discovered before the exam we can apply for a Sport Pilot license, or as I understand it simply continue flying on a PPL under Sport Pilot restrictions, without divulging the medical condition.  

    

   

    

Does that make sense? Or am I reading it wrong? So if I typically fly my Light Sport Kitfox under Sport Pilot restrictions anyway should I actually *avoid* keeping my class 3 medical up to date? Before I get a litany of responses on the unconnectedness of a Light Sport rated aircraft and a Sport Pilot license - that's already been covered here and is not my point.  

    

   

    

My point is that I thought I could continue flying as a PPL (sometimes I rent a Cessna) as long as I pass my class 3 medical every 2 years, and switch to Sport Pilot if/when age and conditions inevitably catch up with me. But the above quote seems to say that if I do it that way I risk losing the privilege to fly forever if the condition that causes me to fail my medical can't be corrected. However if I do not take a medical, in effect "hiding" a condition from the FAA, I can continue to fly as a Sport Pilot as long as I retain a driver's license.  

    

   

    

Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal your condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should I shop for an AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the application to the FAA is there is a chance it would fail, after the fact? Although last time I got my medical I applied online before seeing the AME, and I think that might be the only way of doing it soon.  

    

   

    

Any AMEs out there got advice on this seeming contradiction in rules? I'm sure it's close to a lot of people on this list.   

    

   

    

Bob Brennan - N717GB  

    

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated  

    

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox  

    

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop  

    

Wrightsville Pa  

    

   

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        [quote][b]

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 9:21 am Post subject: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License

Randy,

  

 I am not dumb enough <  > to take a medical that I  cannot pass, but it's the things you didn't think of that get you in the  butt.

  

 Another story, sad but true, of a former pilot I knew who  was banned from flying because he checked "yes" on the "have you ever blacked  out?" box on the medical. According to him he had broken his prize meerschaum  pipe one day and fixed it with a bit of epoxy. He smoked it too soon, inhaled  bad fumes, blacked out and was taken to the emergency room and given a  clean bill of health. Yes he may have been dumb for smoking epoxy fumes and  dumber still for admitting it on an FAA form, but the dumbest assumption was  that the FAA would disregard his dumbness in either situation. Last I heard he  was still fighting to get his license back after 4 years of failed  attempts.

  

 Maybe it is better he was not allowed to fly, being  triple-dumb, but hey we all can be dumb sometimes!

  

 bob



   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy  Daughenbaugh

Sent: 26 December 2008 11:56 am

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Full PPL vs Sport  Pilot License

 

  

Bob,   

I built my series 5  (series 7 firewall foreward) light and assigned it a  weight of 1320 so it would comply with the sport pilot regs.  I see no  reason to keep my private active so I simply save the expense of the  medical.  I think I could pass it  now, but in a year?  5 years?    

  

I agree.  It seems like a dumb situation.  As someone said, if you are dumb enough  to go for a physical you can’t pass, maybe you shouldn’t be flying….  But, I think I have put myself into  trying to rationalize the rule.   Maybe I am the dumb one… 

  

Thanks for the CFIDS  story.  I would not have thought of  that. 

  

Randy 

     

 

From:  owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan

Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 9:08  AM

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Full PPL vs Sport  Pilot License

 

  

Randy, 

  

Thanks for your  response. I realise that as a PPL I do not need to apply to fly as a Sport  Pilot, all I need is my PPL, a valid driver's license, and to stay within the  restrictions of the Sport Pilot privilege.  

 

  

But my point was that  it seems that if I discover I can no longer get a class 3 medical by failing  that medical then the choice to fly as a Sport Pilot is no longer available to  me. Ever. As long as the condition that denied me the medical persists. Whereas  pilots who chose to stop getting a medical, and in effect "hide" the condition  from the FAA, can continue to fly.

  

 

  

Would you mind  elaborating your own reason for flying as "Private flying last 4  years as a sport pilot…."? I assume you chose  to stop applying for a medical rather than being denied?  

  

 

  

bob

  

 

   

 

From:  owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Daughenbaugh

Sent: 26 December 2008 10:57 am

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Full PPL vs Sport  Pilot License 

Bob, 

You don’t have to  “apply” for a sport pilot license.   You just fly as a sport pilot with a private  license. 

  

Randy 

Private flying last 4  years as a sport pilot…. 

     

 

From:  owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan

Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:25  AM

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Full PPL vs Sport  Pilot License

 

   

From the most recent EAA e-Hotline  newsletter:

  

--------------------------------

  

[b]Question of the  Week[/b]

My medical  examination is next month. If I "fail," I know I cannot fly as a sport pilot  using my driver's license for medical certification, but is this forever? Could  I wait, say six months or one year, and then apply for sport pilot?   

Answer:

The regulation  states that you cannot use your driver's license in lieu of an FAA medical  certificate if your most recent application for an FAA medical certificate was  denied, revoked, suspended or withdrawn by the FAA. There is no time limit on  that requirement, so it doesn't matter how long ago that denial, revocation,  suspension or withdrawal took place.

  

The last time you  applied for an FAA medical certificate, no matter how long ago it was, must have  resulted in the regular or special issuance of a valid medical certificate. If  that is not the case you are required to re-apply for an FAA medical certificate  and have a valid medical issued in order to be able to take advantage of the  possibility of using your driver's license in lieu of the medical certificate in  the future.

  

--------------------------------

  

 

  

So for us "older" pilots still  enjoying the full privileges of a PPL and being honest and diligent about  keeping our medical certificate up-to-date; that sounds like if the  AME discovers an excluding medical condition during the medical exam the  only choices are to correct the condition or stop flying. However if the  condition is discovered before the exam we can apply for a Sport Pilot license,  or as I understand it simply continue flying on a PPL under Sport Pilot  restrictions, without divulging the medical  condition.

  

 

  

Does that make sense? Or am I  reading it wrong? So if I typically fly my Light Sport Kitfox under Sport Pilot  restrictions anyway should I actually *avoid* keeping my class 3 medical up to  date? Before I get a litany of responses on the unconnectedness of a Light Sport  rated aircraft and a Sport Pilot license - that's already been covered here and  is not my point.

  

 

  

My point is that I thought I could  continue flying as a PPL (sometimes I rent a Cessna) as long as I pass my class  3 medical every 2 years, and switch to Sport Pilot if/when age and conditions  inevitably catch up with me. But the above quote seems to say that if I do it  that way I risk losing the privilege to fly forever if the condition that causes  me to fail my medical can't be corrected. However if I do not take a medical, in  effect "hiding" a condition from the FAA, I can continue to fly as a Sport Pilot  as long as I retain a driver's license.

  

 

  

Sounds like the FAA is saying "if  you're stupid enough to reveal your condition to an AME then you're too stupid  to fly". Or should I shop for an AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off  the application to the FAA is there is a chance it would fail, after the fact?  Although last time I got my medical I applied online before seeing the AME, and  I think that might be the only way of doing it  soon.

  

 

  

Any AMEs out there got advice on this seeming  contradiction in rules? I'm sure it's close to a lot of people on this list.  

  

 

  

Bob  Brennan - N717GB

  

ELSA  Repairman, inspection rated

  

1991  UK Model 2 ELSA  Kitfox

  

Rotax 582  with 3 blade prop

  

Wrightsville  Pa

  

 

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   [quote][b]

larry huntley

Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 149

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 9:24 am Post subject: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License

Sorry Bob,

  What I meant was that in my case, if I didn't  fly the Tripacer,"why bother" ,with the medical. I will just keep flying as a  SP. You are correct that if you fail the class 3,you cannot fly SP. If you fail  the Class 3 and it is because of something you can fix or be treated for and get  reinstated,you are home free. Next time around you can become a SP.

   Another thought . An FAA person told me some  time ago that if you feel you may have a problem,go for a class 2 medical. If  you pass it great. If not ask your ME if he thinks you could pass a class 3. If  he says no, exam is over. You did not fail a class 3 medical. You are a Sport  Pilot.   Larry Huntley KF 4-1200,Soob,500+

  

   . 

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Larry Huntley,Dundee,NY
Kitfox 4-1200 N234EE
EA81,AMAX Redrive Warp 3 blade

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 9:36 am Post subject: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>



 Thanks for the reply Louie, let me be a little more specific. And  

 tell a

 story, as older guys love to do 


	


WHAAAAAAAT???? ....where'd you hear that? : )

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

do not archive

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 9:55 am Post subject: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License

Would you like to hear a story about how some guys on this list tell stories

Lynn? 



Fortunately most old guys like stories because it reminds them of, and gives

them permission to tell, stories of their own!



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 12:25 pm Post subject: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License

Yes, please...I think we need to run them out of town on a rail...or  

tar and feather them....or something drastic....of all the  

nerve...telling stories on a builders help list...tsk, tsk, tsk...



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

do not archive



On Dec 26, 2008, at 12:54 PM, Bob Brennan wrote:



[quote] 

 <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>



 Would you like to hear a story about how some guys on this list  

 tell stories

 Lynn? 



 Fortunately most old guys like stories because it reminds them of,  

 and gives

 them permission to tell, stories of their own!



 Bob Brennan - N717GB

 ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa



 --

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

MDKitfox(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License

Bob,



As a GA and airline pilot, I've had a special issuance (1st class) for over 20 years and high blood pressure to boot.  The FAA has made it very easy for a pilot to get BP meds because they realized guys were avoiding medical treatment of this disease out of fear of losing their certificate.  The consequences of not taking the meds were too dangerous.  Almost any BP med is now on the FAA approved list.  They only ask for a pilot to ascertain any side effects and ensure they don't affect flying.  (By the way, the same goes for sleep apnea.  It's not that difficult to regain certification, just $$, don't ask how I know this:-)

I understand the salt, fat reduction, and the exercise regimen you discussed, and that's great, but I've never heard any doctor recommend aspirin 3 times a day to reduce BP.  The side effects of aspirin are serious; internal bleeding, gastric disorders, etc.  I hope you're not still doing that.

As for Sport Pilot, the feds were backed into a corner.  Sport Pilot was supported by the industry and touted by the FAA as a cost reduction to get more people into flying, not as means for us old guys to skirt medical certification conditions.  Thus, if you know you have a disqualifying condition, and the FAA doesn't, what can they do?  However, once they know, what can they do?    Now you and they both know your condition and they can't legally, turn their back to it, as the rule is currently written.  Also. it's not likely the rule will change due to the time, cost, and other problems involved in fixing it.  It's sad it can't be fixed, but it is what it is.

I would recommend establishing a good relationship with your AME and get a physical by him or her in advance,maybe 'within minutes' of the flight physical.  If you pass fine, if it doesn't, stop there.  If the problem is such that immediate action is required then so be it.  Better to live and not fly.  Go get healed, come back and try again.  The relationship 'thing' can't be overemphasized.  Most AME's want you to fly and come back frequently for more flight physicals.  They also want you to be safe.  Most will always work with you, if not, FIRE him and go find another.

If you're a member, you can always call the EAA board of medical advisors with your questions.  They will give you an unbiased answer and you can do this without fear of repercussion.  The same is true for AOPA.  Use these folks, as they are there for you.  Heck, your dues are paying for this service.

Just my two cents.



 Rick Weiss

N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS

SkyStar S/N 1

Port Orange, FL )

DO NOT ARCHIVE

 



On Dec 26, 2008, at 10:55 AM, Bob Brennan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  So I cut out all salt and fat, took

aspirin 3 times a day for a week, and went to my doctor to get a certified

reading within their limits. 	


=  [quote][b]

michaelgibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:14 pm Post subject: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License

Rick sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I would recommend establishing a good relationship with your AME...


	


I agree completely.  My AME is a former corporate jet pilot turned neurologist turned AME.  He WANTS me to pass my physical.  He WANTS to keep me in the left seat.  If your doctor is busy looking for reasons to ground you or doesn't care one way or the other, it's time for a new doctor.



Mike G.

N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

Phoenix, AZ

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