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lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:43 am Post subject: HKS flight

After I finished my observations about the use of ethanol,  I stuck my head out the door to find that the temps had risen to 47 degrees and  there was no wind, at least on the ground anyway, so I got my flying suit on and  rolled Dart out of the hanger.

  

 If you remember I was interested to see what difference if  any flying at 80 percent power would be compared to max cruise of 5800 rpm. I  flew the same course that I did yesterday, under fairly close conditions. There  was still a head wind component of about 10 mph. I saw GPS speeds of 63 MPH on  the trip up to 73 across the top of the triangle that I was flying to 84 MPH on  the down wind side. I flew the course in 24 minutes compared to 30 yesterday. I  burned just a smidge less gas doing it. 1.5 gallons. Not sure why this happens  to me, Roger Hankins with a Firestar I says that he can save gas by throttling  back, but I never could even with the 503. The fuel burn is always the same. I  guess it just means that I am polluting the world less or at least no more,by  flying faster. I can live with that.

  

 Oh, this time I took my MP3 player with me and stuck the  buds in my ears under the headset. (Sig 45 ) to get some idea of how loud I  would need to turn them up to be able to hear it. I am happy to admit that the  volume was only a little more than I would have turned them on the ground.  

 Larry C, Oregon

   [quote][b]

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Jimmy Young

Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 182
Location: Missouri City, TX

Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:31 pm Post subject: Re: HKS flight

Larry,

Those are really good #'s on your Firestar. If I see an 84 mph ground speed on the GPS and do a 180 turn, it will drop to somewhere around 30 mph. I've never done better than average maybe a 53-57 mph IAS in mine. 



If you get a chance, post some more photos of the completed installation for us.

_________________
Jimmy Young
Missouri City, TX
Kolb FS II/HKS 700

HShack(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:36 pm Post subject: HKS flight

Since the list is kinda' quiet, I will post some of my speeds [calm air,  gps verified].

  

 5600 rpm- 65 mph

 6500 rpm [wot]- 81 mph

  

 Except for a local FS II with 582, my speeds seem a good bit higher than  other FS II's around here.  I also outclimb them.

  

 I believe it's because of my setup; that being a "C" box, 3.47:1.   & 68" 3 blade Kiev prop.

  

 Oh, & maybe the VG's have something to do with it [hehehe].

  

  

 Howard  Shackleford

FS II

SC   

 do not archive

  

  In a message dated 1/12/2009 9:32:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  jdy100(at)comcast.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Larry,

Those are really good #'s on your Firestar. If I see an 84    mph ground speed on the GPS and do a 180 turn, it will drop to somewhere    around 30 mph. I've never done better than average maybe a 53-57 mph IAS in    mine. 

	






A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.  See yours in just 2 easy steps!

  [quote][b]

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:41 pm Post subject: HKS flight

Today  dawned bright and clear. A little cold, but  the sun would soon warm it up to low 50's. A veritable heat wave for this time  of year. The wind stayed down, so I rolled dart out of the hanger and made a  trip to Rome to buy a hunting and fishing license. ( as good a reason to fly as  any) Of course I am still in the test phase and this is the first time that wind  has not been a factor in flying. The pictures will show you what the engine was  doing on this trip. The first picture 0344 gives you the status of the engine at  max cruise. The 0348 shows what the GPS is reading. This is as correct as I can  make it. You will notice that there is no perceptible climb, and that speed  seems to be normal for that RPM. It is also about 12 MPH faster that I could  achieve with the 503. 

  

 I landed at Rome on their ( mud hole) airstrip, and got my  license. I checked my fuel burn and found that I had traveled 20 air miles and  burned one gallon of fuel. On the way back home, I did vary a bit from my flight  plan and flew down the River a ways. ( no body is perfect) The view of the  desert and the Steen's in the back ground were too much to resist. (0352) Of  course one more picture of the Steen's was in order as well.

  

 On landing I found that I had flown 48 minutes and burned  2 and 3/4 gallons of gas. After the initial pictures of the max cruise, I  throttled back to 5300 and cruised along at about 63 MPH. I had traveled 52  miles.

 Larry C, Oregon

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NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:38 pm Post subject: HKS flight

Larry/All

  

 Great report. 

  

 The HKS is a great engine. I'm a bit surprised  there aren't more flying. I saw a nice Kolb Slingshot at Sun N Fun last year  with a HKS. Rotax makes some great engines but with almost total dominance of  the market they have gotten out of hand with their pricing and have failed to  produce a small 4 stroke for the smaller airplanes.

  

 There are a number of good engines out there as  Rotax alternatives. There are VWs, BMWs, HKSs, GEOs, Jabarus, The Big Twin and a few others. We have had a few reports  from flyers but we need more. Seems like I had a promise from a BMW flyer  to give us a report. Tell us about your Non Rotax engines on your  Kolb.

  

 Looks like it is a race to see who is the second  flyer to get their VW powered Kolb airbore. I'm pulling for both of  you.

  

 Also sorry about a previous post that was supposed  to be off list.

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

 [quote]   ---

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:36 pm Post subject: HKS flight

Larry --



I love it when you talk HKS!     I've been told that the HKS, in a hot environment (like down where I am, SE Texas, in the summer) isn't as good because, unlike the Rotax, there's no forced air keeping it cool.  Have you ever heard of such a thing about HKS engines, that they'd overheat in hot environments?

 

  -- Robert

On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 5:39 PM, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com (lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com)> wrote:

[quote]        Today  dawned bright and clear. A little cold, but  the sun would soon warm it up to low 50's. A veritable heat wave for this time  of year. The wind stayed down, so I rolled dart out of the hanger and made a  trip to Rome to buy a hunting and fishing license. ( as good a reason to fly as  any) Of course I am still in the test phase and this is the first time that wind  has not been a factor in flying. The pictures will show you what the engine was  doing on this trip. The first picture 0344 gives you the status of the engine at  max cruise. The 0348 shows what the GPS is reading. This is as correct as I can  make it. You will notice that there is no perceptible climb, and that speed  seems to be normal for that RPM. It is also about 12 MPH faster that I could  achieve with the 503. 

  

 I landed at Rome on their ( mud hole) airstrip, and got my  license. I checked my fuel burn and found that I had traveled 20 air miles and  burned one gallon of fuel. On the way back home, I did vary a bit from my flight  plan and flew down the River a ways. ( no body is perfect) The view of the  desert and the Steen's in the back ground were too much to resist. (0352) Of  course one more picture of the Steen's was in order as well.

  

 On landing I found that I had flown 48 minutes and burned  2 and 3/4 gallons of gas. After the initial pictures of the max cruise, I  throttled back to 5300 and cruised along at about 63 MPH. I had traveled 52  miles.

 Larry C, Oregon



 [b]

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:01 pm Post subject: HKS flight

[quote] ---

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aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:22 pm Post subject: HKS flight

Robert, I'm in Kansas. It gets pretty hot here and I don't have any problems. CHT's run 300 to 305 in cruise, limit is 338. EGT's run mid 1100's to 1200. Oil runs in the 180's.



Rick

 

On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 7:35 PM, Robert Laird <rlaird(at)cavediver.com (rlaird(at)cavediver.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Larry --



I love it when you talk HKS!     I've been told that the HKS, in a hot environment (like down where I am, SE Texas, in the summer) isn't as good because, unlike the Rotax, there's no forced air keeping it cool.  Have you ever heard of such a thing about HKS engines, that they'd overheat in hot environments?

  

  -- Robert

On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 5:39 PM, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com (lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		          Today  dawned bright and clear. A little cold, but  the sun would soon warm it up to low 50's. A veritable heat wave for this time  of year. The wind stayed down, so I rolled dart out of the hanger and made a  trip to Rome to buy a hunting and fishing license. ( as good a reason to fly as  any) Of course I am still in the test phase and this is the first time that wind  has not been a factor in flying. The pictures will show you what the engine was  doing on this trip. The first picture 0344 gives you the status of the engine at  max cruise. The 0348 shows what the GPS is reading. This is as correct as I can  make it. You will notice that there is no perceptible climb, and that speed  seems to be normal for that RPM. It is also about 12 MPH faster that I could  achieve with the 503. 

  

 I landed at Rome on their ( mud hole) airstrip, and got my  license. I checked my fuel burn and found that I had traveled 20 air miles and  burned one gallon of fuel. On the way back home, I did vary a bit from my flight  plan and flew down the River a ways. ( no body is perfect) The view of the  desert and the Steen's in the back ground were too much to resist. (0352) Of  course one more picture of the Steen's was in order as well.

  

 On landing I found that I had flown 48 minutes and burned  2 and 3/4 gallons of gas. After the initial pictures of the max cruise, I  throttled back to 5300 and cruised along at about 63 MPH. I had traveled 52  miles.

 Larry C, Oregon



 	




   [/b] 	
[b]

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:31 pm Post subject: HKS flight

But what about when taxiing and idling on the ground when it's hot outside?



On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 9:22 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Robert, I'm in Kansas. It gets pretty hot here and I don't have any problems. CHT's run 300 to 305 in cruise, limit is 338. EGT's run mid 1100's to 1200. Oil runs in the 180's. 



Rick

 

	
 



  [quote][b]

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:11 am Post subject: HKS flight

Hi Larry,

 nice pics but I notice that you had nearly 5000 on  the altimeter. I assume that is not AGL. Is it usual to use that setting.? I  have noticed before that most posts on the lists have very high figures and have  always assumed they are not AGL

  

 I always set AGL unless going x-country above  3000ft and then set Regional

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:35 am Post subject: HKS flight

-18  without a wind chill in Maine this morning  in the northeast  not to much flying will be done this week  

  

 Ellery in Maine 

 do not archive

  

  

  In a message dated 1/14/2009 10:32:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  rlaird(at)cavediver.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  But what    about when taxiing and idling on the ground when it's hot outside?



   On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 9:22 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)>  wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		  Robert,      I'm in Kansas. It gets pretty hot here and I don't have any problems. CHT's      run 300 to 305 in cruise, limit is 338. EGT's run mid 1100's to 1200. Oil      runs in the 180's.      



     Rick



	
    



 	  Quote: 	
		  



="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	




A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above.  See yours in just 2 easy steps!

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aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:24 am Post subject: HKS flight

Robert, In the summer the wind here is generally out of the south so I have a 1/2 mile taxi from my back yard to the departure end of runway 17. Temps are usually still not up to takeoff requirements (CHT > 200 deg. F, oil > 122 deg. F) although it's the oil that always causes the wait.  >From HKS Operation Manual page 13:

5.3. Warm up and run up

Wait for the oil temperature to reach a minimum of 50 Deg. C (122 Deg. F) before taking off or running up to a high RPM

 



You have to remember the HKS is not an air cooled engine (at least not primarily), it's an oil cooled engine. Oil is circulated by three oil pumps (one for pressure, two for scavenge) through the cylinder heads just as coolant is circulated by the water pump in the Rotax 912 / 914 engines.

 



Rick



On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 9:30 PM, Robert Laird <rlaird(at)cavediver.com (rlaird(at)cavediver.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   But what about when taxiing and idling on the ground when it's hot outside?



On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 9:22 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		  Robert, I'm in Kansas. It gets pretty hot here and I don't have any problems. CHT's run 300 to 305 in cruise, limit is 338. EGT's run mid 1100's to 1200. Oil runs in the 180's.  



Rick

 

	
 



   [/b] 	
[b]

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:32 am Post subject: Re: HKS flight

Larry,



Nice photos. I live in the suburbs on a 60x100 lot so these way-out-in-the-booneys photos always amaze me.



Couple of questions:

How far away is your nearest neighbor? 

What are the 5.0 and 5 (integer) on your EIS measuring? I know the others... I think.



do not archive

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:32 am Post subject: Re: HKS flight

 	  NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: 	
		  Larry/All

  

 Great report. 

  

 The HKS is a great engine. I'm a bit surprised  there aren't more flying. I saw a nice Kolb Slingshot at Sun N Fun last year  with a HKS. Rotax makes some great engines but with almost total dominance of  the market they have gotten out of hand with their pricing and have failed to  produce a small 4 stroke for the smaller airplanes.

	




Well, looking at greensky's site, I see the HKS is up to almost 10 grand now. 10 grand gets you back into the neighborhood of the competition and kind of starts the whole problem with excessive cost all over again.

That's about 75% of the cost of the 912 80hp for example, the 503 can be had with a gearbox for half that, etc.....



Pretty disappointing if you ask me, and not the right direction to go in if you really want to try to displace Rotax....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

fs2kolb(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:52 am Post subject: HKS flight

Close to 12 grand to install an HKS on a FireStar II when you add the exhaust, oil tank, oil cooler, mounting hardware and every thing else. 

 

 

 --

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:03 am Post subject: HKS flight

-especially since you can now buy a dandy, ready to fly complete used  

airplane for that $$$$$$

BB



On 15, Jan 2009, at 10:32 AM, lucien wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote:

> Larry/All

>

>  Great report.

>

>  The HKS is a great engine. I'm a bit surprised  there aren't more  

> flying. I saw a nice Kolb Slingshot at Sun N Fun last year  with a  

> HKS. Rotax makes some great engines but with almost total  

> dominance of  the market they have gotten out of hand with their  

> pricing and have failed to  produce a small 4 stroke for the  

> smaller airplanes.

>

 Well, looking at greensky's site, I see the HKS is up to almost 10  

 grand now. 10 grand gets you back into the neighborhood of the  

 competition and kind of starts the whole problem with excessive  

 cost all over again.

 That's about 75% of the cost of the 912 80hp for example, the 503  

 can be had with a gearbox for half that, etc.....



 Pretty disappointing if you ask me, and not the right direction to  

 go in if you really want to try to displace Rotax....



 LS



 --------

 LS

 Titan II SS





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 24902#224902

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:06 am Post subject: Re: HKS flight

 	  fs2kolb(at)aol.com wrote: 	
		  Close to 12 grand to install an HKS on a FireStar II when you add the exhaust, oil tank, oil cooler, mounting hardware and every thing else. 

 

 

 -- 	




That's more than the plane, isn't it?

Now to be fair, this is true of the 912 too, you have to add exhaust and radiators, etc.



But, more to the point of the HKS's competition, having owned and flown an FSII with the 503 (which comes with everything you need in the box), I'd personally be hard pressed to justify about a doubling in price for the HKS. 



The 503 with a 3.47:1 C box is around 6 large. It'll run for about 450 to 500 hours. Complete rebuild is in the 2 grand range and the C box will last as-is for probably 3 engines. Fuel burn on the FSII will be higher, but will still only be around 3gph.



Dunno..... I personally still think the 503 is a strong contender for the money........ And it's the proven motor for the FSII...........



So again, I'm pretty disappointed in the cost of the HKS. 12 large installed is a lot for a 60hp engine.......



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:01 am Post subject: HKS flight

Lucien



I didn't realize the HKS got that expensive. The HKS is a fine engine that 

will give its owners peace of mind that it will not let them down and that 

is worth some of the extra cost. The problem here is that again there is no 

competition, We need alternatives.



When fuel prices come back up fuel burn will be a issue again. Most of the 

503 powered FSIIs that I fly with burn about 4 gallons and hour and a bit 

more if they are trying to keep up with my VW powered MKIIIC burning 4 

gallons per hour at 74MPH.



I also didn't realize a 503 was $6,000!!!!! I rest my case......



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:20 am Post subject: HKS flight

> I didn't realize the HKS got that expensive.  >

 	  Quote: 	
		   I also didn't realize a 503 was $6,000!!!!! I rest my case......



 Rick Neilsen


	




Rick N:



Nothing is cheap anymore.



Do a quick search for outboard motor prices in the 50 to 100 hp range, two 

and four stroke.  You will be amazed how much these engines cost, especially 

when one considers the number of "big" manufacturers and the large market 

for them.



I burned a solid 4.0 gph at 5,000 rpm with my 80 hp 912, producing 80 mph in 

my mkIII.  5.0 gph at 5,000 rpm with my 100 hp 912, producing 85 mph.  I am 

not complaining about fuel burn.  I am willing to pay the extra price for 

reliability and performance.  If I had to sit on the edge of my seat the 

entire time I was flying my mkIII, I'd just as soon stay home.



I learned a long time ago that my flying hobby was for fun.  When I get to 

the point that I can not afford to fly, it will probably already have gotten 

to the point that it is no longer fun.



john h

mkIII - Balmy 41F and sun at hauck's holler.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Mnflyer

Joined: 15 May 2006
Posts: 78

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:48 am Post subject: Re: HKS flight

Cooling of the HKS is not a problem as posted the engine cyl heads are oil cooled, in 300+ hrs I've never had a cooling problem, in fact I can now fly in much hotter temps than I could with the Rotax 582.

As for cost of the engine yes the HKS is now near $12000.00, the Rotax 912 is now near $20000.00 and the cost of a new 503 is near $7100.00. The cost per hour to operate the HKS is less than 1/2 of what it costs to operate the 582 . Having flown both engine for 300 hrs each I know this from my records and by my records my HKS is now free after 300 hrs of operation VS the 582 considering I would now be looking at another $3000.00 overhaul bill and the increased fuel costs (4.5 gph vs 3 gph), my HKS still has 700 hrs to go till overhaul, and when comparing operating cost one has to go by the manufactures TBO not what someone has gotten out of their engine and Rotax has a 300 hr TBO the HKS has 1000 hrs.

When I had a 503 powered Challenger fuel consumption was 3.8 gph day in and day out.

_________________
GB
MNFlyer
Flying a HKS Kitfox III

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