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Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts
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WillUribe(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:33 am Post subject: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

Hi Jimmy,

 Thanks for the heads up, found my A3-10 bolts a little worn so I replaced  them before I flew yesterday.

  

 Regards,

Will Uribe

 FireStar II

 El Paso, TX

 http://gtalexander.home.att.net/kolb.html

 

  

 Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499.

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zeprep251(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:31 am Post subject: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

If these bolts are left loose,vibration makes them spin.Using a spacer on the bolt,if you don't fold it frequently,allows you to put the bolt in very light tension.If you fold it ,you have to be sure the clearances do not change before you add any tension or you introduce bending  forces.By shaking it up and down during your preflight check,you can even tell when it wears through the cad plating .

 

   

 

   

 

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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:48 am Post subject: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

zeprep251 C (do you not sign your name?)

 

  You can NOT add a spacer to the forward horizontal stabilizer attach bolts (to put the bolt in very light tension).  The entire stabilizer slides forward and backwards every time the elevator is moved up or down.  You will break something immediately C if you remove the ability of the stabilizer to slide for and aft.

 

Mike Welch

MkIII



To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

Date: Sun C 1 Feb 2009 11:13:31 -0500

From: zeprep251(at)aol.com

If these bolts are left loose Cvibration makes them spin.Using a spacer on the bolt Cif you don't fold it frequently Callows you to put the bolt in very light tension.If you fold it  Cyou have to be sure the clearances do not change before you add any tension or you introduce bending  forces.By shaking it up and down during your preflight check Cyou can even tell when it wears through the cad plating .





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slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:21 am Post subject: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

do you then become a weight shift vehicle?

BB

DO NOT ARCHIVE



On 1, Feb 2009, at 12:43 PM, Mike Welch wrote:



[quote]

 zeprep251, (do you not sign your name?)



   You can NOT add a spacer to the forward horizontal stabilizer  

 attach bolts (to put the bolt in very light tension).  The entire  

 stabilizer slides forward and backwards every time the elevator is  

 moved up or down.  You will break something immediately, if you  

 remove the ability of the stabilizer to slide for and aft.



 Mike Welch

 MkIII



 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

 Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 11:13:31 -0500

 From: zeprep251(at)aol.com

 If these bolts are left loose,vibration makes them spin.Using a  

 spacer on the bolt,if you don't fold it frequently,allows you to  

 put the bolt in very light tension.If you fold it ,you have to be  

 sure the clearances do not change before you add any tension or you  

 introduce bending  forces.By shaking it up and down during your  

 preflight check,you can even tell when it wears through the cad  

 plating .





 --

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:18 pm Post subject: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

Sorry Mike,

      I used fuel line to space it on the FS. On the MK-3 it's all stainless tabs and it wears the bolt plating before the stainless,but I can put a little tension on the tangs with the nyloc nut.I still lube it and everything else that moves.The tail wheel is the most problem with dirt.

                    Gary Aman MK-3 Jab 2200 405hrs

 

   

 

   

 

 --

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:34 pm Post subject: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

Gary,

 

  As I understood your description of "spacers", I got the impression you might not have been 

aware of the stabilizer's fore/aft movement.  If you are aware, great.  I thought you meant metal sleeves as spacers.  This would cause bad juju. (Swahili for "Oh crap!")

 

  Does using fuel line allow for easy lubrication of this attachment point?  I guess as long as you completely dissasemble the pieces periodically, and clean any dirt, etc, and then reassemble 

all the clean lubed pieces, this would keep the bolts in good condition for a long time.

 

  It has been awhile since I have observed the attach point movement.  If I recall correctly, it's about a half an inch. (No, I don't think this qualifies as weight shift.)  Will the fuel line compress easily and sufficiently to work okay?

 

Mike Welch

MkIII

Turbo GEO engine being assembled

 

BTW.  It should be appreciated by all that Jimmie brought this to everyone's attention.  With a couple of others guys showing similar wear, maybe we should make a point of replacing all wearable bolts every 2nd annual, or whatever works out long before a bolt becomes too weak to be safe. 



________________________________

[quote] To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

 Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 19:15:50 -0500

 From: zeprep251(at)aol.com

 Sorry Mike,



 I used fuel line to space it on the FS. On the MK-3 it's all stainless tabs and it wears the bolt plating before the stainless,but I can put a little tension on the tangs with the nyloc nut.I still lube it and everything else that moves.The tail wheel is the most problem with dirt.



 Gary Aman MK-3 Jab 2200 405hrs





 --

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:07 pm Post subject: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

>  It has been awhile since I have observed the attach point movement.  If 

I recall correctly, it's about a half an inch. (No, I don't think this 

qualifies as weight shift.)

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Mike Welch


	




Mike W:



If the elevator hinge pin and elvator control mechanism are rigged 

correctly, there will be no movement in the inboard end of the horizontal 

stabilizer.  My right horizontal stabilizer doesn't move fore and aft. 

However, the left one does about an 1/8 inch at full travel.  I couldn't get 

two of them the same.



One half inch of fore and aft travel in the inboard end of the horizontal 

stabilizer is a tad excessive.  As Bob B remarked, "May be bordering on 

weight shift."



I think Jimmy Y has a unique problem based on an engine hard mounted to the 

airframe.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:35 pm Post subject: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

John H.

 

  As I said, it has been a long time.  It may as be as long as 1 year since I even had the 

tail assembly attached, let alone look at the motion of the horiz. stab. movement.  The fact is, it's been so long ago, I can't remember when I noticed the movement at that location.

 

  It is entirely possible it is MUCH less than 1/2".  Maybe it was more than 1/8", can't 

remember exactly......

 

  I just went out and measured the elevator mechanism that mounts the rear of the horiz. stab.

Fore and aft motion is VERY close to 1/8" to 3/16" max.  Seemed like it was more.  My memory,

along with an ever increasing list of other things, is getting worse all the time.

 

  Primarily, my response to Gary was to point out that the forward stabilizer attach point did not just allow for folding, which could permit for tight bushings.  If a person weren't aware of the fore/aft movement, and put in spacers, well, that would not be a good gameplan.

 

Mike Welch

MkIII 



----------------------------------------

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

 Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 22:06:11 -0600



 

> It has been awhile since I have observed the attach point movement. If

 I recall correctly, it's about a half an inch. (No, I don't think this

 qualifies as weight shift.)

>

> Mike Welch

 Mike W:



 If the elevator hinge pin and elvator control mechanism are rigged

 correctly, there will be no movement in the inboard end of the horizontal

 stabilizer. My right horizontal stabilizer doesn't move fore and aft.

 However, the left one does about an 1/8 inch at full travel. I couldn't get

 two of them the same.



 One half inch of fore and aft travel in the inboard end of the horizontal

 stabilizer is a tad excessive. As Bob B remarked, "May be bordering on

 weight shift."



 I think Jimmy Y has a unique problem based on an engine hard mounted to the

 airframe.



 john h

 mkIII

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zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:26 am Post subject: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

Mike,

   Good point.I Never considered that movement,only the folding action.Used the soft yellow 1/4" line,but had to extend the support upward about 1"with 1/8"4130 plates and steel spacers to help the trim.Only used the spacers for a couple hours before modifying the mount.I may have run into trouble if I had kept them in.The MK-3 has stainless brackets and it's easy to tension lightly.I only have wear on the passenger side bolt.I have changed it twice in 200hrs.I thought the higher rpm ,3100,may be rattling things around back there.I can remove almost all the free play with a new bolt.The plating must be softer than the stainless.

                                                    Thanks, G. Aman 

 

   

 

   

 

 --

Jimmy Young

Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 182
Location: Missouri City, TX

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:34 am Post subject: Re:Re: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

>>I think Jimmy Y has a unique problem based on an engine hard mounted to the airframe.<<



John,



I do appreciate and have high respect for your input. I'll keep a close eye on my plane for any evidence of vibration problems. 



Regarding the grooved bolts I mentioned: Back in late '07, after I had owned the FS for a couple of months, I was rehearsing the fold up procedure and noticed the bottom 3/16" bolt that holds the flying wires was grooved out about the same amount as the ones I replaced last week. At that time, the only engine ever on the plane had been a 503. Since that bolt and the top ones I replaced are castle nutted, and unless they are snugged up a bit tight, they are going to spin. Since it also hapenend to that bolt, that wear pattern can develop with either engine. It could be the spin of the bolts that wore the grooves in both cases, but I don't know for sure.



I'm no vibration expert. I can only go by feel, and I do not feel any more vibration with this engine than I did with the 503. It is a different feel, not the high-frequency vibration the 503 put out, but a lower-level vibration. Makes sense, the RPM's are around 55% of what the 503 turned at cruise. I do not know if that would make a difference with regards to metal fatigue or not, but if anyone knows much about it, feel free to chime in.



I know I am flying a Kolb with a non-typical engine, and there is only one other Kolb I am aware of with the same engine mounted the same way. I don't get to bounce a lot of ideas or experiences off fellow Kolb pilots with the same set-up, so it's a lonely world out here. I'll be a cautious, meticulous PIC and do the best I can. Hope to see you again at Nauga this summer, if not sooner. 



Jimmy Y

_________________
Jimmy Young
Missouri City, TX
Kolb FS II/HKS 700

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:59 am Post subject: Re: Check your Horiz. Stblzr bolts

My horizontal stab front attachment bolts show zero wear after about 200 hours.  It is very important for the tail attachment to be able to slide on these bolts, if not the attachment will fatigue due to bending and fail      



I keep this area as well as all other moving areas well greased.  Not only do I have zero wear, my flight controls feel like they are on bearings.   Someone mentioned the issue of grease attracting dirt, which is not ideal, but this just has not been a problem.   Given the reports in this thread, metal to metal wear is a problem and is bad.  



So for the grease causing more wear theory, it is just not happening.  There is a saying  " Results trump theory every time ".    I will go with what is actually happening rather than what someone thinks might be a probelm.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

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